PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry
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Notwithstanding the lower likelihood of recrimination, I don't think the white horse status has much to do with this matter. The LTA has screwed up royally and if the regulations and operations of the army functioned as they were supposed to, this guy would be in DB by now. Li does have a point that the screw-ups and cover-ups in this matter need to be addressed.
However, if the regulations and operations of the army function as they are supposed to, Li also needs to be punished for abandoning his post. -
Seriously,Originally posted by Gedanken:I mean, look at this: "Well of course I left - he told me it was OK to go". WTF?! He doesn't even show any recognition of his own screw-up.
In wartime, is he going to move his platoon off when the enemy tells him over the signal set, "Hey, we're on the way to relieve you - you can go now".
If the LTA deserves to be punished for going AWOL, Li should too because between the time he left and the time the LTA arrived, he was just as AWOL.
2LT Lee is still young, kind and righteous. However,
He needs to know that fact when people is lying to him and when people are telling the truth.
I think he is being young and tend to believe everything he hears in NS.
Kind is a good thing. You also need to know there are unkind people too.
Not everyone can be like the Kind 2LT Lee.
The fact that he believe every thing that was told to him must be learnt through life lessons like this one.
Once again, My officers would say I am stupid if I am being made a fool.
My officers would not care who is right or wrong, they will say you are stupid for being a fool. Thus they would give a fool punishment.(Fool refering to me) -
he offered that so the 2LT will not report to their OC.Originally posted by John Wong:Acherlly its not really 'bribe' right.. its like offer to do some duty for him or something...
therefore, it is bribery. its not always about money. -
The irony being that it's not at all common, of course.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Not hard, just use some common sense aye?
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i find myself agreeing to this post.Originally posted by Gedanken:Notwithstanding the lower likelihood of recrimination, I don't think the white horse status has much to do with this matter. The LTA has screwed up royally and if the regulations and operations of the army functioned as they were supposed to, this guy would be in DB by now. Li does have a point that the screw-ups and cover-ups in this matter need to be addressed.
However, if the regulations and operations of the army function as they are supposed to, Li also needs to be punished for abandoning his post. -
Originally posted by Ionlytalknoaction:
That's not really relevant. What he needs to know is when he should stay and when he should leave.
He needs to know that fact when people is lying to him and when people are telling the truth. -
Why is it not relevant??Originally posted by Gedanken:That's not really relevant. What he needs to know is when he should stay and when he should leave.
He left on the assumption that someone told him it was OK to leave.
He made his decision to leave based on someone's false assumptions.
How can this not be relevant??? -
True, but the scale of the errs committed by LTAX and 2LTA Li are on a totally different scale.Originally posted by Gedanken:Notwithstanding the lower likelihood of recrimination, I don't think the white horse status has much to do with this matter. The LTA has screwed up royally and if the regulations and operations of the army functioned as they were supposed to, this guy would be in DB by now. Li does have a point that the screw-ups and cover-ups in this matter need to be addressed.
However, if the regulations and operations of the army function as they are supposed to, Li also needs to be punished for abandoning his post. -
As my BMT PS would say.... 'I thought, you think, who confirm?!?! Carry on 20....'Originally posted by Ionlytalknoaction:Why is it not relevant??
He left on the assumption that someone told him it was OK to leave.
He made his decision to leave based on someone's false assumptions.
How can this not be relevant???
You do not abandon your post until you are relieved. That is the bottom line. -
Can't argue with Gendaken lar...he is always right in his head.Originally posted by Ionlytalknoaction:Why is it not relevant??
He left on the assumption that someone told him it was OK to leave.
He made his decision to leave based on someone's false assumptions.
How can this not be relevant???
Its not just someone that tell him to leave...its his superior officer, and quote from a higher superior somemore. If Lee didn't leave then he's guilty for disobeying orders?
Bias and prejudiced people will always find fault with little issues while ignoring the much much larger wrongs.
Chain of command:
OC
LTA X 2Lt Lee -
Certainly the scales are different, and I would expect that the size of the books to be thrown at the two officers would also be different. However, my bottom line is that both, not just one, should have the book throun at them.Originally posted by wisefool83:True, but the scale of the errs committed by LTAX and 2LTA Li are on a totally different scale. -
He was told by his superior officer to leave tho...
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So you're actually saying that Li was right to leave the post unattended?Originally posted by Stoat:Can't argue with Gendaken lar...he is always right in his head.
Its not just someone that tell him to leave...its his superior officer, and quote from a higher superior somemore. If Lee didn't leave then he's guilty for disobeying orders?
Bias and prejudiced people will always find fault with little issues while ignoring the much much larger wrongs.
Chain of command:
OC LTA X 2Lt Lee
What does rank have to do with violating SOP? If the CDF tries to get on an assault boat without wearing a life jacket, the corporal in charge of the boat has the right to refuse boarding to the CDF according to the TSR. If the CDF pulls rank and forces the boatman to get the boat going, the boatman is liable for punishment for violating TSR.
Bottom line, your "superior officer" argument is absolute rubbish.
Where am I ignoring larger wrongs? I've already said that the LTA needs to have the book thrown at him.
You, dear boy, are the one stuck in your own head. -
That does not supercede the SOP of not leaving the post unattended.Originally posted by John Wong:He was told by his superior officer to leave tho... -
he is young loh, everyone was young once and do funny things mah
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but the guy said cleared wid OC oredi marOriginally posted by Gedanken:That does not supercede the SOP of not leaving the post unattended. -
any summary?
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x2. Yep, personally been in that situation also. Weekend COS, the incoming f**ker call at 8 said he coming soon and told me I can leave liao and heng I did not. The f**ker came at 11, F**K UP sia, 3hrs is "soon".Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, I read it all right. Despite the fact that you've quoted the right part of the email, I'd have to question whether you have.
When did the SAF start telling its men that it's all right to leave your post as long as someone tells you he's coming to relieve you? It's your responsibility to maintain station until the other guy is physically there. Have you not spent time in uniform, or did this fundamental operating principle simply escape you?
Lucky I did not leave, an Encik from HQ came to my office to look for my DO. I cannot image what would happen if he enter the ops room to find no one is there. -
Where's the proof? Did the OC call Li and corroborate? All Li acted upon was the claim of one person - that's plain stupid.Originally posted by John Wong:but the guy said cleared wid OC oredi mar
In any case, as I said before, if anything was to happen after Li left and before the LTA arrived, who's there to take charge of things? There must always be someone on station at any given time. -
Cleared with OC does not remove you of your responsibility should your replacement fail to turn up.Originally posted by John Wong:but the guy said cleared wid OC oredi mar
I had tons of such problems when I was Guard Comd, those guards on duty would always play hide-and-seek with me.
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but... its not say his friend or his subordinate or whatever tell him wad... its his superior officerOriginally posted by Gedanken:Where's the proof? Did the OC call Li and corroborate? All Li acted upon was the claim of one person - that's plain stupid.
In any case, as I said before, if anything was to happen after Li left and before the LTA arrived, who's there to take charge of things? There must always be someone on station at any given time.
dun tell me if u are a recruit and sergeant say can book out you call PC check if really can or not meh -
Don't tell me if you are on guard duty until 0800 and your sargeant tells you that you can leave at 0500 with nobody to relieve you that you will just go.Originally posted by John Wong:dun tell me if u are a recruit and sergeant say can book out you call PC check if really can or not meh
EDIT: Having read what Lordz has just posted, maybe you will tell me exactly that. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:Don't tell me if you are on guard duty until 0800 and your sargeant tells you that you can leave at 0500 with nobody to relieve you that you will just go.
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Cannot, if u are on duty. Duty is different ball game because u are responsible until the next person take over. During cross over period and no one is there both ppl are f**ked.Originally posted by John Wong:but... its not say his friend or his subordinate or whatever tell him wad... its his superior officer
dun tell me if u are a recruit and sergeant say can book out you call PC check if really can or not meh
Just think of the guard hse, there cannot be no one in the guard hse one, even the other f**ker is late, u lan lan suck thumb until he comes. -
You know what's the sheer funny thing here? It's that a simple thing like being unable to carry out your damned regimental duties can end up being such a sensational headline in the national blogosphere.