sniper rifle questions.
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Did I mention that? I merely described the minute chance of one ever coming accross the life firing of a PSG1. So erm.....go figure.Originally posted by Gedanken:What's with all that "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you" jive?
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'SHOOTER' is a must watch for sniper fans
bt or cinema your call
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Well, if you're talking about "sensitive information", what's a guy supposed to interpret from that?Originally posted by crosshairs:Did I mention that? I merely described the minute chance of one ever coming accross the life firing of a PSG1. So erm.....go figure.
As for the "deal with it" stuff, it's not as if anyone's going to be shedding any tears over not seeing a spent case eject, so that's over the top. Besides, knowing MG and Dave, I wouldn't bet on them not having fired it, much less seen it. -
load through the ejection port cos more stylo milo....
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Nothing. Which is how it should be.Originally posted by Gedanken:Well, if you're talking about "sensitive information", what's a guy supposed to interpret from that?
That was meant as a joke, I know nobody is gonna shed a tear over it. I also know that the sun is most probably going to rise over the east tomorrow.:As for the "deal with it" stuff, it's not as if anyone's going to be shedding any tears over not seeing a spent case eject, so that's over the top. Besides, knowing MG and Dave, I wouldn't bet on them not having fired it, much less seen it. -
By the way, how is the implentation of the Mini-hecate coming on? Has the SSG69 been officially decommissioned? Is the new L96 adopted by all relevant units and the SIW?
Just like to know. -
SSG69 not officially decomm. yet. Mini-hecate if not mistake should be operational with 6SIR already as saw them on exhibition at last yr's Asian Aerospace. L96 cfm CDO using, others nt too sure.Originally posted by crosshairs:By the way, how is the implentation of the Mini-hecate coming on? Has the SSG69 been officially decommissioned? Is the new L96 adopted by all relevant units and the SIW?
Just like to know. -
HI Crosshair
I agree with you that the MSG-90 is a more "cost effective" weapon to the PSG-1 ! must have mis-read your point ! HOwever, be aware that the PSG-1 has the A1 version which has all the nice kool features that the MSG-90A1 does not have! Again! shot both rifle and they do handle differently, .. maybe the PSG-1 stockset is a little more comfortable for me Also the tripod that came with PSG-1 is a liitle more stable!! I own the MSG-90 system and it is a good solid system ! But if I am given a choice and money aside... I will take the $10k PSG-1! its a class of its own.!
Comming back to the cost effectiveness !I think the PSG-1 and MSG-90 is way overated! I have my Armalite AR-10t that would shoot circles on my MSG-90! the AR10t with match ammo will do 3/4 MOA at 100 meter consistantly! And given to a good shooter I have seen it gone better than that!
DAveC! -
How did you manage to "OWN" a H&K firearm?
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Hey, since you have handled a PSG1, you must have known how it ejects a cartridge.
Can you explain why it was designed that way, or was it a mistake, cos the way I see it no engineer in their right mind would accidentally design an ejection spring with that strength. -
Both Dave and MG are stateside, and they're exercising their right to bear arms.Originally posted by crosshairs:How did you manage to "OWN" a H&K firearm?
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You know, I really wouldn't consider an MSG90 as "Defensive".....
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Hi CrosshairOriginally posted by crosshairs:How did you manage to "OWN" a H&K firearm?
I live in in the great state of Texas and we are fortunate to still have the ability to own guns here. ANyway! come to the PSG-1 and MSG-90 we all know it started thru the G3 series of rifle ! infact a lot of parts in these rifle down to the basic delay roller block system is the same! PSG-1 merely have a slighly differnt bolt carrier design ( have somthing like our bolt assist on M16 to ease hand feeding into the chamber) , match trigger, PSG-1 stock ( which has a heavy buffer over the G3) MSG90 has the same heavy buffer but a sliglt differnt stocjk configuration, reinforcement on the receiver to prevent warpage on the receiver, a weld on scope mount , a differnt barrel and handguard! and the pistol grip! oh! i forgot.... PSG-1 , MSG90 and SR9 series and very early G3 have the Polygonal rifling barrel as compared to the button barrel!
AS for the ejection, When CETME and HK design the G3, becasue of the roller block system, the chamber in the PSG-1, MSG-90 etc is fluted! to ease the ejection..... thus, on the bolt unlock process the flutein the chamber allow back pressure gas to push the empty out ,and the spent is ejected out plus having the ejector on the bolt makes all G3 have very violent ejection! You got to realize when they design the G3, it is made as a close bolt Full auto rifle ! thus the positive ejection is even more crucial! due to the heatbuiltup and speed of feeding and extraction a lot of designer would rather over design the extration process than having it just enough in Full Auto rifle!
I love the HK system of rifle except those new cheaply produced G36 and UMP series! Amazing design on the G3/Mp5 series of guns!
what U see in the picture is a HK SR-9T.. basically a accurizied G3 similar to the MSG90 but do not have the compensator, reinforce receiver and handguard. ... which is a G3 with a MSG-90 stockset with match trigger and a Hensoldt 4x scope ...
sorry! do not have a good picture of my MSG! will post it later!
Cheers !!
DaveC
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Gee dave...i wonder how a cop would feel if he pulls you over by the road. haha, just outta curiosity, do you have a concealed weapons license as well?
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SpecOps, unless Dave's 7' 6" tall and across, how the devil is he going to conceal that kind of hardware?!Originally posted by SpecOps87:Gee dave...i wonder how a cop would feel if he pulls you over by the road. haha, just outta curiosity, do you have a concealed weapons license as well? -
If the state or city's firearm carry ordinance does not specifically require the weapon to be concealed, Dave could legally just sling the rifles on his shoulder and go about his daily business.Originally posted by Gedanken:SpecOps, unless Dave's 7' 6" tall and across, how the devil is he going to conceal that kind of hardware?!
The cops would probably still haul him in for creating a public disturbance, though. -
Dave, I have disassembled an MP5 on one occassion and I understand that it was a blowback design and not gas operated. Are you saying that the MSG90 is a blowback as well? In that case, would it be right to also assume that it is not a rotating bolt design?
Compare MSG90's recoil with that of a Colt 5.56 you have there, which one gives more impact?
I always had the impression that when we fire an M16, due to the design of the bolt, the firer is subjected to the full reaction of the round going off until such time the bolt has fully rotated to the position which allows it to retract and begin to pull the spent cartridge out of the chamber. Is that the case? Or is the gas operation fast enough to push the bolt reciever such that it rotates and pulls the bolt faster than the projectile can reach the end of the barrel, which I think is improbable? -
HI CrosshairOriginally posted by crosshairs:Dave, I have disassembled an MP5 on one occassion and I understand that it was a blowback design and not gas operated. Are you saying that the MSG90 is a blowback as well? In that case, would it be right to also assume that it is not a rotating bolt design?
Compare MSG90's recoil with that of a Colt 5.56 you have there, which one gives more impact?
I always had the impression that when we fire an M16, due to the design of the bolt, the firer is subjected to the full reaction of the round going off until such time the bolt has fully rotated to the position which allows it to retract and begin to pull the spent cartridge out of the chamber. Is that the case? Or is the gas operation fast enough to push the bolt reciever such that it rotates and pulls the bolt faster than the projectile can reach the end of the barrel, which I think is improbable?
MP5, MSG90 , G3 all use the same principle ! it is Delayed roller lock system! it is not a straight blow back like the UZI, ... if you strip an MP5 you will see two rollers and that roller act as a cam to delay the opening of the bolt and let the round to leave the barrel.. before opening up the bolt! kind of a locking type deal! YEs you are right! the MP5,G3 all does not use a Gas system like the AK, M16, FAL!. They all run on rotating bolt! MP5 just is a minaturized version of the G3.
AS for the M16 over MSG90! ... we are comparing a 7.62x51mm cartridge over 5.56x45mm cartridge! 147 grain bullet over 55 grain! so! the M16 will gives a lighter recoil impulse! and belief me! the g3, PSG-1 etc all kick like a son__^*&(*(*(). even comparing an M16 to an AK47 or AKM... the 7.62x39mm has much larger recoil impulse than an M16 .... thus the M16 is so much more controllable in FA firing ! but comaring the 5.45x39mm on the AK74 ! it has less recoil impluse than a full size M16A2.
As for the M16 Stoner gas system ! it is a direct gas system , so, the bullet will leave the barrle, the gas will be blown thru the gas port into the gas tube which brings back to the bolt carrier which in turns, unlock the bolt carrier on the backward travel, extract the round, load in a new one!
Cheeers!
DaveC! -
HI MG and GedankenOriginally posted by Meia Gisborn:If the state or city's firearm carry ordinance does not specifically require the weapon to be concealed, Dave could legally just sling the rifles on his shoulder and go about his daily business.
The cops would probably still haul him in for creating a public disturbance, though.
Texas do not have laws against long guns! which means you can legally have all the goodies including your AK, G3, M4 all in the car without any conceal lisence needed ! the COnceal lisence only applies to handguns only.
YEah! it would be funny carrying your MP5 and M4 into downtown DAllas!
in Texas if you are travelling, you can legally have a handgun or rifle in your car to protect you...( I mean a loaded pistol under your seat or glove compartment ). The State will have to proof that you are NOT travelling to prosecute a person travelling on the road with a firearms!
NOT RECOMMENDED>>!!
MG! does your state has any provision against long guns???
DAveC! -
HI Specops87....Originally posted by SpecOps87:Gee dave...i wonder how a cop would feel if he pulls you over by the road. haha, just outta curiosity, do you have a concealed weapons license as well?
the cop cannot do anything becasue I have long guns! ..... not a thing!
and yes !I do have conceal handgun lisence!
DaveC -
I guess making you compare an apple to an orange isn't really a good idea.The reason I'm asking you this is to see if indeed I have been right all along about the spring assembly having little or no effect at all in absorbing the recoil. Indeed the delayed roller lock system did delay the movement of the block, but it was nevertheless a movement at the moment of explosion, judging from the design of the bolt. As opposed to the bolt in an M16, which would still be locked in position at the point of ignition until the round was almost clear of the barrel.Originally posted by davechng:HI Crosshair
MP5, MSG90 , G3 all use the same principle ! it is Delayed roller lock system! it is not a straight blow back like the UZI, ... if you strip an MP5 you will see two rollers and that roller act as a cam to delay the opening of the bolt and let the round to leave the barrel.. before opening up the bolt! kind of a locking type deal! YEs you are right! the MP5,G3 all does not use a Gas system like the AK, M16, FAL!. They all run on rotating bolt! MP5 just is a minaturized version of the G3.
AS for the M16 over MSG90! ... we are comparing a 7.62x51mm cartridge over 5.56x45mm cartridge! 147 grain bullet over 55 grain! so! the M16 will gives a lighter recoil impulse! and belief me! the g3, PSG-1 etc all kick like a son__^*&(*(*(). even comparing an M16 to an AK47 or AKM... the 7.62x39mm has much larger recoil impulse than an M16 .... thus the M16 is so much more controllable in FA firing ! but comaring the 5.45x39mm on the AK74 ! it has less recoil impluse than a full size M16A2.
As for the M16 Stoner gas system ! it is a direct gas system , so, the bullet will leave the barrle, the gas will be blown thru the gas port into the gas tube which brings back to the bolt carrier which in turns, unlock the bolt carrier on the backward travel, extract the round, load in a new one!
Cheeers!
DaveC!
In the army we were told all sorts of stories like how an exit wound the size of a fist was caused by the spin of the projectile, and how an M16 had a lower recoil because it had a spring in the stock. Of course they tried to compare the Steyr SSG69 with the M16A1. Some bright guy was smart enough to point out that the 2 calibres were different, only to be rebutted by a goon who asked, "What about the 9mm(parabellum) round in the P226? That's even larger calibre."
But I didn't quite get the confirmation I wanted. Does the firer of the M16 experience the full impact of the 5.56mm cartridge for the entire travel time of the round down the barrel up till the opening of the gas port? -
Dave,Originally posted by davechng:HI MG and Gedanken
Texas do not have laws against long guns! which means you can legally have all the goodies including your AK, G3, M4 all in the car without any conceal lisence needed ! the COnceal lisence only applies to handguns only.
YEah! it would be funny carrying your MP5 and M4 into downtown DAllas!
in Texas if you are travelling, you can legally have a handgun or rifle in your car to protect you...( I mean a loaded pistol under your seat or glove compartment ). The State will have to proof that you are NOT travelling to prosecute a person travelling on the road with a firearms!
NOT RECOMMENDED>>!!
MG! does your state has any provision against long guns???
DAveC!
Here in Minnesota, a handgun carry permit is not required to transport firearms in a vehicle, but the firearms have to be unloaded, cased, and placed in a compartment of the vehicle separate from the passenger cabin (like the trunk).
If one possesses a handgun carry permit, the handgun can be on the person of the permit holder in the vehicle, but long guns are still subject to the restrictions indicated above.
Minnesota's handgun carry law does not require the gun to be concealed, but practical considerations dictate otherwise. -
Do not know if this answer what your Q!! in the M4 ... Under optimum condition, the Bolt lockup will be lock until the round leave barrel! MG may be able to confirm this for me! ..... as for the G3 ! it is the same thing..... the Bolt will be lock and seal! .till the bullet leaves the barrel, .. the delay blow back will delay the backward thrust till the bullet have left the barrel before opening up the chamber and extraction!Originally posted by crosshairs:But I didn't quite get the confirmation I wanted. Does the firer of the M16 experience the full impact of the 5.56mm cartridge for the entire travel time of the round down the barrel up till the opening of the gas port?
Har har ! very funny! 9mm larger caliber than the 5.56 or 7.62... oh well!
Well! the buffer spring plus the buffer is there to take out part of the recoil until the spring is fully compress or when the buffer reach its most rearward position! reason I said that , for my M4, I totally replace the rear buffer spring with a MGI hydraulic buffer which in terms have a stronger tension and thus reduce felt recoil and reduce my Rate of fire from about 900 RPM to 600 RPM in full auto fire on the M4.
Another good example is my freind has a G3... he lighten the recoil spring and smoothen part of the hammer /action and thus you get a glide feel of the G3 bolt carrier ! you can feel the carrier slamming on your face evertime you shoot the gun ! the recoil effect is just unbearable !so! in that sense, the spring does make a differnce!
DaveC! -
Hi MG!Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:Dave,
Here in Minnesota, a handgun carry permit is not required to transport firearms in a vehicle, but the firearms have to be unloaded, cased, and placed in a compartment of the vehicle separate from the passenger cabin (like the trunk).
If one possesses a handgun carry permit, the handgun can be on the person of the permit holder in the vehicle, but long guns are still subject to the restrictions indicated above.
Minnesota's handgun carry law does not require the gun to be concealed, but practical considerations dictate otherwise.
WOw ! did not know Minnesota have such strict gunlaws! I guess anything is better than those communist state of Kalifornia , NJ or MA!
DaveC! -
(Not Dave here, but....)Originally posted by crosshairs:I guess making you compare an apple to an orange isn't really a good idea.The reason I'm asking you this is to see if indeed I have been right all along about the spring assembly having little or no effect at all in absorbing the recoil. Indeed the delayed roller lock system did delay the movement of the block, but it was nevertheless a movement at the moment of explosion, judging from the design of the bolt. As opposed to the bolt in an M16, which would still be locked in position at the point of ignition until the round was almost clear of the barrel.
In the army we were told all sorts of stories like how an exit wound the size of a fist was caused by the spin of the projectile, and how an M16 had a lower recoil because it had a spring in the stock. Of course they tried to compare the Steyr SSG69 with the M16A1. Some bright guy was smart enough to point out that the 2 calibres were different, only to be rebutted by a goon who asked, "What about the 9mm(parabellum) round in the P226? That's even larger calibre."
But I didn't quite get the confirmation I wanted. Does the firer of the M16 experience the full impact of the 5.56mm cartridge for the entire travel time of the round down the barrel up till the opening of the gas port?
Short answer: on the AR15/M16, recoil isn't felt until the projectile exits the barrel.
Long answer: when the cartridge is ignited, the propellant combusts rapidly. The gas expands and pushes equally in all directions, but it hasn't been vented yet. When the projectile passes the gas port, some of the expanding gas is directed through the port and into the gas tube to push the bolt carrier back and begin unlocking the bolt. At this point, there is still no felt recoil as the expanding gas has not been vented out of the closed system yet. As the projectile exits the barrel, the expanding gas is vented out the muzzle and the bolt carrier, with the bolt now unlocked, is driven by gas pressure back against the recoil spring in the buffer tube. The recoil felt by the shooter is thus a combination of the expanding gas escaping at the muzzle and bolt carrier's rearward travel.
Does that answer your question?