PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry
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Makes perfect sense.Originally posted by blitzonic:Wow, what a hornet's next. My own comments:-
- So Li turned out to be a whistleblower after all, like Dharmendra Yadav said. That explains all the positive feedback at those blog sites. I'd recognized Yadav, from the 2nd link posted yesterday. He's a corporate lawyer for NTUC Income & also writes articles for TODAY, Sintercom & Think Centre. No way he would anyhow hantam bola.
- Disagree with the person who insinuated it's a "small matter." Fact is, a few hundred men already knew about it, since the CO assembled the whole SIG BN for a scolding. (Gossip or not, with Li's familial ties, it would've only been a matter of time for them to find out who the instigator was.) Compounding matters, Li was tactless enough to write to various other SAF commanders, further amplifying the matter but on different food chains. In other words, this wasn't a case of a LCP seeking redress from his Member of Parliament & then the CO ordered a BN parade for a tekan session. Rather, this was a commissioned officer who, righteous or not, pulled off a Chee Soon Juan-style publicity stunt.
- I'm quite surprised Li got away with only a reprimand. Not so much disobeying the General Orders, which is a set of expedient regulations promulgated when needed anyway. Neither do I think he's chargeable for going AWOL (he actually wasn't on duty when there was no DO). Rather, I reckon he should've been put on trial for improper handover of duty -- but even then only cuz he'd already disrupted his NS & hence no way to discipline him internally with extra duties. From what I know of others who ORDed with customary charges hanging over their heads, the punishment for Li would've been a fine (once he reported back).
- I'm more perturbed to learn that the other "supervisory officers" only got similar slaps on their wrists. There were mentions of duty personnel, but doesn't the unit have a duty BOS too, i.e. a senior NCO equivalent assigned for those days? If he/they didn't do his/their jobs, where's the accountability?
Looking at how this and some of the more recent SAF cases have been handled, one would really wonder who's in charge of the system - betting odds most strongly favour Laurel and Hardy, Abbott and Costello and the Three Stooges. -
Manslaughter, a couple of decades plus a fire-and-brimstone sermon from a certain Mr Yong is what you'd get.Originally posted by SpecOps87:If I kill someone or maim someone cuz he was trying to harm someone in public, will i get charged? Or will the mata or CJ say tt because my intention was good...tt's why no charge? -
Hong Kan lor...wat to do? Not sure if u're chinses Ged...but as the chinese saying goes...Tong Ren Bu Tong MingOriginally posted by Gedanken:Manslaughter, a couple of decades plus a fire-and-brimstone sermon from a certain Mr Yong is what you'd get. -
Reuters - 2 hours 7 minutes ago
Singapore army rebukes PM's son for e-mail protest
"There are proper channels within the SAF (Singapore Armed Forces) - SINGAPORE, July 13 - Singapore's military has rebuked the 20-year-old son of Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong for violating its chain of command with an e-mail complaint about a fellow officer, the defence ministry said on Friday.
Li Hongyi, a national serviceman with the rank of second lieutenant, had sent the e-mail to the defence minister and hundreds of military personnel to complain that a colleague had gone absent without leave on two occasions.
Li had also said in the June 28 missive the errant officer's supervisors had failed to act even after he raised the matter.
"Second Lieutenant Li was found to have contravened the General Orders ... by broadcasting his letter of complaint to many other servicemen," the ministry said in a statement.
"There are proper channels within the SAF (Singapore Armed Forces) to address servicemen's grievances or concerns."
Li is the first-born son of the prime minister's second wife, Ho Ching, who heads the state investment firm, Temasek Holdings.
The defence ministry said Li had been formally charged and reprimanded after a summary trial earlier this month.
It added that the errant officer about whom Li had complained would be court martialled for going absent without leave. His two supervising officers had been issued warning letters.
A purported copy of Li's letter was posted online by several blogs, fast emerging as an alternative source of information to the city-state's pro-government press. The text was also circulated by e-mail.
"One thing that cannot be tolerated is a reputation for having bad leaders," Li was quoted as saying.
"While I may only be a second lieutenant, I am a citizen of this country. And as a citizen I have the right to demand high standards from the leaders of the SAF."
The ministry declined comment on the letters' contents.
Some analysts said the government had been wise to act quickly, even though it was probably pressured into releasing information about the incident due to the Internet publicity.
"That the Prime Minister's son was reprimanded shows the integrity of the system," said Lam Peng Er, a senior research fellow at the East Asian Institute. "Nobody is above the law."
Li is set to leave soon for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States to read economics on a government scholarship, local newspapers said. -
Its "manslaughter" meh? doesnt SG law have provisions for "self-defence"? and for this case "defence of a third person"?Originally posted by Gedanken:Manslaughter, a couple of decades plus a fire-and-brimstone sermon from a certain Mr Yong is what you'd get. -
Originally posted by SMRT Buses:
man.... i just love his statement
Reuters - 2 hours 7 minutes ago
[b]Singapore army rebukes PM's son for e-mail protest
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"That the Prime Minister's son was reprimanded shows the integrity of the system," said Lam Peng Er, a senior research fellow at the East Asian Institute. "Nobody is above the law."
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[/b]
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Originally posted by SMRT Buses:
YAY! i know this would make international news!
Reuters - 2 hours 7 minutes ago
[b]Singapore army rebukes PM's son for e-mail protest
"There are proper channels within the SAF (Singapore Armed Forces) - SINGAPORE, July 13 - Singapore's military has rebuked the 20-year-old son of Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong for violating its chain of command with an e-mail complaint about a fellow officer, the defence ministry said on Friday.
Li Hongyi, a national serviceman with the rank of second lieutenant, had sent the e-mail to the defence minister and hundreds of military personnel to complain that a colleague had gone absent without leave on two occasions.
Li had also said in the June 28 missive the errant officer's supervisors had failed to act even after he raised the matter.
"Second Lieutenant Li was found to have contravened the General Orders ... by broadcasting his letter of complaint to many other servicemen," the ministry said in a statement.
"There are proper channels within the SAF (Singapore Armed Forces) to address servicemen's grievances or concerns."
Li is the first-born son of the prime minister's second wife, Ho Ching, who heads the state investment firm, Temasek Holdings.
The defence ministry said Li had been formally charged and reprimanded after a summary trial earlier this month.
It added that the errant officer about whom Li had complained would be court martialled for going absent without leave. His two supervising officers had been issued warning letters.
A purported copy of Li's letter was posted online by several blogs, fast emerging as an alternative source of information to the city-state's pro-government press. The text was also circulated by e-mail.
"One thing that cannot be tolerated is a reputation for having bad leaders," Li was quoted as saying.
"While I may only be a second lieutenant, I am a citizen of this country. And as a citizen I have the right to demand high standards from the leaders of the SAF."
The ministry declined comment on the letters' contents.
Some analysts said the government had been wise to act quickly, even though it was probably pressured into releasing information about the incident due to the Internet publicity.
"That the Prime Minister's son was reprimanded shows the integrity of the system," said Lam Peng Er, a senior research fellow at the East Asian Institute. "Nobody is above the law."
Li is set to leave soon for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States to read economics on a government scholarship, local newspapers said.[/b]
seriously, if anyone of you have the original mail in OA, dun forward it, MSD seems to do something to make it delete itself -
Well, okay. Strictly speaking there's no such thing as manslaughter in the Singapore Penal Code - it's culpable homicide not amounting to murder.Originally posted by Idle_King:Its "manslaughter" meh? doesnt SG law have provisions for "self-defence"? and for this case "defence of a third person"?
Actually, I've just looked into it after making that offhand comment, and it's a bit weird.
Section 299 of the Penal Code (you can find it at http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/) defines culpable homicide as: "Whoever causes death by doing an act with the intention of causing death, or with the intention of causing such bodily injury as is likely to cause death, or with the knowledge that he is likely by such act to cause death, commits the offence of culpable homicide.".
On the other hand, an exception in Section 300 states: "Culpable homicide is not murder if the offender whilst deprived of the power of self-control by grave and sudden provocation, causes the death of the person who gave the provocation, or causes the death of any other person by mistake or accident".
In the first case, you have to intend to cause death or injury leading to death for it to count as culpable homicide. In the second case, if you didn't intend to cause death, it's not murder but it is culpable homicide.
WTF?!
By the looks of it, if someone didn't want to charge you with culpable homicide, they'd look at section 299, but if they wanted to charge you with culpable homicide, they'd look at section 300. Law's a severely f*cked up business.
The self-defence exceptions seem to be covered by:
"Compulsion by threats – If it is done by a person who is compelled to do it by threats, which, at the time of doing it, reasonably cause the apprehension that instant death to that person will otherwise be the consequence. The exception does not apply to murder and offences against the State punishable with death" and;
"Private defence – If it is done in the exercise of the right of private defence".
"Act done without criminal intent to prevent other harm – If, merely by reason of its being done with the knowledge that it is likely to cause harm, it is done without any criminal intention to cause harm, and in good faith for the purpose of preventing or avoiding other harm to person or property".
I don't know how much good these exceptions will do you if you get a bloodthirsty judge who doesn't want to be convinced that they apply. -
he was one of the cadets in the signal sch when i went to brunei with my engrs cadets last year abt this period.. the entire signal cadets was definitely slack. they had a big, big white horse!
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Here is an article taken from PAP website..Personally I think he is doing the right thing if he does it for the right reason.
From: 2LT Li Hongyi, _____ PC, _____
Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 9:36 AM
To: ___ ____ ____, Minister, MHQ; MG ______ ____, CDF, CDF Office; BG -___ ____ ____, COA,
COAOFF; COL _______, CSO, _______; zz All in ____, _________
Cc: zz All in ________, _____; zz ALL IN ____, _____; zz All in _____, _____; zz All in ______, ______
Subject: A complaint about the quality control of SAF officers
Dear Sirs and alI,
I am about to disrupt my national service to pursue further studies, and this will likely be my last email sent out for the next half a decade. Unlike the common "ORD letters" that you read, this letter unfortunately cannot be as cheerful. I am using this last opportunity to issue a letter of complaint against the quality control of officers in the SAF, more specifically against LTA X. During my time as his subordinate, LTA X was AWOL on at least 2 counts, attempted bribery, and lied to his subordinates and his superior officer. The battalion HQ has effectively given no punishment, and has not even made these infractions known to the rest of the battalion.
Let me first give you some background. I am the ____ ____ platoon commander from __________. In order to maintain operational readiness my duties are performed at _____ camp where our ops bus and servers are instead of at stagmont camp where our battalion is. The company is structured like so
OC
|
Centre Head
|
PC
The duties are therefore shared between the PC's, PS', and the Centre Head. LTA X is the centre head of the __________.
LTA X, was originally supposed to be on duty at _____ Camp as the duty commander for the _______ on the 20th and 22nd of April, a Friday and Sunday respectively. I was on duty on the 21st of April that Saturday, to minimize the changing over, I contacted him and asked if he would like to swap duties for the Saturday and Sunday. To this he agreed, and thus he was to be on duty on the 20th and 21st of April.
On the Friday however, LTA X called to inform me that he was busy during the day, and if I could cover for him until the evening. To this I agreed to do so. At about 1600 hours, I received a call from LTA X, informing me that he was on the way and that I could leave first, thought this would result in a time where there would be no duty commander in camp, he informed me that this had already be cleared with our OC. I therefore left camp.
On Sunday the 22nd of April I arrived back in camp to take over duty from LTA X. After he had left camp the men informed me that he had not arrived in camp on Friday at all, and that he only arrived in camp at 1800 hours on Saturday the 21st of April. On Saturday they had tried to contact him to ask his whereabouts, to which he told them that he was in fact in _____ in ______ camp getting some work done. The men contacted their counterparts in ______ camp to verify this, however no one in______ camp had seen LTA X. 1 further confirmed with the ______ duty personnel on Saturday that none of them had seen LTA X, this was also with confirmed with that day's BDO. -
where's part 2?
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dude,he was doing it rite lah... The LTA went off while doing duty leh... Quite serious already... Wait if anything happen the LTA can ta or not
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So, i guess according to the 1st para abv, "Compulsion by threats" would be a proper self-defence exception as, it is applicable to all but murder and offences against the state.... according to section300, "Culpable homicide is not murder if the offender whilst deprived of the power of self-control by grave and sudden provocation, causes the death of the person who gave the provocation, or causes the death of any other person by mistake or accident".Originally posted by Gedanken:"Compulsion by threats – If it is done by a person who is compelled to do it by threats, which, at the time of doing it, reasonably cause the apprehension that instant death to that person will otherwise be the consequence. The exception does not apply to murder and offences against the State punishable with death" and;
"Private defence – If it is done in the exercise of the right of private defence".
so i guess we can get attacked on the street and show "reasonable apprehension" before killing the bugger, and we can get off scot free...
But wadabout defence of others? say some chap gets wacked by a bunch of morons, do we stand idly by instead of throwing them off the poor chap for fear of committing culpable homicide? -
i thk that LTA is quite suay..
as an officer myself, there's alws under table things going around. afterall, officers protect officers, somemore the first offender is a regular.
for this case, that LTA would at most got many many extras for not turning up on duty.. but now, looked who had stirred the thing up and got it into the papers.. its mentioned that he's going to be court marshalled. i thk he will had his service terminated and his ranks gone. -
i hope this incident will make the top managements to really check on their regulars. it is a very badly screw up organization with lots and lots of cover up. i support his action for bypassing the chain of command because complaining doesn't work at all by going through the proper channel. SAF hotline doesn't work at all too. need permission then can call the hotline. wtf is this?Originally posted by alan-:i thk that LTA is quite suay..
as an officer myself, there's alws under table things going around. afterall, officers protect officers, somemore the first offender is a regular.
for this case, that LTA would at most got many many extras for not turning up on duty.. but now, looked who had stirred the thing up and got it into the papers.. its mentioned that he's going to be court marshalled. i thk he will had his service terminated and his ranks gone. -
how to check? this incident will just pass on.. until half decade later when this lta lee comes back to the army and when he climbs up, probably he will clean up the mess..Originally posted by freedom4ever:i hope this incident will make the top managements to really check on their regulars. it is a very badly screw up organization with lots and lots of cover up. i support his action for bypassing the chain of command because complaining doesn't work at all by going through the proper channel. SAF hotline doesn't work at all too. need permission then can call the hotline. wtf is this?
anyway, this reminds me of a unique incident in my unit when a regular spec who ord did the same thing and complaint abt my ex boss who is a major on his last day of svc. he emailed to all engr officers and up to def minister. all they did is to reinvestigate the alleged abuse and that poor spec was sued by my boss in a civil suit.. and of cos, my boss won the case.
why people just dont ord in peace? -
because they care for the country??? SAF got too many fk up regulars liao. sometimes i see liao also tu lan the way those regulars wasting tax payer money. there is nothing we can do so i keep quiet and ord in peace. now that someone actually dare to dig out a dark secret, i'm sure there are a lot of supporter behind him for what he has done.Originally posted by alan-:how to check? this incident will just pass on.. until half decade later when this lta lee comes back to the army and when he climbs up, probably he will clean up the mess..
anyway, this reminds me of a unique incident in my unit when a regular spec who ord did the same thing and complaint abt my ex boss who is a major on his last day of svc. he emailed to all engr officers and up to def minister. all they did is to reinvestigate the alleged abuse and that poor spec was sued by my boss in a civil suit.. and of cos, my boss won the case.
why people just dont ord in peace? -
if there was proper reason to say that a person is incapable and did not discharge his duties correctly.. then i would commend the whistle blower.Originally posted by alan-:how to check? this incident will just pass on.. until half decade later when this lta lee comes back to the army and when he climbs up, probably he will clean up the mess..
anyway, this reminds me of a unique incident in my unit when a regular spec who ord did the same thing and complaint abt my ex boss who is a major on his last day of svc. he emailed to all engr officers and up to def minister. all they did is to reinvestigate the alleged abuse and that poor spec was sued by my boss in a civil suit.. and of cos, my boss won the case.
why people just dont ord in peace?
Too often in the military ( sg or otherwise) where people use their ranks to cover up inappropriate actions... to avoid duty etc
People don't ORD in peace because they still have 10 years of ICT... and if they feel that the SAF as an organisation is so screwed up.. and they will eventually have to return to serve... won't they want to see changes done? Changes to up the level of competancy and efficency of commanders, esp top brass?
And won't you want to make SAF a better place, even if it does not benefit you but it may benefit your children? other generations? -
I am sure the lower ranking NSmen who always kenna tekan by Lt will salute LTA.Originally posted by gaoxingdcf:dude,he was doing it rite lah... The LTA went off while doing duty leh... Quite serious already... Wait if anything happen the LTA can ta or not -
so wat? in e end he still got away wif a verbal warning only... i tink he deserved to b punished more...Originally posted by duotiga83:man.... i just love his statement -
haiz... a wrong vote to such pathetic candidate.
what a shame.
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Now it's on Financial Times as well..
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7b578e20-3160-11dc-891f-0000779fd2ac.html
Singapore PMÂ’s son reprimanded over e-mail
By John Burton in Singapore
Published: July 13 2007 18:02 | Last updated: July 13 2007 18:02
A son of SingaporeÂ’s prime minister has been reprimanded for e-mailing a complaint about a fellow army officer to the country's defence minister and hundreds of other military personnel. The case involving Li Hongyi has served as a lightning rod for criticism on the internet of his familyÂ’s political power.
The defence ministry said on Friday it had issued the reprimand against Mr Li, 20, after his 2,000-word letter of complaint was posted on the internet and drew widespread attention.
Mr Li, a 2nd lieutenant, is the first-born son of Lee Hsien Loong, the prime minister, and Ho Ching, head of Temasek Holdings, the state investment company, and grandson of Lee Kuan Yew, independent Singapore's first leader.
The letter provoked complaints on the internet about the Lee family's political dominance in Singapore.
“No ordinary OCT [officer cadet trainee] would dare to write such a letter addressed to all the big guns in the [defence] ministry,” read one posting on an internet political chatroom.
The internet has emerged as a forum for political criticism of the government in a country where the media is guided by the state.
Mr Li, who is doing his compulsory military service, sent the e-mail last month to Teo Chee Hean, the defence minister, senior military leaders and other army personnel complaining that a colleague had gone absent without leave on two occasions but that no action had been taken by his superiors.
The defence ministry said that Mr Li had gone outside the chain of command “by broadcasting his letter of complaint to many other servicemen – almost all of whom were neither directly under his command, nor in an official capacity where they could deal with the matters contained in his letter of complaint”.
Much of the internet criticism commented on suggestions that Mr Li was apparently being groomed for a future leadership role after being awarded a government scholarship to study economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
The Singapore military has served as a training ground for political leaders and executives in state companies. Mr LiÂ’s father was a brigadier general before entering politics. Temasek announced last week that a former head of the Singapore armed forces had been appointed to the newly created post of portfolio management managing director.
In his complaint letter, Mr Li said his colleague’s continued service in the military was an “embarrassment” and that the armed forces was “not a charity organisation and does not owe anyone a career”.
The defence ministry said that the officer accused by Mr Li had since been court martialled. -
freaking ironic la. at first thought he stood up for what was right was good la. he spoke up for the light punishment of the LTA, then his own punishment for breaking the rules also so light. isn't he having the exact replica of what he complained about. honestly crap la. maybe he should just ask for more punishment to align his email of complaint with justice to his own punishment lo. anyway, PM son so what?Originally posted by life2121:so wat? in e end he still got away wif a verbal warning only... i tink he deserved to b punished more... -
The way this person writes the news is very biased. It makes the PM's son out to be the bad guy. i.e as if everyone accused by Mr Li gets the short end of the stick regardless of right or wrong.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Now it's on Financial Times as well..
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7b578e20-3160-11dc-891f-0000779fd2ac.html
Singapore PMÂ’s son reprimanded over e-mail
By John Burton in Singapore
Published: July 13 2007 18:02 | Last updated: July 13 2007 18:02
A son of SingaporeÂ’s prime minister has been reprimanded for e-mailing a complaint about a fellow army officer to the country's defence minister and hundreds of other military personnel. The case involving Li Hongyi has served as a lightning rod for criticism on the internet of his familyÂ’s political power.
The defence ministry said on Friday it had issued the reprimand against Mr Li, 20, after his 2,000-word letter of complaint was posted on the internet and drew widespread attention.
Mr Li, a 2nd lieutenant, is the first-born son of Lee Hsien Loong, the prime minister, and Ho Ching, head of Temasek Holdings, the state investment company, and grandson of Lee Kuan Yew, independent Singapore's first leader.
The letter provoked complaints on the internet about the Lee family's political dominance in Singapore.
“No ordinary OCT [officer cadet trainee] would dare to write such a letter addressed to all the big guns in the [defence] ministry,” read one posting on an internet political chatroom.
The internet has emerged as a forum for political criticism of the government in a country where the media is guided by the state.
Mr Li, who is doing his compulsory military service, sent the e-mail last month to Teo Chee Hean, the defence minister, senior military leaders and other army personnel complaining that a colleague had gone absent without leave on two occasions but that no action had been taken by his superiors.
The defence ministry said that Mr Li had gone outside the chain of command “by broadcasting his letter of complaint to many other servicemen – almost all of whom were neither directly under his command, nor in an official capacity where they could deal with the matters contained in his letter of complaint”.
Much of the internet criticism commented on suggestions that Mr Li was apparently being groomed for a future leadership role after being awarded a government scholarship to study economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
The Singapore military has served as a training ground for political leaders and executives in state companies. Mr LiÂ’s father was a brigadier general before entering politics. Temasek announced last week that a former head of the Singapore armed forces had been appointed to the newly created post of portfolio management managing director.
In his complaint letter, Mr Li said his colleague’s continued service in the military was an “embarrassment” and that the armed forces was “not a charity organisation and does not owe anyone a career”.
The defence ministry said that the officer accused by Mr Li had since been court martialled.
The writer seems to have intentionally left out the most important part.And in this incident, 2LT Li is said to have written a complaint against another officer whom he alleged had been absent without leave on two occasions.
According to a statement by MINDEF, 2LT Li had also said in his letter that he had reported the matter to the officer's supervisors but disciplinary action had not been carried out.
MINDEF adds that arising from 2LT Li's complaint, an investigation was conducted and appropriate disciplinary action has been meted out to the officers concerned.
The officer who was found to have been absent without leave will be court-martialled.
Two supervising officers have been issued warning letters for poor judgement in administering inappropriate disciplinary action.
MINDEF says to maintain organisational discipline, all SAF servicemen with complaints or grievances should take them up through proper channels for redress. -
oh! so true!Originally posted by ghast.:freaking ironic la. at first thought he stood up for what was right was good la. he spoke up for the light punishment of the LTA, then his own punishment for breaking the rules also so light. isn't he having the exact replica of what he complained about. honestly crap la. maybe he should just ask for more punishment to align his email of complaint with justice to his own punishment lo. anyway, PM son so what?