PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry
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Please don't forget that he broke Military Law and that makes him a criminal in the eyes of the Military. Of course you might argue that it was a minor violation or argue that General Standing Orders is not Military Law and would not make him criminal under Military Law... still the topic title is correct to say: "PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry"
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well, when ur daddy and ah gong own the country, it is just a scolding.Originally posted by wisefool83:I think need to clarify something here, his punishment was "reprimand". This is different from the scolding that it normally means. A reprimand in military law terms is a defined punishment more serious than your normal extras. It is recorded and will affect military careers.
If you look up for SAF ACT s118 (1)(a)-(l) in the internet, the punishments are in a hierarchy. The extra duties that we normally get is under (l) while reprimand is in (k) which is a step more serious then (l).
I dun believe he won't continue to sail smoothly through the golden career path that has long been planned for him -
i would perhaps want to contribute something from a different and broader perspective..
Something called the thinking soldier.. in the case presented.. you definitely have got one thinking soldier in the form of 2Lt Li who does think about broader consequences of certain practices or malpractices in the SAF. He is just one out of many.
All this talk about 3G.. it all boils down to something.. soldiers are thinking.. we have on our hands 2 commanders LTA X and the OC who are definitely not thinking harder/ better than they should be when they are confronted by the situation. If they are confronted by a real scenario in battle, they set out certain orders.. and someone comes up with an obviously better solution, i think the chain of command is definitely screwed. In so far as military decisions are being made, i think there should not be a doubt that there should not be room for questions. .people really just obey and so the whole war machine can be effective.. if you have one loose gear who decides to go turn another direction.. engine stall and the whole machine just stops in the midst of war..
I think there is a real cause for worry as to what kind of commanders we really have/ want to have and how they can really lead those who can think better than them.
Do we now still want to just go for the single direction where commanders just command, and people like your average soldier just go by orders and do what they are told to do? Or is there room for collective decision making to tap on the better brains that we have?
I see that more or less, SAF is driving or has been taking the direction where the top brass are filled with thinking people.. i.e. those who are the smart smart scholar types. when it comes to the crunch, i think they can make better decisions and weigh the consequences better. so they got the brains and rank to push things through.. yes admittedly they have no real battle experience.. but what to do? do we really want a war to test them?
the difficult part at hand now is to have the middle and low management filled with people with the same thinking calibre..
another part of this whole case is that 2Lt Li has already seized the "moral high ground". Its not right for him to complain to so many, but it pales in comparison with the wrong that he is complaining about and by cc-ing more people, i think he is also saying that all the other regulars who are doing the same things better wake up also. If SAF mete out punishment that is too harsh to the whistle-blower.. what message is SAF trying to send?
My brother who was a regular specialist, was so full of praise for 2Lt Li's action.. saying that it is really like that, regular regular cover backside.. and even more so if officers.. i hope the top brass really do take a look at the whole situation before this starts to jeopardize national security. -
Correct me if i'm wrong...but the COC is present for a reason. It is to ensure that everything stays inline and incheck and you do not bog the big guy with unnecessary issues. The way I see it, he should have gone to OC->CO-> and the MP's CID unit.
Also, SOPs exist for a reason, when you're instructed to stand post, you stand post until relieved. Simple as that, no arguments.When people get selfish, skip the chain of command and take matters into their own hands, what does this show? You have clearly no respect of the system in place right? No matter how righteous and good the intention is, things have to go step by step. You jolly well follow the COC. I mean even if in the heat of battle, you see an opportunity that your commanders don't you don't simply tell your platoon to charge like a bunch of Rambos...you won't end up with the heroic congratulations like in Hollywood movies, but will most probably get shot for disobeying orders.
Did I go to the Commissioner of Police or the Chief Justice to express my frustration with the police when somebody stole my cousin's IC and used it to sign for a phone line, and the dealer even had a clear mug shot of the thief, yet the police were unable to give a definite answer? I didn't...I just sucked it up man. If this matter were the case, many gov. agencies and stat.boards should also be put on the firing line. -
Well, we all can be certain he broke some rules.
However, I must say that if this forces the SAF to clean up it's act with regards to regulars being allowed to "close one eye" one too many times, then it would have been something grudgingly acceptable. -
SpecOps87, while i agree with your points...SOP and COC are made for a reason. The SAF is a uniformed organisation and since it's primary duty is the defence of the nation... her rank and file should have a certain code to follow.
However, I think maybe once you've done time in uniform ( i rem you've not enlisted?) you might change your perspective on such issues. Rules are man made, and in the very dark places and crevices of the military, too many things have been side stepp-ed for the selfish reasons of those who wield power.
cheers -
... in short, the higher ppl climb, the more authority they have to cover up.
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Somehow, I just thought that the Thai "Coup for Democracy" example seems pretty apt right now.
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Yes, I agree that the those in the SAF's rank and file should have a certain code to follow, what I'm emphasizing is that Yes, its right because he blew the whistle on an issue he deems wrong, and yes being AWOL while u're supposed to be on duty is a big wrong, compounded by the fact that the offender is an officer and is covered by a fellow officer the OC,he should have expressed this through the proper channels. Who knows, perhaps he got a pat on the back and higher-ups say "Son, well done. We appreciate you for filling us in."Originally posted by sir sickolot II:SpecOps87, while i agree with your points...SOP and COC are made for a reason. The SAF is a uniformed organisation and since it's primary duty is the defence of the nation... her rank and file should have a certain code to follow.
However, I think maybe once you've done time in uniform ( i rem you've not enlisted?) you might change your perspective on such issues. Rules are man made, and in the very dark places and crevices of the military, too many things have been side stepp-ed for the selfish reasons of those who wield power.
cheers
But if it was another 2LT. a commoner whom fires off such an email, he would probably be bent over and humped big time by his OC and CO and perhaps even be charged with being insubordinate, right?Who would then back this 2LT.? He had the good intention, yes?He wanted to ensure that duty is done, yes?Lastly, he also wanted the very best as a citizen whom pays 7% GST on every item he buys and thus seeks the best defense that this 7% is worth, yes?
There's always two ways of looking at things, what I'm emphasizing is that it is very difficult to be 100% fair. Despite the preventive measures (ie. the rulebook/policies) put in place, there's a factor that cannot be controlled no matter how big the organization is and that is the human factor. Unless all employed are robots. -
which is why the PM's son did right, because he has the backing to screw some of those f---tards over and not get KIA.
and, the only thing that is fair in this world is that nothing is fair. -
i only know time is fair. everyone get 24 hrs a day.Originally posted by Ristar:which is why the PM's son did right, because he has the backing to screw some of those f---tards over and not get KIA.
and, the only thing that is fair in this world is that nothing is fair.
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maybe we can send emails to chief infantry, armr, guard, cdo, arty and plan a coup? all we need to do is have COA to support. den we storm into all the air and navy bases and force them to surrender.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Somehow, I just thought that the Thai "Coup for Democracy" example seems pretty apt right now. -
but this is sad, what is implying here is that the system doesn't work and that we have to depend on some individual few like minister son to do the job? Do we really want that to happen? Isn't this one of the issue. Surrendering yet another right to a few while we don't exercise on the channel that was given.Originally posted by Ristar:which is why the PM's son did right, because he has the backing to screw some of those f---tards over and not get KIA.
and, the only thing that is fair in this world is that nothing is fair. -
Dream on.Originally posted by Unknown_X:maybe we can send emails to chief infantry, armr, guard, cdo, arty and plan a coup? all we need to do is have COA to support. den we storm into all the air and navy bases and force them to surrender.
Coups are for fools.
I mentioned the coup as an analogy. -
in my opinion, i admired young Li's actions in pointing out the loop holes in his unit but he is also in the wrong as he;
1) leave the camp without ensuring his replacement, the LTA came to take over. for me, when i'm doing duty i'll wait till my replacement came before i leave, yes even if i know him very well. cos the reason is simple, i trust him to come to take over rme, but the question is what time will he come? if i leave the camp and he arrives 15 mins late, who can guarantee that within this 15 mins nothing will go wrong?
2) seconfly, shooting e-mail to all the big shots in the SAF. i don't know whether young Li is simply naive or he already understood the consequences of his actions. i believe he does and he probably do it because he felt this is the only way he can get his message across. -
yes, i know wat is implied here. and no, we dun want this to happen, but this is inevitable because no one is interested in wat a nobody with no rank has to say. i mean, NSF has gotta be the lowest ranking people in the armed forces, be it officer or spec.Originally posted by Arapahoe:but this is sad, what is implying here is that the system doesn't work and that we have to depend on some individual few like minister son to do the job? Do we really want that to happen? Isn't this one of the issue. Surrendering yet another right to a few while we don't exercise on the channel that was given.
to my knowledge, the channels are only COC and SAF hotline. COC cover backside, and to date, i dunno how SAF hotline reacts. but, if they get the job done, we would not be "surrendering" any rights.
yes, 2LT Li skipped COC, stopping at the OC, and did not use the SAF hotline. but still, he is a super ultra white horse.
as previously noted, life's unfair. we can only blame watever religion we subscribe to that we arent born in a similar or more powerful family. -
After reading LHY's email, he was acting wrongly for 2 things
- leaving his post before being relieved physically
- not following normal protocol in complaining
However, he did right for 2 things
- getting proper punishment for irresponsible people, especially critical for people who are responsible for the security of the country.
- providing feedback to correct skewed attitude and culture in a public organization, most important when that organization is tasked to maintain security and independence for the nation.
Singaporeans should be happy that there are still people around who care for the well-being of the nation. People who have served in the SAF should be happy that there is someone who still remembers the officer's creed and believes in it.
If there are more people like him in other public organizations and in politics, Singapore will be better. -
When we loose our right it always start from the least obvious, and when we realized it is too late. Just like the minister salary decision we can only make noise in this forum.
The case of Ahli touch on more than 1 issue. (the officer character are minor ones) I believe the Very Least we need to consider the implication behind these rights.
My personal view is that SAF shake up that is between Mindef and Ministry of defense to work with. How SAF is to run is a military decision because it touch on the Chain of Command and military doctrine as a whole 9 yard…bla bla bla … in order to WIN any Battle that is to be fought whatever that comes along. –such as Discipline.
In the case of SG environment, SAF is a civilian military outfit there are already saturated with SAF scholar been infused to work in Gov branch and state own enterprises. Young ahli as he is by blood descendent of the founding father of SG. He will have to live with that. We canÂ’t change any of both the infusion of people and the status quo of ahli.
But SAF has the responsibilities to be impartial and learned to separate political persona from its doctrine so that it served its mission to win, and if Mindef decision are not convincing enough, if people cannot separate or differentiate between civilian branches of gov vs military branch than are we a military gov?
So it is a double wammy for SAF. -
totally agree, i think... he not that stupid lah, he already know the consequences before he actually send out those mail! come to think of it, if he dont send that email, and he go back and complian to his FATHER, or complain to his UNCLE TEO C H..... then.... what other will say about him? .... worst right? ppl will say, HE NO BALLS! KNN, COMPLAIN TO P.M FATHER!Originally posted by Gordonator:in my opinion, i admired young Li's actions in pointing out the loop holes in his unit but he is also in the wrong as he;
1) leave the camp without ensuring his replacement, the LTA came to take over. for me, when i'm doing duty i'll wait till my replacement came before i leave, yes even if i know him very well. cos the reason is simple, i trust him to come to take over rme, but the question is what time will he come? if i leave the camp and he arrives 15 mins late, who can guarantee that within this 15 mins nothing will go wrong?
Most of the old bird will do this, as.... maybe that monkey that going to take over will be 15min or even 1 hr late.... but, i think its only right for the handling over guy to WAIT til the present of the taking over guyz to be around!!! then he is allow to go off....
2) seconfly, shooting e-mail to all the big shots in the SAF. i don't know whether young Li is simply naive or he already understood the consequences of his actions. i believe he does and he probably do it because he felt this is the only way he can get his message across. -
check out mr bown's podcast on the young Li's saga.
http://www.mrbrownshow.com/2007/07/16/the-mrbrown-show-swordsman -
and incorporate with Linkin Park - What I've Done @ at the backgroundOriginally posted by Gordonator:check out mr bown's podcast on the young Li's saga. http://www.mrbrownshow.com/2007/07/16/the-mrbrown-show-swordsman
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Sh!ts... those dam malay-sian are capitalising this saga to run down SAF in their forum.... http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=290205&extra=page%3D1&page=1
Some who can't even know reasoning but will just know how to call our boys cry babies.... what a f***king assh**le.
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Go take a peek at the other side of the coin
http://perspectiveunlimited.blogspot.com/2007/07/lone-tree-hill-incident-at-lim-chu-kang.html
Question...can the whistle blower be granted immunity from any reprisal? -
i imagined this exchange someday on some golf course with LHL. LHY and TCHOriginally posted by Gordonator:in my opinion, i admired young Li's actions in pointing out the loop holes in his unit but he is also in the wrong as he;
1) leave the camp without ensuring his replacement, the LTA came to take over. for me, when i'm doing duty i'll wait till my replacement came before i leave, yes even if i know him very well. cos the reason is simple, i trust him to come to take over rme, but the question is what time will he come? if i leave the camp and he arrives 15 mins late, who can guarantee that within this 15 mins nothing will go wrong?
2) seconfly, shooting e-mail to all the big shots in the SAF. i don't know whether young Li is simply naive or he already understood the consequences of his actions. i believe he does and he probably do it because he felt this is the only way he can get his message across.
TCH: So HY, how is NS?
LHY: Siong Ar :p
TCH: No problem... chicken feed wan... shen me shi qing bu yong pa... gen unker jiang!!!
lame joke on a lazy Friday. I cannot see why then small Lee has the balls to write that email -
If it hadn't been LHY who wrote that email, and it was some other "normal", "unwhite horse" who wrote that email, I think the postings here in this topic will lessen by half. Furthermore, if it hadn't been LHY who wrote that email, would the email's contents have leaked out wide and far? The boy was just doing his duties as a personnel of the SAF. He saw that something was wrong, and decided to report it when he realised that his immediate superiors didn't do anything to solve the problem.
I am not saying LHY is above blame. He left the camp without anyone taking over. He should indeed be punished for that. What I do not like is the fact that some people wants to see him get into trouble just because he is LHL's son, and they felt pleasure at seeing the PM's son get punished just so they can satisfy their anger over LHL/KLY's apparent mistakes in their policies.
This brings to the topic of whistle-blowing. I personally think the whistle-blower should be protected. After all, the backlash against the whistle-blower could be big. Not just in the SAF, but any organization. Why should anyone keep quiet if they see something is wrong, but nothing was done to rectify the mistake?