PM's son's army gaffe and why we have to worry
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wondered if e whole situation wld b e same if a young hot-blooded, self righteous 2lt who is not a white horse did it instead of him... i mean e news is even covered in financial times? haha well done 2lt li!Originally posted by LazerLordz:Now it's on Financial Times as well..
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7b578e20-3160-11dc-891f-0000779fd2ac.html
Singapore PMÂ’s son reprimanded over e-mail
By John Burton in Singapore
Published: July 13 2007 18:02 | Last updated: July 13 2007 18:02
A son of SingaporeÂ’s prime minister has been reprimanded for e-mailing a complaint about a fellow army officer to the country's defence minister and hundreds of other military personnel. The case involving Li Hongyi has served as a lightning rod for criticism on the internet of his familyÂ’s political power.
The defence ministry said on Friday it had issued the reprimand against Mr Li, 20, after his 2,000-word letter of complaint was posted on the internet and drew widespread attention.
Mr Li, a 2nd lieutenant, is the first-born son of Lee Hsien Loong, the prime minister, and Ho Ching, head of Temasek Holdings, the state investment company, and grandson of Lee Kuan Yew, independent Singapore's first leader.
The letter provoked complaints on the internet about the Lee family's political dominance in Singapore.
“No ordinary OCT [officer cadet trainee] would dare to write such a letter addressed to all the big guns in the [defence] ministry,” read one posting on an internet political chatroom.
The internet has emerged as a forum for political criticism of the government in a country where the media is guided by the state.
Mr Li, who is doing his compulsory military service, sent the e-mail last month to Teo Chee Hean, the defence minister, senior military leaders and other army personnel complaining that a colleague had gone absent without leave on two occasions but that no action had been taken by his superiors.
The defence ministry said that Mr Li had gone outside the chain of command “by broadcasting his letter of complaint to many other servicemen – almost all of whom were neither directly under his command, nor in an official capacity where they could deal with the matters contained in his letter of complaint”.
Much of the internet criticism commented on suggestions that Mr Li was apparently being groomed for a future leadership role after being awarded a government scholarship to study economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
The Singapore military has served as a training ground for political leaders and executives in state companies. Mr LiÂ’s father was a brigadier general before entering politics. Temasek announced last week that a former head of the Singapore armed forces had been appointed to the newly created post of portfolio management managing director.
In his complaint letter, Mr Li said his colleague’s continued service in the military was an “embarrassment” and that the armed forces was “not a charity organisation and does not owe anyone a career”.
The defence ministry said that the officer accused by Mr Li had since been court martialled. -
lol. the situation wouldn't be so big la obviously. everyone wants BIG news from BIG people. ooooo. i am hoping PM would say something about this.Originally posted by life2121:wondered if e whole situation wld b e same if a young hot-blooded, self righteous 2lt who is not a white horse did it instead of him... i mean e news is even covered in financial times? haha well done 2lt li!
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I believe if it were a normal 2Lt...he will be labeled a "Bao Toh" kia and be ostracized by his peers. And he would be ripped a new one for skipping the COC.
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I don't think he could.Originally posted by ghast.:lol. the situation wouldn't be so big la obviously. everyone wants BIG news from BIG people. ooooo. i am hoping PM would say something about this. -
I think need to clarify something here, his punishment was "reprimand". This is different from the scolding that it normally means. A reprimand in military law terms is a defined punishment more serious than your normal extras. It is recorded and will affect military careers.Originally posted by life2121:so wat? in e end he still got away wif a verbal warning only... i tink he deserved to b punished more...
If you look up for SAF ACT s118 (1)(a)-(l) in the internet, the punishments are in a hierarchy. The extra duties that we normally get is under (l) while reprimand is in (k) which is a step more serious then (l). -
and how much damage would a formal reprimand have on 2LT Li's career?
would the PSC/Admin Service give 2 hoots? I don't think so.
In any case although he skipped the COC, he did what normal 2LT won't do because they lack the political clout to do so. For 'bao tou-ing' a superior..2LT Li got off with a formal reprimand. If a no-body 2LT did so... the consequences and gravity of punishment would have been different.
In other words, thinking objectively, he is the best person to whistle blow as there is lesser back lash from MINDEF.
However, that does not mean we/ or I condone the act of skiping the COC and emailing a good proportion of SAF. -
Originally posted by wisefool83:
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I think need to clarify something here, his punishment was "reprimand". This is different from the scolding that it normally means. A reprimand in military law terms is a defined punishment more serious than your normal extras. [b]It is recorded and will affect military careers.
If you look up for SAF ACT s118 (1)(a)-(l) in the internet, the punishments are in a hierarchy. The extra duties that we normally get is under (l) while reprimand is in (k) which is a step more serious then (l).[/b]
Sure or not??! His military career can be so easily get affected meh?
OK, let's see after he has completed his study overseas, returned back to Singapore and what rank can he obtain in his military career!
Let's see whether his promotion speed is like another rocket! -
i agree... besides... he has disrupted frm studies... n at most he wld jus serve out e remaining of his NS n get out... go to a cushy garhmen job n den b prepared to take over e dynasty... kao!Originally posted by sir sickolot II:and how much damage would a formal reprimand have on 2LT Li's career?
would the PSC/Admin Service give 2 hoots? I don't think so.
In any case although he skipped the COC, he did what normal 2LT won't do because they lack the political clout to do so. For 'bao tou-ing' a superior..2LT Li got off with a formal reprimand. If a no-body 2LT did so... the consequences and gravity of punishment would have been different.
In other words, thinking objectively, he is the best person to whistle blow as there is lesser back lash from MINDEF.
However, that does not mean we/ or I condone the act of skiping the COC and emailing a good proportion of SAF.
anw oot... my fren telling me something new abt tis case... gonna ask him more... c if i can update more later... -
woah! my fren said someone told him apparently some nsf was picked up by msd cos of tis matter! for wat reason he oso not sure... wah lau... so big now?
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"msd" is?Originally posted by life2121:woah! my fren said someone told him apparently some nsf was picked up by msd cos of tis matter! for wat reason he oso not sure... wah lau... so big now? -
MSD=Mysterious Shadow DevilsOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:"msd" is?
Range from LVL 80-99. HP/MP ???
From survivors accounts, of which are not many, the MSD has the ability to appear and vanish at will. Unquestioning loyalty to their supreme commander, only known as "Paper Tiger". They are faceless and many have made the fatal mistake of viewing them as generic peasants. Yet they are everywhere with eyes in the sky and ears in the wall. The lucky ones who have survived an encounter with them usually end up emotionally withdrawn, and lose their ability of speech.
Special Abilities-
Total Immunity to standard attacks
Internet Mastery
Teleportation
Unlimited Powers of Arrest
Weaknesses- NO KNOWN WEAKNESSES. BE AFRAID.
note-this post is meant to be joke. please don't catch me!!! -
Frankly, would MIT care about his military record? Reprimand or not, it won't matter jack balls to them.
Secondly, it's not the end of the world even in any remote circumstance, PSC decides not retain him after his bond is up.
Who knows, and I'm playing devils' advocate here.. that perhaps deep inside, he never wanted to be a public figure at all, or a civil servant, but rather it was pressure that made him conform. -
Pls lah what was done was done. nothing to say. Its all over the forum n net.Originally posted by life2121:woah! my fren said someone told him apparently some nsf was picked up by msd cos of tis matter! for wat reason he oso not sure... wah lau... so big now?
so don't spread news like this. -
this dude think his the king's son
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The people to pity in the case are the 2 superior officers whom our celeb. officer has complained to the about that officer going AWOL. Now tio condemned...henta kaki cepat henta already. Good Game...
Huh? Those two are the morons who looked the other way when there was a serial AWOL officer in their unit. They're lucky to get only warning letters! Talk about the SAF taking care of its own...I think need to clarify something here, his punishment was "reprimand". This is different from the scolding that it normally means. A reprimand in military law terms is a defined punishment more serious than your normal extras. It is recorded and will affect military careers.
Good point &, to keep the reprimand in context, the consequence of Li's action (reporting misconduct) will override his intention (honorable or not) as well as the punishment itself. He can always claim this, whenever asked what happened.
*Muses* Tough to judge whistleblowing acts, something that can never be unambiguous -- partly why I think the Govt hesitates in enacting any "blanket" protection law. Opinions about them are often irreconcilable, depending on one's prejudice. The chatter here & elsewhere reflect so: Li is either a selfless martyr (hero), or a selfish backstabber (no comeuppence).
The SAF better learn from this. Stressing COC is one thing but, with the Internet influence nowadays, external whistleblowing cannot be managed like before (a REC complaining to his Tekong OO, or a PTE to his constituency MP). The fallout over the Commando/Hu Enhuai case already bore witness.so wat? in e end he still got away wif a verbal warning only... i tink he deserved to b punished more...
For contravening MINDEF General Orders, it's hard to say. Those regulations are restricted info, we dunno what the exact charge was, & what its recommended punishment is.
Still think Li should've been indicted for improper handover of duty. (Maybe he was, but it wasn't reported. Can any lurkers from the SIG BN confirm?) Discussed this with my brother last nite over family dinner. Although a RSAF LTC, he's got experience as a camp commandant so I don't believe he was BS-ing me. Based on the email details, his view was that any AWOL charge wouldn't have stick on Li, & which the SAF must've concurred post-investigations. Ditto any on the duty BOS or equivalent (if there was one), since there was different witnesses vouching that LTA X deceived them about being physically inside the camp.
He saw my point about improper handover, though, but didn't think Li's offense was court martial-able like LTA X's was. To him, a summary trial was adequate, as long as the presiding disciplinary officer is 2 ranks higher. Detention or demotion was too harsh, but one of the more minor penalties (fine, reprimand or extra duties) would've suffice.
But Li wasn't hauled up on any such charge. The SAF disciplined him for broadcasting his complaint to non-relevant personnel instead.would the PSC/Admin Service give 2 hoots? ....would MIT care about his military record?
Note, all he said was "affect military careers". But to respond: Yes, the PSC shall care since Li's on their scholarship; I expect them to review his case unfavorably, but only to put him on probation or something. (Get real, people, a white horse like him still kena charged already.) No, outside entities like MIT won't care, or even know, if there was no media publicity. Only those in sensitive industries like aeroplane, maritime or security, etc. need to conduct such background checks; otherwise it's per what you declare on your resume (& suffer any consequences accordingly). -
aye not trying to spread news or wat lah... jus surprised by wat my fren told me plus dint noe dat tis issue cld b blown to such a big magnitudeOriginally posted by Arapahoe:Pls lah what was done was done. nothing to say. Its all over the forum n net.
so don't spread news like this.
anw if its not suitable e mods can take it down rite?
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haha... very funny.Originally posted by Hellraiza:MSD=Mysterious Shadow Devils
Range from LVL 80-99. HP/MP ???
From survivors accounts, of which are not many, the MSD has the ability to appear and vanish at will. Unquestioning loyalty to their supreme commander, only known as "Paper Tiger". They are faceless and many have made the fatal mistake of viewing them as generic peasants. Yet they are everywhere with eyes in the sky and ears in the wall. The lucky ones who have survived an encounter with them usually end up emotionally withdrawn, and lose their ability of speech.
Special Abilities-
Total Immunity to standard attacks
Internet Mastery
Teleportation
Unlimited Powers of Arrest
Weaknesses- NO KNOWN WEAKNESSES. BE AFRAID.
note-this post is meant to be joke. please don't catch me!!!
could've made it better if u put it in a card form, kinda like BattleTech, Magic or something similar.
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wahaha well done! ristar! haha
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he really power... these things happens all the time in army and it juz that nobody ever voiced it out...
90% of regulars all eat s**t and help each other one.. the more u complain, the worse ur fate...
gd for him to voice it out.. since he got the power to do so oso... -
very true. a soldier is supposed to shut up and do his job. top brass doesn't believe that a lowly lance corporal has views and ideals as well. The only thing that Our Army has thought me is to shut up, don't talk too much, and you bloody well jolly clear your ippt gold, SOC and ATP marksman.Originally posted by kindaichi83:he really power... these things happens all the time in army and it juz that nobody ever voiced it out...
90% of regulars all eat s**t and help each other one.. the more u complain, the worse ur fate...
gd for him to voice it out.. since he got the power to do so oso... -
dun u think 2lt lee did not consult his dad pm lee over the matter b4 typing the email?Originally posted by kindaichi83:he really power... these things happens all the time in army and it juz that nobody ever voiced it out...
90% of regulars all eat s**t and help each other one.. the more u complain, the worse ur fate...
gd for him to voice it out.. since he got the power to do so oso...
dun u think it is a good way to build young lee's name and a reputation for intregrity and justice b4 entering politics later in the future if young lee also decides to enter politics?
yes, young lee is also punished for broadcasting the email to all in the oa email system. but with his a light sentence, whereas the lta is court martialled and the superior officer given the warning, their saf career is already left with a black mark. issit it worthwhile? -
every crime no matter how big or small, MUST be punished.
too many have gone unpunished, and im glad that the lta and his oc were punished. and i hope, to the fullest extent of the law.
if they gave their careers a bloody damn, they wouldnt have done wat they did.
NSF specs and enlistees are the only ones at the receiving end for too long already. those crap bags must pay. -
- email has been posted before. -
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- duplicated -
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what ristar have say it ,we have been at the receiving end for damn too long.... Big or small also we ta... screw those regulars !!!!Originally posted by Ristar:every crime no matter how big or small, MUST be punished.
too many have gone unpunished, and im glad that the lta and his oc were punished. and i hope, to the fullest extent of the law.
if they gave their careers a bloody damn, they wouldnt have done wat they did.
NSF specs and enlistees are the only ones at the receiving end for too long already. those crap bags must pay.