A Defense of the Bible
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
the joke is on who, you or henry ford?
you want a ford car and you want to choose your own color, don't joke.
you want to sell me your car and you want me to accept black, don't joke.
the outsiders are the one laughing.
Dunno what u mean....nevermind though....I dun own a car....
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I think the sober truth behind that is that the creator sets the rules. Henry Ford made his cars the way he wants it. It's his prerogative since he is the creator. The choice is either to buy or not to buy his car. That choice is the buyer's freedom.
The same with God. He is the Creator so He sets the moral rules and criteria. The freedom of choice for man is whether he would choose to obey God or continue in sin. The Bible does not teach that man gets to choose heaven or hell. The Bible teaches that man is already dead in Adam and bound for hell UNLESS he repents and believes and cross over from death to life.
Yeap...that'll be the christian perspective...
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Yeap...that'll be the christian perspective...
Anyway, I think the point I want to make is that there is a genuine free choice to be exercised here, contrary to what laurence was complaining about.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Anyway, I think the point I want to make is that there is a genuine free choice to be exercised here, contrary to what laurence was complaining about.
Yes I do think that religion and faith have choices....
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Yes I do think that religion and faith have choices....
Actually the debate is also about whether humans have free wills to make free choices, though laurence is apparently confused between the lack of choices available and the ability to exercise free will. The fact that you have only black color Ford cars do not negate the existence of free will, that you can choose to buy or not.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Actually the debate is also about whether humans have free wills to make free choices, though laurence is apparently confused between the lack of choices available and the ability to exercise free will. The fact that you have only black color Ford cars do not negate the existence of free will, that you can choose to buy or not.
Hahaha! Freewill...hmmmm....why do God have to do that ? Its after Adam's fall right? Or is it before? So Adam and Eve had freewill too ?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Hahaha! Freewill...hmmmm....why do God have to do that ? Its after Adam's fall right? Or is it before? So Adam and Eve had freewill too ?
Yes, if not they would not have been able to choose to eat from the tree and be held responsible for their defiance. With free will comes responsibility and accountability. You cannot hold people responsible for things they have no free will over.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Yes, if not they would not have been able to choose to eat from the tree and be held responsible for their defiance. With free will comes responsibility and accountability. You cannot hold people responsible for things they have no free will over.
If God is Almighty and Knows all and Sees all, why did He create humans and angels that He knew would fall from grace eventually ? What's His point ?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
If God is Almighty and Knows all and Sees all, why did He create humans and angels that He knew would fall from grace eventually ? What's His point ?
I think that purpose can be gleamed in Ephesians 3:9-10, "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord." -
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I think that purpose can be gleamed in Ephesians 3:9-10, "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."Still dun get it....what's His point ?
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if u knew ur child was going to be handicapped in some ways, would u still bring him/her into tis world? maybe u wun but how abt the couples who chose to do so? wad do u tink made them do tat?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Still dun get it....what's His point ?
Many years ago I read this book titled "We Shall Judge Angels" by Harold Chadwick which I found to be rather enlightening, though I would disagree with him on some finer details. But I think the overall premise is right on the money! Let me explain briefly.
God knows all things from the beginning to the end. So why still go on with the whole thing? We have the created order, the spiritual powers and authorities (angels, and those that later rebelled) and the earthly creations (man and animals etc). All were perfect and without sin after God has created them and called it very good. Yet between then and Adam's fall there was the fall of Satan and the angels that rebelled. Here you have a class of free-willed spirit beings higher than man, who rebelled against God. These were cast out of heaven, some bound in chains (tartarus) while others were allowed to roam the earth (the evil spirits/demons), and of course the devil himself. And there were those angels who did not rebel against God.
Through humans, who did not possess any powers like the angels, God worked through their eventual rebellion and sin to redeem for Himself a people (the Bride) for Christ. And through this imperfect people (the Church) who were created "lower than the angels" God will show all the angels (fallen or not) the riches of His glory and manifold wisdom and the depth of His love through Christ Jesus. At the end when the curtains of history are drawn, all creation will finally see the big picture (the eternal purpose of God) and give praise to God for all that He has done, and understand and appreciate the wisdom of God through all the ages. Nothing was done in vain. It was to be like a "show" to the angels, the created spirit beings (esp the fallen angels) how foolish they were to rebel against God.
This in a nutshell sums up what I believe to be the "why" to your question. There's more to be said but for that you would have to read the book!
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Dunno what u mean....nevermind though....I dun own a car....
why then do you find the statement about Henry Ford funny?
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Originally posted by despondent:
if u knew ur child was going to be handicapped in some ways, would u still bring him/her into tis world? maybe u wun but how abt the couples who chose to do so? wad do u tink made them do tat?
you have to ask your god why is the child born or going to be handicapped in the first place
if he has power and almighty, why cant he create all his creations perfect? dun give me crap reasons and excuses, like you dun understand god plans for us or human limitations. anything but the question reply
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tsk tsk tsk tsk ........................ t r x l l !
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To jacky
U miss the pt I was making to demon bane. It's ok, my reply was specifically for him anyway. Let's see wad he says
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Originally posted by Jacky Woo:
you have to ask your god why is the child born or going to be handicapped in the first place
if he has power and almighty, why cant he create all his creations perfect? dun give me crap reasons and excuses, like you dun understand god plans for us or human limitations. anything but the question reply
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To Jacky, What u remarked makes sense lah. To blame ''god'' ( in quotes cos it is definition that reduces the infinite into a finite entity!) is a cop-out. I could be wrong/rite - intuitively I feel that it has nothing whatsoever to do with god'''- itiis most likely to do with genetics and ... (which I m no expert) and of course, the human mind is such that it always assumes that it is wrong to be born handicapped. Handicapped people existed before u and I came to be born. Wars, famine, poverty and ... also came before us. It will always be there and sadly, human beings cannot seem to accept that it is the way it has been and will always be. However, this topic is about Christianity and the Bible and ... the day and moment when organized religion, be it Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and .... (add on what comes to mind) transcends and is inclusive of all living beings; animate and inanimate there is hope, otherwise it is all in vain. It is good in the exam hall, good to preach but it amounts to nothing if it is merely words! The word love is merely a word and it is only real (existentially true) when the process of loving ... transpires. My quoting the bible or quoting the Dhamappada does not make me a ''holy'' person nor does that make me religious. It is only when I am being kind, being inclusive or .... without discrmination who deserves or not deserves that I am being religious or .... When one is being kind, being considerate, being inclusive - one is being ''God'' or being Jesus or being Mohd or ... that when it transpires is edifiying and most of all it is an existential reality. Otherwise, quoting texts, quoting scriptures, quoting authorities, cutting and pasting ... to justify one's position or viewpoint - to me is simply plyaing mind-games. Looking outside of onself - one is dreaming, looking within oneself - one awakens. Knowledge does not transform, only knowing transforms!
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@ Jacky What u remarked makes sense lah. To blame ''god'' ( in quotes cos it is definition that reduces the infinite into a finite entity!) is a cop-out. I could be wrong/rite - intuitively I feel that it has nothing whatsoever to do with god'''- itiis most likely to do with genetics and ... (which I m no expert) and of course, the human mind is such that it always assumes that it is wrong to be born handicapped. Handicapped people existed before u and I came to be born. Wars, famine, poverty and ... also came before us. It will always be there and sadly, human beings cannot seem to accept that it is the way it has been and will always be. However, this topic is about Christianity and the Bible and ... the day and moment when organized religion, be it Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and .... (add on what comes to mind) transcends and is inclusive of all living beings; animate and inanimate there is hope, otherwise it is all in vain. It is good in the exam hall, good to preach but it amounts to nothing if it is merely words! The word love is merely a word and it is only real (existentially true) when the process of loving ... transpires. My quoting the bible or quoting the Dhamappada does not make me a ''holy'' person nor does that make me religious. It is only when I am being kind, being inclusive or .... without discrmination who deserves or not deserves that I am being religious or .... When one is being kind, being considerate, being inclusive - one is being ''God'' or being Jesus or being Mohd or ... that when it transpires is edifiying and most of all it is an existential reality. Otherwise, quoting texts, quoting scriptures, quoting authorities, cutting and pasting ... to justify one's position or viewpoint - to me is simply plyaing mind-games. Looking outside of onself - one is dreaming, looking within oneself - one awakens. Knowledge does not transform, only knowing transforms!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Many years ago I read this book titled "We Shall Judge Angels" by Harold Chadwick which I found to be rather enlightening, though I would disagree with him on some finer details. But I think the overall premise is right on the money! Let me explain briefly.
God knows all things from the beginning to the end. So why still go on with the whole thing? We have the created order, the spiritual powers and authorities (angels, and those that later rebelled) and the earthly creations (man and animals etc). All were perfect and without sin after God has created them and called it very good. Yet between then and Adam's fall there was the fall of Satan and the angels that rebelled. Here you have a class of free-willed spirit beings higher than man, who rebelled against God. These were cast out of heaven, some bound in chains (tartarus) while others were allowed to roam the earth (the evil spirits/demons), and of course the devil himself. And there were those angels who did not rebel against God.
Through humans, who did not possess any powers like the angels, God worked through their eventual rebellion and sin to redeem for Himself a people (the Bride) for Christ. And through this imperfect people (the Church) who were created "lower than the angels" God will show all the angels (fallen or not) the riches of His glory and manifold wisdom and the depth of His love through Christ Jesus. At the end when the curtains of history are drawn, all creation will finally see the big picture (the eternal purpose of God) and give praise to God for all that He has done, and understand and appreciate the wisdom of God through all the ages. Nothing was done in vain. It was to be like a "show" to the angels, the created spirit beings (esp the fallen angels) how foolish they were to rebel against God.
This in a nutshell sums up what I believe to be the "why" to your question. There's more to be said but for that you would have to read the book!
Hmmm....nice point of view....Thanks for explaining...
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Originally posted by despondent:
if u knew ur child was going to be handicapped in some ways, would u still bring him/her into tis world? maybe u wun but how abt the couples who chose to do so? wad do u tink made them do tat?
If the decision was mine, I would not do it....
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Originally posted by Fugazzi:
To Jacky,
What u remarked makes sense lah. To blame ’’god’’ ( in quotes cos it is definition that reduces the infinite into a finite entity!) is a cop-out. I could be wrong/rite – intuitively I feel that it has nothing whatsoever to do with god’’’- itiis most likely to do with genetics and … (which I m no expert) and of course, the human mind is such that it always assumes that it is wrong to be born handicapped. Handicapped people existed before u and I came to be born. Wars, famine, poverty and … also came before us. It will always be there and sadly, human beings cannot seem to accept that it is the way it has been and will always be.However, this topic is about Christianity and the Bible and ... the day and moment when organized religion, be it Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and .... (add on what comes to mind) transcends and is inclusive of all living beings; animate and inanimate there is hope, otherwise it is all in vain.It is good in the exam hall, good to preach but it amounts to nothing if it is merely words! The word love is merely a word and it is only real (existentially true) when the process of loving ... transpires. My quoting the bible or quoting the Dhamappada does not make me a ''holy'' person nor does that make me religious. It is only when I am being kind, being inclusive or .... without discrmination who deserves or not deserves that I am being religious or ....When one is being kind, being considerate, being inclusive - one is being ''God'' or being Jesus or being Mohd or ... that when it transpires is edifiying and most of all it is an existential reality. Otherwise, quoting texts, quoting scriptures, quoting authorities, cutting and pasting ... to justify one's position or viewpoint - to me is simply plyaing mind-games. Looking outside of onself - one is dreaming, looking within oneself - one awakens. Knowledge does not transform, only knowing transforms!Indeed to blame God is a cop-out, because the Bible teaches that it is man's sin that was responsible for the world being cursed and fallen. But who told you that all the bad things you mentioned had always been there and will always be?
If your point is merely that we should walk the talk and not just talk the talk, then that is fine. I am in agreement with you on that. You talked about being kind and loving, but you failed to give the reason why. Why be kind and loving? Because it is good? But why is being kind and loving good? Because it's your opinion that it is good? Where and on what are you going to ground your moral values or judgements?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
If the decision was mine, I would not do it....
Interesting response. Mind if I ask you further, in a Buddhist mindset, would killing this life (aborting it) because of some handicap be permitted? Wouldn't you accept that this could be your karma working itself out, or that this baby is simply paying off its previous karma? If you kill this life, wouldn't you be going against your own karmic effects and also compounding it further? You can PM me your reply if Jacky would be fuming mad if you talk about Buddhism further here.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Interesting response. Mind if I ask you further, in a Buddhist mindset, would killing this life (aborting it) because of some handicap be permitted? Wouldn't you accept that this could be your karma working itself out, or that this baby is simply paying off its previous karma? If you kill this life, wouldn't you be going against your own karmic effects and also compounding it further? You can PM me your reply if Jacky would be fuming mad if you talk about Buddhism further here.
Check your PM...
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Knowledge does not transform, only knowing transforms. One has to understand that most people live in their ''heads''; they are not living. To live in the head means, missing what is obvious, missing the isness of existence. How can one not miss? One is either wallowing in the past, or one is escaping into the future. The past the and future or not existential in nature, psycholigically they exist! Hence, I remarked knowing; knowing cannot happen in the past nor in the future.