PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry
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IMHO, the actions of 2LT Li speaks alot. the lack of discipline to take the appropriate actions through the chain of command reflects on him.
i shudder to tink that he might be a future leader of the country. (i'm giving everyone the benefit of doubt here) -
His letter reeks of exasperation; PM's son or not, military law or not, he is a human being, and he must have done it in a moment of hot-headedness. He is still young, and I think we should be less harsh on him.
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Gedanken have you even read the email? Lee's fellow officer lied to him that the OC had given permission for him to leave. Btw it was not even Lee's duty in the first place... he was just covering for someone else.Originally posted by Gedanken:Well, looks like he's fit to follow in Daddy's political footsteps. He made scant mention of that fact in that overwrought tirade of his.
The fact is that every man in the SAF, right down to your average recruit, has it drummed into him that he is not to leave his post until relieved. He goes swanning out of camp on the word of another guy, and he wants to crap on about poor soldiering? He can pull the other leg - bloomin' hypocrite.
If you want to shoot someone at least have the guts to shoot the right person. The one who lied, awol, and tried to bribe lee to keep quiet...
On the Friday however, LTA X called to inform me that he was busy during the day, and if I could cover for him until the evening. To this I agreed to do so. At about 1600 hours, I received a call from LTA X, informing me that he was on the way and that I could leave first, thought this would result in a time where there would be no duty commander in camp, he informed me that this had already be cleared with our OC. I therefore left camp.
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Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Hmmm
[b]
It was rhetorical.
I know some people would have done the same thing.
[b]
Only those who have strong backgrounds like coming from PM Lee's family would do such thing.
Majorities are common people who just kept silence or accept punishments.
Common people cannot retaliate the System unless they have strong backings like a Prime minister's family.
If punishment had not made 2LT Lee Hong Yi angry in the first place,
he would not have fight the chain of command. (maybe wrongly phrased, Correct me if I am wrong)
In this case, I would say if he did win, it's only because of PM LEE's influence.
Maybe this might not be a bad thing at all if he can change the way the army treats their soldiers.
I would say it's definitely for his own cause.
The fact that he is a PM's son give him more confidence boost in who he wishes to attack. That is why he may not lose if he were to fight the chain of command.
It's like a 1 sided legal system that was repeated over and over again. No matter who u suit in the court, You can never lose.(an example only). -
Well, it should be that way, shouldn't it?Originally posted by Master -_-:that is nothing... i got a copy of a reply to him from one Bn CO who CCed to my friend who is an OC at that Bn...I think you read that reply email, ur balls shaking.. he dun care who he is sia..he really let it all off..risking promotion..
But I too would tend to agree with Missqi, the chap is young when it comes to the ways of the world. -
It's not always about who your family is.Originally posted by Ionlytalknoaction:Hmmm
Only those who have strong backgrounds like coming from PM Lee's family would do such thing.
Majorities are common people who just kept silence or accept punishments.
Common people cannot retaliate the System unless they have strong backings like a Prime minister's family.
If punishment had not made 2LT Lee Hong Yi angry in the first place,
he would not have fight the chain of command. (maybe wrongly phrased, Correct me if I am wrong)
In this case, I would say if he did win, it's only because of PM LEE's influence.
Maybe this might not be a bad thing at all if he can change the way the army treats their soldiers.
I would say it's definitely for his own cause.
The fact that he is a PM's son give him more confidence boost in who he wishes to attack. That is why he may not lose if he were to fight the chain of command.
It's like a 1 sided legal system that was repeated over and over again. No matter who u suit in the court, You can never lose.(an example only).
Anyway, let's see if there is a positive outcome to this brouhaha. -
OMG MY CAMP LOL!!
yeah co did give us a talk, but he did not reveal the name(s) of the persons involved.
heard some rumour that its the lee dude though, turns out to be true
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Oh, I read it all right. Despite the fact that you've quoted the right part of the email, I'd have to question whether you have.Originally posted by Stoat:Gedanken have you even read the email? Lee's fellow officer lied to him that the OC had given permission for him to leave. Btw it was not even Lee's duty in the first place... he was just covering for someone else.
If you want to shoot someone at least have the guts to shoot the right person.
When did the SAF start telling its men that it's all right to leave your post as long as someone tells you he's coming to relieve you? It's your responsibility to maintain station until the other guy is physically there. Have you not spent time in uniform, or did this fundamental operating principle simply escape you?
This rule is put in place for a very simple reason. With everything you do as a soldier, it's your job to make sure it gets taken care of. If anything happens in the period where one man has left and the next has not yet arrived, who's there to deal with it? It's simply professional behaviour for anyone who cares about what proper soldiering is about.
Li is either thick as a brick for not understanding that, or he's just plain sloppy.
Just to clarify, note that at no point have I said that the LTA had done nothing wrong. What I am saying is that it's pretty mealy-mouthed of Li to go on his little tantrum while he has f*cked up himself. -
HmmmOriginally posted by Stoat:Gedanken have you even read the email? Lee's fellow officer lied to him that the OC had given permission for him to leave. Btw it was not even Lee's duty in the first place... he was just covering for someone else.
If you want to shoot someone at least have the guts to shoot the right person. The one who lied, awol, and tried to bribe lee to keep quiet...
My officer would say I was stupid if I am being made a fool like that.
Nobody cares who is right or wrong in army.
Is this the first time 2LT Lee was being lied by another person in army?
I would say welcome to the reality of the world, Mr Lee.(in a polite manner) -
This is the most elementary of all the rules of soldiering.Originally posted by Gedanken:When did the SAF start telling its men that it's all right to leave your post as long as someone tells you he's coming to relieve you? It's your responsibility to maintain station until the other guy is physically there. Have you not spent time in uniform, or did this fundamental operating principle simply escape you?
This rule is put in place for a very simple reason. With everything you do as a soldier, it's your job to make sure it gets taken care of. If anything happens in the period where one man has left and the next has not yet arrived, who's there to deal with it? It's simply professional behaviour for anyone who cares about what proper soldiering is about. -
ai yo.. anyone can summarised in 10 words?
anyway.. forget it lah.. we also everytime complain to our uncles and relatives and dad's best frens about our fcuk up army life right? why he cannot??
opps.... but... just happened that his uncles and relatives and dad's best fren are............... -
I've just finished reading the mails and based solely on this mail, I must say that I agree with 2LTA Li's action.
The choice to not to go up the chain of command in this particular case was understandable. 2LTA Li had indeed reported the matter to his OC in accordance to the chain of command when the issue was still a bud. Yet things proved that the chain of command in this case was not working well and at the time of the penning of the letter, the issue was no longer concerning just an AWOL LTA and an entire military culture of leniency towards regular officers. It is a serious breach of the COC if you wrote to Minister of Defence and CDF if you were complaining against a LTA, but the breach would not be such a serious one if one is to consider that it's an entire culture that was being addressed upon.
What 2LTA Li did was gutsy, his blood relationship to the PM nevertheless reduces greatly the risk of ill-consequence of such "gutsy" actions, but he could have simply kept quiet like many. There are some posts earlier in this thread that suggests that he was the "bad person" in this whole episode, perhaps the very same people who spoke ill of this "white horse" were bias, perhaps they would have spoke differently if the positions of LTAX and 2LTA Li were exchange. -
Exactly Lordz, and young Mr Li has screwed up royally for ignoring it. Yes, the LTA does need to spend a week hauling bricks for going AWOL, and given his behaviour, a dishonourable discharge would not be out of place. That said, Li really needs to check the composition of his real estate before throwing stones.Originally posted by LazerLordz:This is the most elementary of all the rules of soldiering. -
Oh yeah for benefit of those who dunno where to find it, the original mail taken from comments on
http://tomorrow.sg/archives/2007/07/11/pms_sons_army_gaffe_and_why_we_h.html
It's too long so its in the next post after this: -
From: 2LT Li Hongyi, _____ PC, _____
Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 9:36 AM
To: ___ ____ ____, Minister, MHQ; MG ______ ____, CDF, CDF Office; BG -___ ____ ____, COA,
COAOFF; COL _______, CSO, _______; zz All in ____, _________
Cc: zz All in ________, _____; zz ALL IN ____, _____; zz All in _____, _____; zz All in ______, ______
Subject: A complaint about the quality control of SAF officers
Dear Sirs and alI,
I am about to disrupt my national service to pursue further studies, and this will likely be my last email sent out for the next half a decade. Unlike the common "ORD letters" that you read, this letter unfortunately cannot be as cheerful. I am using this last opportunity to issue a letter of complaint against the quality control of officers in the SAF, more specifically against LTA X. During my time as his subordinate, LTA X was AWOL on at least 2 counts, attempted bribery, and lied to his subordinates and his superior officer. The battalion HQ has effectively given no punishment, and has not even made these infractions known to the rest of the battalion.
Let me first give you some background. I am the ____ ____ platoon commander from __________. In order to maintain operational readiness my duties are performed at _____ camp where our ops bus and servers are instead of at stagmont camp where our battalion is. The company is structured like so
OC
|
Centre Head
|
PC
The duties are therefore shared between the PC's, PS', and the Centre Head. LTA X is the centre head of the __________.
LTA X, was originally supposed to be on duty at _____ Camp as the duty commander for the _______ on the 20th and 22nd of April, a Friday and Sunday respectively. I was on duty on the 21st of April that Saturday, to minimize the changing over, I contacted him and asked if he would like to swap duties for the Saturday and Sunday. To this he agreed, and thus he was to be on duty on the 20th and 21st of April.
On the Friday however, LTA X called to inform me that he was busy during the day, and if I could cover for him until the evening. To this I agreed to do so. At about 1600 hours, I received a call from LTA X, informing me that he was on the way and that I could leave first, thought this would result in a time where there would be no duty commander in camp, he informed me that this had already be cleared with our OC. I therefore left camp.
On Sunday the 22nd of April I arrived back in camp to take over duty from LTA X. After he had left camp the men informed me that he had not arrived in camp on Friday at all, and that he only arrived in camp at 1800 hours on Saturday the 21st of April. On Saturday they had tried to contact him to ask his whereabouts, to which he told them that he was in fact in _____ in ______ camp getting some work done. The men contacted their counterparts in ______ camp to verify this, however no one in______ camp had seen LTA X. 1 further confirmed with the ______ duty personnel on Saturday that none of them had seen LTA X, this was also with confirmed with that day's BDO.
This news obviously was very distressing, I confronted LTA X regarding this information to which he confirmed that he only arrived in camp on Saturday at 1800 hours, but that he was at _____ for a while then left later to run some errands. Upon learning that I was to bring this information to our OC, LTA X then made an offer to do some of my duties for me to which I declined, his words were "You know if you need me to help you do some of your duties.."
On Wednesday after I had completed my personal investigation and confirmed that these events had indeed transpired, I informed our OC of these offences. Our OC spoke to LTA X regarding these issues, and let him off with a warning.
I would like the story to end here, however LTA RX was again on duty at ____ Camp for _________ on the following Saturday the 28th of April. At 0030 hours on Sunday the 29th of April I received a message from the duty personnel. The duty personnel of the platoon had just spotted LTA X's car, a white Mitsubishi lancer driving out of camp. I responded by telling them to check all the car parks and look for LTA X in camp. I received a call at about 0115 hours, the duty personnel informed me that they had checked the whole camp, and that LTA X's car was no where to be found. They also informed me that LTA X was no where to be found, not in any of the bunks nor any of the offices.
On Monday the 20th of April when I arrived back in ______ Camp for work, I confirmed with both the guard commander and the duty officer for Saturday the 28th of April, that at white Mitsubishi lancer had indeed driven out of camp at about 0030 hours on the 29th of April. This latest information was told to our OC.
When confronted by our OC, LTA X told him that indeed it was his car driving out of camp, he claimed however, that it was not him driving the car but that he had lent it to friend to drive out of camp. After checking with the person in question this was established to be untrue. Finally, LTA X admitted that he had lied, and that is was he who had left camp.
I have been informed that LTA X was to be given 10 extra duties, though this may be considered an extremely light punishment there is a further problem. To date, which is to say, 2 months from the incidents, none of the duties have been published in the battalion RO, in addition, LTA X has not served any of the extra duties he was supposedly awarded. In addition, this system of leniency is not consistent throughout the battalion, or even the company. The following was published in the RO on 1 1th of June 2007:
SXXXXXXXX CPL _____ ________ Non-compliance with a lawful duty or order. stoppage of Leave for 7 days
This was the punishment for CPL ______ for leaving camp an hour before he was supposed to. This was published less than a week after his infringement. If you were to calculate the time AWOL alone, LTA X was missing for a minimum of over 20 hours. This does not take into the account the fact that he repeated the crime less than a week after being reprimanded the first time. This does not take into account the lying to his superior officer. This does not take into account the fact that he is an officer, and thus should be even more liable than corporal.
Absence without leave
22. -(1) Every person subject to military law who is absent without leave from service in the Singapore Armed Forces or from the place where he is lawfully required for the time being to be shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction by a subordinate military court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or any less punishment authorised by this Act.
(2) It shall be a defence for any person charged under this section to prove that his absence was a result of circumstances over which he had no control.
this is where the report ends and the editorial begins. LTA X's continued service in the SAF is an embarrassment the entire officer corps. In the SAF we are constantly being told that we have very high standards expected from our officers. As an officer cadet any one of these actions would have you put immediately out of course. Here you have a person who lied to his subordinates, went AWOL, attempted to bribe a civil servant, went AWOL again not even a week after being reprimanded, then lied to cover himself, and tried to implicate another person in these lies. He discarded his second chance just days after being given it because he thought he could get away with it. I how ask you what exactly are these high standard that we speak of? I am realistically asking you how much worse than this can an officer really go? Does a person have to commit armed robbery or murder before he fails these supposedly "high" standards of officers in the SAF? I simply fail to understand how someone who would undeniably fail the standards expected of a cadet or even a private can continue to be an officer.
The decisions of the battalion HQ are equally saddening. How can a lower standard of discipline be expected of officers than of men? In the our society, when a police officer commits a crime he is held to an even higher standard, and given even greater punishment than a normal citizen, this is because he has betrayed the very values it is his duty to uphold.
I was told that one of the reasons this was so was that they did not wish to ruin his career with a summary trial. However the SAF is not a charity organisation and does not owe anyone a career. I feel that as a regular his status as an officer and his career should be under even closer scrutiny than that of an NSF, to intentionally withhold such information is effectively tricking the SAF into continuing to pay someone whom if all is known, has no place in the organisation.
Another reason told to me for LTA X's lighter punishment was that it is in light of the work he has done for the battalion, I feel this is unacceptable for several reasons. Firstly in our country we do not mitigate punishments based on past achievements, Durai was not excused despite the amount of money he helped NKF raise, and a doctor would not be excused from molestation no matter how many lives he has helped save. Secondly such mitigation is nothing more than justified corruption and no different from a criminal paying off the police to escape arrest, the very thing we fight so hard to keep out of our society, Finally even if the previous two points are conceded, what LTA X did was not a mistake, mistakes are done by accident. What he has demonstrated is a systematic failure of character and unacceptable as an officer.
Even if you attribute the lack of punishment to extreme leniency, the decision to not inform the battalion is even more suspicious. Especially in a _____ unit such as _________ where the importance of being on duty cannot be over emphasized, to not even inform the battalion of the occurrence is to send a signal that there is nothing wrong with his actions. If it was unintentional it shows gross negligence for something which is clearly an important matter, and if intentional shows a level of corruption that I need not elaborate on.
While some might say this is just a small matter, a story of a single bad officer, the fact that it was not dealt with more severely is indicative of a bigger problem. It shows the lack of quality control being practiced for the leaders of the SAF. The following quote was taken from the army's own intranet homepage:
"In the 3rd Generation SAF, the quality and commitment of our people will continue to be the most important determinant for advancement" - Member of Parliament Ms Indranee Rajah
We can take criticism about having second hand equipment, outdated training methods, and even questionable relevance to modern day operations. But one thing that cannot be tolerated is a reputation for having bad leaders. Such a reputation would compromise Singapore's defence credibility far more than using refurbished tanks or old training manuals.
While I may only be a 2nd lieutenant, I am a citizen of this country. And as a citizen I have the right to demand high standards from the leaders of the SAF While it is true that high standards are hard to come by and even harder to enforce, for such events to come to light and yet nothing be done about it is to say the very least, unacceptable and disappointing.
Yours Sincerely,
2LT Li Hongyi -
___________ Commander -
At about 1600 hours, I received a call from LTA X, informing me that he was on the way and that I could leave first, thought this would result in a time where there would be no duty commander in camp, he informed me that this had already be cleared with our OC. I therefore left camp.
I mean, look at this: "Well of course I left - he told me it was OK to go". WTF?! He doesn't even show any recognition of his own screw-up.
In wartime, is he going to move his platoon off when the enemy tells him over the signal set, "Hey, we're on the way to relieve you - you can go now".
If the LTA deserves to be punished for going AWOL, Li should too because between the time he left and the time the LTA arrived, he was just as AWOL. -
Okay i surmarise for ppl...
1. Lee was kind-hearted and help his friend by covering his duty.
2. His friend tell lies and backstab him.
3. His friend AWOL after tricking Lee to leave his post.
4. When Lee threaten to report, his friend try to bribe Lee.
5. After Lee reported to CO, CO didn't punish Lee's friend.
6. Lee angry and keep close watch on his friend.
7. Soon Lee's friend AWOL again.
8. CO wayang say punish lor 10 extra duty for AWOL but never punish the friend.
9. Lee even more angry liao...hehe...shoot letter.
10. Now everyone scold Lee say he wrong, but never scold Lee's friend.
11. Lee feel very sad. -
Wrong - 2LT Li was stupid and irresponsible enough to leave his post unattended, which even Private Lim Ah Kow knows not to do.Originally posted by Stoat:3. His friend AWOL after tricking Lee to leave his post. -
w/e...you are always right.Originally posted by Gedanken:Wrong - 2LT Li was stupid enough to leave his post unattended, which even Private Lim Ah Kow knows not to do. -
the Law is the Law.
no one is above it, and everyone should be equal before the eyes of the Law.
therefore, this LTA, 2LT should receive their proper punishment(s).
but the SAF is a very dark place, just like Singapore. -
the Law is the Law.
no one is above it, and everyone should be equal before the eyes of the Law.
therefore, this LTA, and 2LT should receive their proper punishment(s).
but the SAF is a very dark place, just like Singapore.
elite, rank, big car, big money wins. all the time. -
Better get used to it.Originally posted by Stoat:w/e...you are always right. -
hahahaha yeah sound like little kid getting upset LOL and that kid did not realise something,this is very common in the SAF,he get to complain because he is riding a white horse,if he do not ride a white horse,nobody will bother him and he may even kena from his COOriginally posted by Stoat:Okay i surmarise for ppl...
1. Lee was kind-hearted and help his friend by covering his duty.
2. His friend tell lies and backstab him.
3. His friend AWOL after tricking Lee to leave his post.
4. When Lee threaten to report, his friend try to bribe Lee.
5. After Lee reported to CO, CO didn't punish Lee's friend.
6. Lee angry and keep close watch on his friend.
7. Soon Lee's friend AWOL again.
8. CO wayang say punish lor 10 extra duty for AWOL but never punish the friend.
9. Lee even more angry liao...hehe...shoot letter.
10. Now everyone scold Lee say he wrong, but never scold Lee's friend.
11. Lee feel very sad.
This is the real world this is saf LOL -
Acherlly its not really 'bribe' right.. its like offer to do some duty for him or something...
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Not hard, just use some common sense aye?Originally posted by Gedanken:Better get used to it.