Hokkien A Post
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Hope that you understand why I asked those question above.
Because 1) I am not a native Penang Hokkien speaker 2) Tone-sandhi and non-tone-sandhi occurence in your transliteration will confuse me, because I am used to the way of transliterating by äº”åº¦éŸ³é˜¶æ ‡éŸ³ which explicitly marks the tone contours, therefore any tone-sandhi and non-tone-sandhi is explicitly marked without having to guess. Therefore for all my transliteration below, I have maintained by stand to mark the original tones of the words which I know, so that tone-sandhi can be derived by the reader himself/herself.
I have completed reading the 3 pages, and one important thing I noted, is that the speaker uses a form of Hokkien - spoken in Penang, based on Chiangchiu variety, and lastly mixed sparingly with Malay and Mandarin Chinese usage. Therefore I will touch upon these points below for your reference. For those clearly explained portions by other forummers, I may or may not add on or modify their explanation when I see it deem fit.
I will refer to the post in the order from top to bottom, represented by Author::Date::Time
Post by SimL::Fri Mar 27, 2009::3:24pm
in Buddhism, frequently religions (whether be it ancient ones or contemporary ones) which focuses on the external means to salvation are referred as 外é�“æ•™ (as opposed to Buddhism which focuses on the inner self to salvation). I transcribe as gua7-to7-kau3. It doesn't match your gua3-toh4-kau3 as your toh4 is 阴入 with a -h glottal stop final, unless you want to believe the speaker is speaking an approximate or inaccurate form. (In Amoy äº”åº¦éŸ³é˜¶æ ‡éŸ³ pronunciation, gua7-to7-kau3 will be read as gua(21)-to(21)-kau(21) whereas your gua3-toh4-kau3 will be read as gua(53)-to(53)-kau(21) as the toh(4) loses the -h ending and changes to (53) tone after tone-sandhi)
tiau5-ti5. i need you to confirm whether your tiau5 represents the original tone or the tone-sandhi tone. if it represents the tone-sandhi tone, kindly confirm why you chose tiau5 instead of tiau1 since both gives the actual äº”åº¦éŸ³é˜¶æ ‡éŸ³ pronunciation as tiau(22).
thiN1 e to7/to3. in Buddhism, the six realms of samsara is referred as �. therefore this represents 天的� thiN1-e5-to7, which means the "Heaven Realm".
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Post by duaaagiii::Fri Mar 27, 2009::6:34pm
If the meaning is really "on purpose, intentionally", then thiau1-ti2 超� will be the most accurate
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Post by SimL::Mon Mar 30, 2009::11:48am
Context: "i be chut-si khO e to". In Buddhism, the 3 upper realms (Heaven, Asura, Human) of samsara are considered "fortunate" realms, while the 3 lower realms (Ghost, Animal, Hell) of samsara are considered "unfortunate" realms. therefore, the meaning should be "he will be reborn [in] a bitter realm" 伊欲出世苦的�.
regarding pak4/pah4(not sandhied)-ak4, the nearest match would be pa2-ak4. 把�. = confidence
cu7-jien5. -ChiangChiu variety / cu7-lien5. -Amoy Variety / tsɯ(22)-lian(24). -ChuanChiu variety. 自然. = natural. his variety of cu7-ien5 probably stems from the corruption from Cantonese 然 yin (evidenced by the fact of loss of consonant initial from this particular word which is not found in any variety of Minnan and other common Southern Chinese Dialects other than Cantonese)
regarding thO7(sandhied)-hui1, the nearest match would be 土匪 thO2-hui2. = local gangsters
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Post by SimL::Mon Mar 30, 2009::5:18pm
regarding co3-ci(t)8-E7, �蜀下 = all at once / to get together
regarding ki3-ti5 (memory), like what you have mentioned, è®°æŒ� is correct. è®°æ± is also acceptable
regarding siong5-siong5, it is true that it is the literary pronunciation of 常常, and it seems the speaker borrows this from the Amoy or ChuanChiu variety of pronunciation. the usual ChiangChiu variety is siang5-siang5. the colloquial equivalent is also true as mentioned by the subsequent forummers, as 定定 tiaN7-tiaN7, and it is also equally true in Singapore and not Taiwan, tiam7-tiam7 is used (mentioned by Andrew and SimL).
regarding cam5-si5, the nearest match would be æš‚æ—¶ ciam7-si5. = temporary
regarding si1-cin2, the speaker wanted to borrow the Mandarin 细� = bacteria (which looks like longish worm shaped), and approximated into his Hokkien pronunciation
regarding na2 ka1, as duaaagiii have mentioned in Taiwan it is 敢若 ka(nn)2-na2, as well as in Singapore too, we use 干若 kan1-na2 instead of na2-ka1
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Post by SimL::Mon Apr 06, 2009::4:33pm
in Singapore, there is only �摆 tak8-pai2. there is no ta-mai and ta-ta-pai. in Singapore Hokkien, there is a term for "usually", which is ��时 tak8-put4-si5
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Post by SimL::Mon Jun 15, 2009::11:43am
for 神通 to mean "(performing) miracles", the preferred pronunciation for 通 would be (sin5)-thong1 instead of tong1
regarding chu3/7, it is 处 chu3, and ho2-chu3 means "benefit(s)" while bo5-ho2-chu3 means "disadvantage(s)"
regarding cin1-pun2, there is a small possibility that it may have been an error of æ ¹æœ¬ kin1-pun2 = root ?
regarding è°›, the pronunciation should be te3. the speaker might be influenced by the Mandarin usage for non-common terminology.
regarding kui2/3-jin3/7, the closet match would be 贵人 kui3-jin5 = guardian angels = kind souls
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Post by SimL::Tue Jun 16, 2009::4:27pm
in Singapore, 办法 is also pronounced like yours as pan7-huat4. the speaker's variety might be an error in discerning between 阴入 and 阳入 of huat.
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Last post by SimL::Mon Jun 29, 2009::11:58am
供养 is a specialized Buddhist terminology. in ChiangChiu variety, 养 is iang2. therefore the speaker may have adopted the standard Amoy variety's pronunciation of iong2, for non-daily used words. also, the 供's pronunciation is most probably either influenced by Cantonese or Mandarin pronunciation due to the non-existence of the "i" mid-vowel, for Hokkien's pronunciation should be either kiong or king. (tones can be either 1 or 3 for both)
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I'm absolutely overwhelmed by the quality of your responses! Thank you EVER SO MUCH! :-)!!!
I'll need some time to go through your replies and digest them. Here are some initial responses though.
#) Yes, definitely this is Penang Hokkien. This is one of the reasons that these lectures are of particular interest to me, as PgHk is my native mode of Hokkien. I have some Amoy-speaking relatives, which is why I can understand it, and I can even *make* myself speak it if necessary, but it always feels a bit artificial to me (I mean for myself, not for others, of course). But in these lectures, very genuine PgHk is being spoken, so I can extend my limited vocabulary in a natural way.
#) Sorry about the tone marks. I try (as far as I can) to write non-sandhi, i.e. citation tones, even when (obviously) the sandhi-tones are being said on the recording. This leads to some mistakes on my part, because PgHk sometimes leaves out "-h" in non-final syllables of compounds. This means that what I hear is a non-ru-tone (in non-final position), where the citation form might have a ru-tone. Apparently, this is what happened with (your) gua7-to7-kau3 vs. (my) gua3-toh4-kau3. I must have mentally (and, in this case, incorrectly) re-inserted an "-h" which I thought must have been dropped in non-final position. Your interpretation of this fits perfectly, and I will adopt it.
#) "intentionally, purposely"
>> tiau5-ti5. i need you to confirm whether your tiau5
>> represents the original tone or the tone-sandhi tone.
>> if it represents the tone-sandhi tone, kindly confirm
>> why you chose tiau5 instead of tiau1 since both gives
>> the actual äº”åº¦éŸ³é˜¶æ ‡éŸ³ pronunciation as tiau(22).
This is again my ignorance. I can't tell the difference between tone-3 and tone-7, and need to check the same character in final vs non-final position to find out. For example, if I hear a final syllable which I'm not sure is 3 or 7, then I put it into non-final position. If it changes tone, then it's 3, and if it doesn't change tone, then it's 7.
In this particular case I hear *sandhi-tone* 3/7. Now, this can come from citation tone-1, tone-5, or tone-7. I couldn't find a hanzi for this tiau in Douglas/Barclay, so I couldn't know which of these it was. I suppose I made a guess, and made the wrong guess. Again, apologies.
The speaker actually says “tiauN1/5/7-ti5”, which I thought might be related to “tiuN1-ti5” å¼µæŒ� (which *is* listed in Douglas/Barclay) [D p508/p490; B p232/- “intentionally”]. As PgHk “-iauN” corresponds to Amoy “-iuN”, I should have made this connection, and chosen tone-1. Really don't understand why I didn't. BTW, my parents tell me that PgHk also has the form “tiong1-ti5”.
Does this mean that there is 超� for "tiau1-ti5", and 張� for "tiauN1/tiuN1/tiong1-ti5"?
Once again, thank you. You are an amazing resource for Hokkien, and you've helped me SO MUCH.
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Oh, one more small thing:
>> for 神通 to mean "(performing) miracles", the preferred
>> pronunciation for 通 would be (sin5)-thong1 instead of tong1
Yes, in fact, the speaker DOES say thong1, not tong1. It was purely a mistake in my transcription.
I noticed it myself a couple of days ago, but didn't correct it on the Forum because there was so little response to my requests anyway.
Also, apologies for the large amount of bolding in part of my previous reply. I cut and pasted part of your text which started with bolded words, and it seems to have retained the bolding for the rest of the lines.
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>> pockmarked 猫猫 niau-niau
>> pockmarked man 猫� niau-bīn
>> face pockmarked �猫 bīn niau
>> much pockmarked 猫�巴 niau pi-pa
The term I knew as a child was "mO1/5/7-peng1". I didn't know any of these before.
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test bolding on and off.
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#) pa2-ak4. 把�. = confidence
Yes, Barclay lists the meanings “able, self-confident”.
“lang2 ceng-sin u e si, ko(h) a-bue si koh. lang2 ci-E be si e si, ceng-sing - na-ka a-mO kong “coma” liau la. na-kong m-cai lang5 liau la. m-cai lang5 e si, lang2 bo than control liau lo. bo than... bo pa-ak liau lo.”
which I translate as:
“When we still have [our] consciousness, we still haven’t died. At the moment when we are about to die, [our] consciousness - like the Europeans say [is in a] “coma” already. Like say we don’t recognize [other] people any more. When we don’t recognize [other] people any more, [then] we don’t have any control [over ourselves] any more - [we] don’t manage to... no hold/grasp [on the physical world] any more.”
BTW, the etymology page (I’ll call it EP for short in the future) http://www.internationalscientific.org gives “pah4” as one of the pronunciations of 把. (it also gives “pa2”). To my ears, both “pah4” and “pa2” would give a sandhied-tone which sounds very similar - 53 or 55 or 44 (the citation forms of course sound very different to me). So, whether one thinks of it as “pah4-ak4” or “pa2-ak4”, the result (especially with the dropped -h) would sound very similar to me.
#) cu7-jien5 自然
Your explanation makes total sense.
#) æš‚æ—¶ ciam7-si5
Indeed. In the meantime, I had also found it in Douglas.
The “cam7” vs “ciam7” with the dropping of the “-i-” is a known alternative pronunciation given by EP. In general, this speaker has quite a number of dropped “-i-” anyway: “cong” where one might expect “ciong”, etc.
#) si1-cin2, the speaker wanted to borrow the Mandarin 细� = bacteria
Your explanation makes total sense.
#) cin1-pun2, there is a small possibility that it may have been an error of æ ¹æœ¬ kin1-pun2 = root ?
I re-listened to the recording played very loudly, and indeed, he does say “kin1-pun2”. You’re brilliant!!!
I would never have stumbled across this solution, because PgHk “kin1” is Amoy “kun1”. Once you made the suggestion, I looked up Douglas, and could find “kun1-pun2”, with the meaning “origin”.
Also, my Mandarin-English dictionary gives æ ¹æœ¬ “1. foundation, base. 2. basic, fundamental, essential, cardinal.”
I originally had:
“lang5 na-si kong ciaN-ciaN gian-kiu hut-li, liau lu beng-pek in-ko, a beng-pek ci-le si-seng-ti, cin-pun e hut-li ... ”
= “if say a person truly studies Buddhist teachings, and you understand [about] karma, [and] you also understand these Four Noble Truths - [the] truly original Buddhist teachings ...”
Now that I have:
“lang5 na-si kong ciaN-ciaN gian-kiu hut-li, liau lu beng-pek in-ko, a beng-pek ci-le si-seng-ti, kin-pun e hut-li ... ”
would the following be a good translation of the sentence?:
= “if say a person truly studies Buddhist teachings, and you understand [about] karma, [and] you also understand these Four Noble Truths - [the] original/fundamental Buddhist teachings ...”
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Everything else I (also) agree with, but it seems silly to keep saying “X, yes, I agree; Y, yes, I agree; Z, yes I agree; etc”, so I’ve just noted the most outstanding ones I agree with, and provided some additional explanation or comment, and asked a few additional questions.
That’s all my responses for the moment. You’ve really helped to solve these stubborn problems. I’ve been facing them for months now, and there seemed to be nobody who knew the answers.
Thanks again. Lots more to come in the future!
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Originally posted by SimL:
>> pockmarked 猫猫 niau-niau
>> pockmarked man 猫� niau-bīn
>> face pockmarked �猫 bīn niau
>> much pockmarked 猫�巴 niau pi-pa
The term I knew as a child was "mO1/5/7-peng1". I didn't know any of these before.
猫猫 niau-niau also means stingy.
猫�巴 niau pi-pa also means careless. (bo chap)
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Bangulzai,
Can you help with this sentence?
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Originally posted by SimL:
Bangulzai,
Can you help with this sentence?
which sentence?
regarding 超� thiau1-ti5 (i made a mistake above as "ti2"), it means "on purpose, intentionally", while 張� tiuN1-ti5, it means "beware of, alert of, take care of"
regarding "pockmarked" = 猫 niau1, it is. Meaning "uneven face with holes". ~�巴 ~pi1-pa1 is a derogatory suffix here.
regarding mO5-peng1, it is used in Singapore as frequently as 猫 niau1, although I have not found it in any Hokkien Dictionaries that I have yet. I deduce the etymology to be 磨冰, as "scraped ice" presents the same quality as a rough surface akin to the rough face. Although mO5-peng1 sounds more of a Cantonese origin to me than Hokkien. I have no source at the moment.
regarding 猫 niau1 = "stingy", is correct. I don't use 猫�巴 niau1 pi1-pa1 = "careless (bo chap)", no doubt it looks like an extended semantic usage.
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Sigh! I had a sentence nicely highlighted and everything, and it was in the input box, but after I had clicked on "save reply", it just disappeared. Not sure why I have such a lot of trouble with this site.
Will try and re-work the sentence another time.
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Originally posted by SimL:
Sigh! I had a sentence nicely highlighted and everything, and it was in the input box, but after I had clicked on "save reply", it just disappeared. Not sure why I have such a lot of trouble with this site.
Will try and re-work the sentence another time.
i suggest next time when you are crafting a long and complicated reply, select all text in the input box by pressing Ctrl-A and copy by pressing Ctrl-C. In the event the reply lost or fails, repeat by pasting the reply again and send.
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Indeed, a very good suggestion.
I generally do this (this isn't the only site which either crashes or loses messages completely when one clicks on "send"), but this time it was only 1-2 questions, and I forgot, and spontaneously just entered it into the box. Once in the box, I started bolding etc, and it turned out to be quite a lot of work, but by that time I had forgotten that I didn't have a copy elsewhere.
The next set of questions is now in its own file :-).
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Well, it's already managed to lose this once.... let's see if the second attempt succeeds.
Hi Bangulzai,
Here is the next lot of questions. The question which was lost for the previous posting is now included in this list.
Thanks.
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#) You wrote �蜀下 = all at once / to get together.
Why not å�šä¸€ä¸‹? Are you using the 蜀 to write “chit” in order to distinguish it from 一 “it4”, or is it meant to be a different word?
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#) “hong-hiam” and “chut-siaN”
i kong: se-cun a, i kong: wa ti siauN, na-si kong ci(t) jit, wa hong-hiam si, na-kong wa chut-siaN, hO lau-hO ka wa si. a-si bo, thO-hui phah wa si. a-si bo, hO bE-chia long-tioh wa, hong-hiam si.
= “He said: Revered One, he said: I was thinking, if say one day I die a <violent> death, like say, I <leave the city?>, [and] I get bitten to death by a tiger. Or else, I’m beaten to death by a bandit. Or else, I’m hit by a chariot, and I die a <violent> death.
My questions are:
1. “hong-hiam” apparently means “dangerous”, but a “dangerous death” doesn’t make much sense in English. Would a “violent death” be a reasonable translation?
2. Is “chut-siaN” 出城 “to leave the city”? “出城” yields nearly 2,000,000 hits on Google.
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#) “u7-tan(g)-si5”: 有<X>?時 (= “sometimes”) and “kong5”.
cin-nia ce lang, i-lang u-tan(g)-si bo beng-pek hut-li, lang2 kiaN5 bo-tioh e lO liau, liau, khO lai e si, lang2 toh kong5 liau la.
= “Many people, they sometimes don’t understand Buddhist teaching, [if] we have been walking the wrong road, then, when suffering comes, we are <kong5>.”
My questions are:
1. What is the character for “tan” or “tang” here? The sandhi-tone is tone-3 or tone-7. This is quite a common way of saying “sometimes” in Penang.
2. What does “kong5” mean, and what is the character for it? I only know “to rush” for “kong5”, but that doesn’t quite fit the context. Perhaps it means “we are in a hurry to try and get rid of the suffering”?
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#) “chit1(sandhi-tone)-tho5” or “tit1(sandhi-tone)-tho5”
This is the well-known Hokkien word for “to play” (as in children). Do you know the characters for it?
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#) The names of some Buddhist texts and “gO-cheng”
te-it ca e keng - tui wa-lang e nan2-chuan2 - hut kong cha-put-to gO-cheng e keng. ti CI-le gO-e keng: “chang2 bu4”, “zhong1 bu4”, “xiang1-yin1 bu4”, “zheng1/4-zi4 bu4” - gO-cheng e keng.
I think all 5 of the above are quoted from Mandarin, so the tone numbers here are Mandarin tone numbers, not POJ ones.
1. What are these texts: “chang2 bu4”, “zhong1 bu4”, “xiang1-yin1 bu4”, “zheng1/4-zi4 bu4”?
2. What is the “Nan2-Chuan2”?
I think I may have worked out what “nan2-chuan2” is. In www.buddhism-dict.net/ I managed to find this reference:
Article title 部派佛教 Nik�ya Buddhism
A name for the sectarian form of Buddhism that developed in India starting from the time around 100 years after the passing of Ś�kyamuni, during the reign of King Aśoka. The first major division was between the conservative (Sthavirav�da/Therav�da) 上座部 and the progressive Mah�s�ṃghikas 大衆部. These two main groups further split into smaller sects, distinguished from each other mainly by their variant interpretations of the Buddhist doctrine, and especially the rules of discipline. Accounts of the nature of this schismatic process, and the exact names and number of schools varies according to the source. According to the account of the so-called Northern tradition (北傳, 北傳分派說) the two main divisions branched into twenty sub-sects �乘二�部, and according to the Southern tradition, (�傳, �傳分派說), eighteen �乘�八部.Also 諸部. [cmuller]
What do you think of this?
3. I’m puzzled by the “gO-cheng e keng”. Surely he doesn’t mean that there were 5,000 sutras? I’m wondering if perhaps “cheng” is another measure word, so there were 5 (earliest) sutras?
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#) “nie4-tuan2”. Everywhere, the speaker says “nie4-pan2” for “nirvana”, but at one single spot, he says “nie4-tuan2” (where the meaning “nirvana” would fit). Could this be a mispronunciation, or is there another term “nie4-tuan2” with a related or similar meaning? Here also, “nie4-pan2” and “nie4-tuan2” are pinyin, with Mandarin tones.
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#) What does “lu1/5/7-lai5” mean in the following sentence?
“in-ui i-lang khuaN-tioh lu-lai ai jip nie-pan liau, liau i-lang cun-keng”
= “Because they have seen that <lu1/5/7-lai5> is going to enter Nirvana, and [they wish to express] their reverence”.
As explained earlier, I hear “lu3(sandhi-tone)-lai5”, so I don’t know what the citation of “lu” should be. Could “lu-lai” mean “soon” or something like that? Or is it a noun - another word for the Buddha?
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#) “kok8(sandhi-tone)-thau5”. The word “kok” is a bit unclear on the recording - it might be something else.
“hut kong: he-le si ciaN-ciaN kuan-kip e cun-keng. cin-nia ce lang5..., lang2 siauN lang2 khi cun-keng hut, liau khi <kok4>-thau5, he-le si cun-keng ... he-le si ha-kip e cun-keng”
= “The Buddha said: that is a truly high [level of] reverence. Many people..., we think we go and revere the Buddha, and go and <knock our head (on the ground)>???, that is reverence... [but no,] that is a low [level of] reverence”
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#) “seng1 a1 lO5-han3”
“i-e tO-te cin-nia ce e, seng a-lO-han liau, i kam-guan, i ka jip nie-pan.
= “his disciples, after many of them had become arhats, [only then] was he satisfied, [only then] did he enter Nirvana.”
I think the meaning is clear enough to me, but is “seng a-lO-han” 生阿羅漢 or å�‡é˜¿ç¾…æ¼¢ or 昇阿羅漢?
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#) “k(h)a-huat”
hut e k(h)a-huat haN, si bueh lang2 kiaN5 ho e lO
= “The Buddha’s <kha-huat> is to want us to walk the proper path.”
I think this is 教法, but the speaker seems to say “kha” instead of “ka”. If it is meant to be æ•™, then I should explain that æ•™ is pronounced “kah4” in Penang, and often the “-h” is dropped in non-final position, so it would end up sounding like “ka55(sandhi-tone)-” (here I’m writingäº”åº¦éŸ³é˜¶æ ‡éŸ³). Soothill gives 教法 as “the teaching of the Buddha”, so 佛的教法 is a bit redundant, but does still make sense. The only thing I can’t explain is the “kh-” instead of “k-”. Is there another word, with “kh-” which might make sense in this context?
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#) “hong1/5/7-kau3”
My mother tells me that she’s very familiar with this word, and that it means “Christianity” in general, not “Catholicism”, which is “thien-cu-kau”.
My questions are:
1. What is the character for “hong” in this context? Is it 奉?
2. If so, why can’t I find any references to 奉教 in Google? Is it only used in Hokkien? Is it only used in Malaysian/Singaporean Hokkien?
#) “tiam2-siaN1” = “time”, as in “time”, as in “i bo kang e tiam-siaN” = “at the time that he has no work”.
I can’t find the characters for this. Are they點è�² – this would seem logical, but it surprises me that I can’t find it in Douglas or Barclay?
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OK. That’s it for the moment. Hope you can help. Thanks.
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#) “chit1(sandhi-tone)-tho5” or “tit1(sandhi-tone)-tho5”
This is the well-known Hokkien word for “to play” (as in children). Do you know the characters for it?
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Can trace to old Chinese phrase : 蹉跎 �月 = pastime
蹉跎 chit1-tho5.
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#) “tiam2-siaN1” = “time”, as in “time”, as in “i bo kang e tiam-siaN” = “at the time that he has no work”.
I can’t find the characters for this. Are they點è�² – this would seem logical, but it surprises me that I can’t find it in Douglas or Barclay?
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Tiam2-siaN1 is "o'clock" not time.
Time is si-kan or si jun.
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#) “u7-tan(g)-si5”: 有<X>?時 (= “sometimes”) and “kong5”.
cin-nia ce lang, i-lang u-tan(g)-si bo beng-pek hut-li, lang2 kiaN5 bo-tioh e lO liau, liau, khO lai e si, lang2 toh kong5 liau la.
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有時 u7 si is Hokkien
有当時 u-tan(g)-si is an adaptation from Teochew or North lingo.
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>> Tiam2-siaN1 is "o'clock" not time.
Chew Bakar: which variant of Hokkien do you speak? tiam-sian for "time" (as in 'period of time') is quite normal in PgHk, which is the variant I'm asking about.
"o'clock" is just "tiam2" in PgHk, as in "gO-tiam", "lak-tiam" (=5 o'clock, 6 o'clock). I've never heard of "gO-tiam-siaN", "lak-tiam-siaN" in any variant I know, but it's possible that it's used in other variants.
One of the things I've learnt about Hokkien is that there is a huge variation in usage, even for the most common concepts, like "often", or "happy" etc.
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Originally posted by SimL:
>> Tiam2-siaN1 is "o'clock" not time.
Chew Bakar: which variant of Hokkien do you speak? tiam-sian for "time" (as in 'period of time') is quite normal in PgHk, which is the variant I'm asking about.
"o'clock" is just "tiam2" in PgHk, as in "gO-tiam", "lak-tiam" (=5 o'clock, 6 o'clock). I've never heard of "gO-tiam-siaN", "lak-tiam-siaN" in any variant I know, but it's possible that it's used in other variants.
One of the things I've learnt about Hokkien is that there is a huge variation in usage, even for the most common concepts, like "often", or "happy" etc.
time = 時 and division on the clock = 點. PgHk adapts 點 as 時. Sorry if my o'clock confuse you.
I speak Amoy Hokkien.
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actually your findings are largely correct already.
your work is great.regarding �蜀下 = all at once / to get together, yes, you are right, 蜀 cit8 is written in order to distinguish it from 一 it4, with the same meaning of "one". So far the 闽 languages are the only Chinese dialects that differentiate 2 types of "one" - for counting and literary uses 一 it4, for all other purposes mostly use 蜀 cit8.
regarding hong-hiam, the pronunciation indeed matches 风险 hong1-hiam2 = dangerous. i find it hard to translate it either as "violent" too. the alternative nearest match would be 惶显 hong5-hiaN2 = fearful, which seem to fit the translation ("die a fearful death") but pronunciation-wise i'm afraid not.
regarding chut-siaN, i agree with the other forummers that it should be 出城 chut4-siaN5 = leaving the city. because the city that Buddha resides is 王�城 (R�jagaha), therefore "leaving the city" just means "leaving R�jagaha".
regarding 有当时 u7-tang1-si5, we also use it in Singapore along with 有时 u7-si5 and 有时阵 u7-si5-cun7 for "sometimes". Chew Bakar states the same character.
regarding 狂 kong5, it can mean "to rush" as mentioned by you, the same character with the same pronunciation can also mean "mad / dizzy" as in 头狂狂 thau5-kong5-kong5 = head dizzy, or 人狂狂 lang5-kong5-kong5 = person's awareness or consciouness becomes swayed / abnormal / uncontrollable.
regarding chit4-tho5 or tit4-tho5, I accept Chew Bakar's etymology wholly, even though it's this is the very 1st time I have seen this relationship. I find that 蹉跎 fits nicely both pronunciation-wise and meaning-wise. (no doubt, for 蹉 to become 入声 may at first seem impossible, but since this is a very commonly used word, for it to assimilate the initial consonant of the following character is highly possible. i deduce the change to be from che1-tho5 -> chet4-tho5 -> chit4-tho5 -> tit4-tho5. reason for me choosing 蹉che1 would be the possibility of same pronunciation as its radical 差 che1. and also the frequent interchangeability between "ci" and "chi" and "ti" and "thi" in 闽�). Therefore, Chew Bakar's version of 蹉跎 is way way superior than commonly used versions such as 七桃�佚佗�彳��and "辶+日"迌 forms.
regarding nan2-chuan2, you have got å�—ä¼ which is definitely correct.
regarding the other 4 are the 4 sections (部) of the 阿�(�) (Agama Buddhist Scriptures)- chang2-bu4 = 长部 = also known as 长阿�(�) = Dirgha Agama (in Sanskrit) = Digha Nikaya (in Pali) = Long Discourses
- zhong1-bu4 = ä¸éƒ¨ = also known as ä¸é˜¿å�«(ç»�) = Madhyama Agama (in Sanskrit) = Majjhima Nikaya (in Pali) = Middle-Length Discourses
- xiang1-ying4-bu4 = 相应部 = also known as �阿�(�) = Samyukta Agama (in Sanskrit) = Samyutta Nikaya (in Pali) = Thematically Linked Discourses
- zeng1-zi4-bu4 = 增å—部 = also known as 增一阿å�«(ç»�) = Ekottara Agama (in Sanskrit) = Anguttara Nikaya (in Pali) = Numerical Discourses
gO-cheng is either could be #1) 5000 (sutras) according to context. It does not seem to be 5-(classifier) nor 5-(adjective) because there are only 4 sections of the 阿� mentioned // or either could be #2) a Mandarin pronunciation corruption of the term 五乘gO7-seng7 or ngO2-seng7. in Buddhism, there is a term called 五乘佛法: http://big5.jiexieyin.org/show.aspx?id=1483&cid=100 (reference)
regarding nie4-tuan2, it seems to be a mispronunciation of nie4-pan2 unless proven otherwise
regarding lu5-lai5, it should mean the other word for Buddha, 如�. except in this case the speaker did not use the ChiangChiu version of ju5-lai5 but borrowed from Amoy / ChuanChiu varieties.
regarding kok4-thau5, could it be a Mandarin pronunciation corruption of the term 磕头khap8-thau5 = head touching the ground in respect ?
regarding seng1-a1-lO5-han3, � or 昇 are both acceptable as character variations of the same word
regarding k(h)a-huat, your guess of 教法 makes sense
regarding hong7-kau3 ("Christianity"), your character 奉 is correct. It is a day-to-day usage in Singapore Hokkien. eg. å¥‰æ•™å ‚ hong7-kau3-tng5 = "church" Versus å›žæ•™å ‚hue5-kau3-tng5 = "mosque"
regarding tiam2-siaN1, I have to disagree with Chew Bakar but agree with you that it means "time". 点声 or 點� are both acceptable as character variations of the same words.
for example in Singapore Hokkien:
- ti7-si2 ? = 底时？ = "When?"
- kui2-tiam2 ? = å‡ ç‚¹ï¼Ÿ = "What's the time? (as reflected on the clock / watch)"
- kui2-tiam2-ceng1 ? = å‡ ç‚¹é’Ÿï¼Ÿ = "How many hours is the duration/period?"
- sim2-mih4-tiam2-siaN1 ? = 甚物点声？ = "What's the time? (can be accurate as the clock/watch or can be just an approximate timing such as morning orafternoon or evening but not too far from the present moment)"
- sim2-mih4-si5-kan1 ? = 甚物时间？ = similar to the above sentence but sounds unnatural
- sim2-mih4-si5-cun7 ? = 甚物时阵？ = "What's the time? (far from the present moment or can be a speculated time in the non-immediate past or future)"
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Thanks Bangulzai.
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Chew Bakar: I posted a thank you for your responses yesterday but that disappeared too. I think it's because I'm a new poster and still haven't reached my quota of 20. Then, I have to post more than 5 minutes apart, otherwise it loses my post. I think there's an error message issued, but I don't notice.
In any case, thanks for your input - much valued.
Bangulzai: thank you very much too! Once again, the detail and care of your responses is amazing, and I'm very, very grateful.
I'm very busy at work at the moment (this is my lunchbreak), so I can't have a very close look at the responses. But I'll try and give some feedback in the next few days.
Thanks again to you both. I'm so glad I found this forum and thread :-).
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Originally posted by SimL:
Chew Bakar: I posted a thank you for your responses yesterday but that disappeared too. I think it's because I'm a new poster and still haven't reached my quota of 20. Then, I have to post more than 5 minutes apart, otherwise it loses my post. I think there's an error message issued, but I don't notice.
In any case, thanks for your input - much valued.
Bangulzai: thank you very much too! Once again, the detail and care of your responses is amazing, and I'm very, very grateful.
I'm very busy at work at the moment (this is my lunchbreak), so I can't have a very close look at the responses. But I'll try and give some feedback in the next few days.
Thanks again to you both. I'm so glad I found this forum and thread :-).
Thanks.
I'm not good at Buddhism. Bangulzai knows more and better explain those terminology.
Nice to see youngsters interested in Hokkien. Pleasure to be of some help.
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Chew Bakar: I'm grateful for anybody's contribution and ideas, so thank you, even if you know less about Buddhism than Bangulzai.
Bangulzai: thanks for the list of time-related words.
>> kui2-tiam2-ceng1 ? = å‡ ç‚¹é’Ÿ?
Yes, also used in PgHk. But if the speaker has no particular unit in mind (the answer could be minutes, hours, or even days, weeks, months, etc), then “jua7-ku2” 若久 is also common in PgHk.
I think it's interesting that I actually pronounce it "juah4(sandhi-tone)-ku2", so this re-inforces your theory (in another context) that people can 'incorrectly' insert a stop at the end of a syllable, to make a non-ru-tone into a ru-tone.
>> sim2-mih4-tiam2-siaN1 ? = 甚物点声？ = "What's the time?
>> (can be accurate as the clock/watch or can be just an approximate timing such
>> as morning orafternoon or evening but not too far from the present moment)"
>> sim2-mih4-si5-kan1 ? = 甚物时间？ = similar to the above sentence but
>> sounds unnatural
In PgHk, “ha-mi-tiam-siaN” sounds more natural than “ha-mi-si-kan” too.
>> sim2-mih4-si5-cun7 ? 甚物时阵? and u7-si5-cun7 有时阵
Very interesting to learn these, as I didn’t know them. I was familiar with “cit-cun” and “hit-cun” for “now” and “then” from my Amoy-speaking grandmother (though I didn’t know the character 阵). I used to find it interesting as a child that “now” was “cit-cun” in Amoy and “tong-kim” in PgHk.
I wonder what the characters are for “tong1/5/7-kim1”?
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Chew Bakar:
>> 有当時 u-tan(g)-si is an adaptation from Teochew or North lingo.
I found this a particularly interesting statement.
It fits in with the "well-known" fact that PgHk uses "wa" instead of "gua" for "I". I've been told that this is borrowed from Teochew.
I have to confess that I'd never consciously heard Teochew in my life, and one day, I was in a Buddhist temple, and this nun came up to speak to me. She started babbling on in what I considered to be VERY VERY badly pronounced Hokkien. I could understand most of what she said, but I thought: "Hmmm... perhaps she's from another part of China, and came to live in Penang long after she was an adult, and learnt PgHk late in life, and hence her accent is horrible".
Later, when she had gone away, I said to the person who was with me: "Oh, she had a very strange accent", and he said, "No, she was just speaking Teochew".
I was VERY embarassed that I didn't know this. In fact, it was only at that moment that I realised that I didn't even know what Teochew sounded like.
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Oh I missed out �久 lua7-ku2 / jua7-ku2. A lot of these aspects really shows Penang Hokkien is similar to Singapore Hokkien. A separate character � is used for lua7 / jua7 instead of 若 due to different etymology. � lua7 / jua7 is the conglomeration of 若夥 lioh8-ua7 / jioh8-ua7. There are two secondary evidence which can show this: 1) Till this day in Teochew 若久 jioh8-ku2 is still the form used. 2) Till this day in Hockchew 若夥(久) nuoh8-uai7-(oung5) is still the form used
Regarding the inserting of a stop at the end of a non-ru syllable, it happens commonly to 有 u in the 兴化 Henghwa language (dialect) . Example: 有工 u-kang -> uk-kang, 有侬 u-nang -> ut-nang, æœ‰æ» u-ɬi -> ut-ɬi, 有抽有动 u-thiu-u-tang -> ut-thiu-ut-tang, 有目 u-mah -> up-mah, 有喙 u-chui -> ut-chui
Regarding 声 or � siaN1, it is quantity suffix:
- 斤 kin1 "kati" -> 斤声 kun1-siaN1 "weight"
- 磅 pong7 "pounds" -> 磅声 pong7-siaN1 "weight"
- 点 tiam2 "o'clock" -> 点声 tiam2-siaN1 "time"
- � hue3 "years old" -> �声 hue3-siaN1 "age"
- 范 pan7 "reference" -> 范声 pan7-siaN1 "situation"
- é• lui1 "money" -> é•å£° lui1-siaN1 "cost"
- 钱 ciN5 "money" -> 钱声 ciN5-siaN1 "cost"
Both 当今 tong1-kim1 and �阵 cit4-cun7 exists in Singapore Hokkien. � cit4 is the conglomeration of �一 ci2-it4