Originally posted by BroInChrist:Well, you made the claim that it is possible to empirically prove a miracle that happened 2000 years ago. Prove that claim please. If you cannot do this, I don't see why I should even entertain you any further on this.
Are you serious...........?
Originally posted by Tcmc:Are you serious...........?
Dead serious.
True of course.But accepting this would dent the western/white superiority. And vatican cannot get all the funds and own property world wide. So close an eye to this while collecting money.
BIC
So are you gonna try reproducing the miracles?
Cos initially you told me you cant but now you seem like you wanna reproduce them.
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC
So are you gonna try reproducing the miracles?
Cos initially you told me you cant but now you seem like you wanna reproduce them.
Right, when you have produced what I asked for, to be fair. You tell me how I can go about proving empirically that a miracle happened 2000 years ago and I will show you the evidence you demand. Fair boh?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Right, when you have produced what I asked for, to be fair. You tell me how I can go about proving empirically that a miracle happened 2000 years ago and I will show you the evidence you demand. Fair boh?
I did not make any claim.
You made the claim that miracles are real. Then naturally anyone would ask the claimant (you) to prove it by reproducing it.
Now you counter-ask me to produce the means for you to prove?
When a scientist or a researcher makes a claim or a statement, he goes and research an dproves it. He doesnt go around begging people for the means for him to prove his statement.
You really dont know what is meant by "proving a claim"
Originally posted by Tcmc:I did not make any claim.
You made the claim that miracles are real. Then naturally anyone would ask the claimant (you) to prove it by reproducing it.
Now you counter-ask me to produce the means for you to prove?
When a scientist or a researcher makes a claim or a statement, he goes and research an dproves it. He doesnt go around begging people for the means for him to prove his statement.
You really dont know what is meant by "proving a claim"
Tcmc,
LOL! Now you are shaking in your knees liao ya? You asked me to empirically prove that miracles happened. This means that you KNOW there is a way to do so. I asked you what is the accepted way to empirically prove miracles happened 2000 years ago and you now give crap excuses? I am 100% willing to provide the proofs you want, but you are 100% unwilling to supply the tools for such a task. When a scientist makes a scientific claim, he knows he can rely on the scientific method to prove or disprove a claim. Now tell me, what methodology should I use to prove that an event or miracle took place 2000 years ago?
You still cannot provide me with an answer?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
LOL! Now you are shaking in your knees liao ya? You asked me to empirically prove that miracles happened. This means that you KNOW there is a way to do so. I asked you what is the accepted way to empirically prove miracles happened 2000 years ago and you now give crap excuses? I am 100% willing to provide the proofs you want, but you are 100% unwilling to supply the tools for such a task. When a scientist makes a scientific claim, he knows he can rely on the scientific method to prove or disprove a claim. Now tell me, what methodology should I use to prove that an event or miracle took place 2000 years ago?
You still cannot provide me with an answer?
You make a claim and you ask me how to prove it? Hahahahaha! This is by far the funniest thing I have heard.
BIC, honestly, I have met christians who are more humble than you are. They make a claim about miracles but they admitthey cannot prove it. They also tell me that it is by faith that they believe that the miracles took place. And I accepted their reasoning. These christians are nice and reasonable.
But you? You want to twist your argument, twist facts. You want to talk as if you can prove the miracles when in fact you can't and also push the responsibility to me. You were the one who made the claim.
Come on, if you made a claim, YOU find the means to prove it. No one goes around begging for the means to prove something they claimed.
Scientists use the scientific method and they prove their claim. If you cant use the scientific method, then find another method to prove your claim! No one goes around BEGGING for the means to prove their own claims!!
End of the day, like what Rooney said, the onus is ON YOU, the claimant, to prove your claims, no matter what method you use, I dont care. But if you claim it, you prove it.
Can you imagine when Isaac Newton proposed about gravity and someone asks him to prove it and Isaac Newton says "GIVE ME THE METHODOLOGY TO PROVE GRAVITY THEN I WILL SHOW YOU THAT GRAVITY IS REAL!"
Seriously, you are ridiculous beyond hope
Originally posted by Tcmc:
You make a claim and you ask me how to prove it? Hahahahaha! This is by far the funniest thing I have heard.
BIC, honestly, I have met christians who are more humble than you are. They make a claim about miracles but they admitthey cannot prove it. They also tell me that it is by faith that they believe that the miracles took place. And I accepted their reasoning. These christians are nice and reasonable.
But you? You want to twist your argument, twist facts. You want to talk as if you can prove the miracles when in fact you can't and also push the responsibility to me. You were the one who made the claim.
Come on, if you made a claim, YOU find the means to prove it. No one goes around begging for the means to prove something they claimed.
Scientists use the scientific method and they prove their claim. If you cant use the scientific method, then find another method to prove your claim! No one goes around BEGGING for the means to prove their own claims!!
End of the day, like what Rooney said, the onus is ON YOU, the claimant, to prove your claims, no matter what method you use, I dont care. But if you claim it, you prove it.
Can you imagine when Isaac Newton proposed about gravity and someone asks him to prove it and Isaac Newton says "GIVE ME THE METHODOLOGY TO PROVE GRAVITY THEN I WILL SHOW YOU THAT GRAVITY IS REAL!"
Seriously, you are ridiculous beyond hope
There are some christians who are genuinely sincere and kind. Some are willing to exercise the love of god to reach out and communicate with people , whereas some are so full of themselves. To those who are full of themselves, they are just losing out that is all.
BIC,
Thank goodness most christians I have met are nice people and not insistent on the wrong things. Despondent is one such christian on this forum!
TCMC, some christians though they cannot answer the questions they are nice to tell that they will find out and let us know later. True, they got the answer and tell, true to their words. Whether non believers accept the answers or not it is not an issue to them, they no fight back due to motivation by arrogance and easily bruised ego. Some christians are such that they are always right but refuse to admit it.
There is also one who came from the lighthouse church. She came here to answer questions about Rony Tan. She was with humility and kindness, did not bash non christians and pose to be difficult. Most non christians accept her.
Originally posted by winsomeea:TCMC, some christians though they cannot answer the questions they are nice to tell that they will find out and let us know later. True, they got the answer and tell, true to their words. Whether non believers accept the answers or not it is not an issue to them, they no fight back due to motivation by arrogance and easily bruised ego. Some christians are such that they are always right but refuse to admit it.
I am glad there are nice christians around!
I personally have a very nice christian cousin. I also have some nice christian friends who dont mind going out for a few drinks with me yet they are still christian.
LOVE THEM!
Originally posted by Tcmc:
You make a claim and you ask me how to prove it? Hahahahaha! This is by far the funniest thing I have heard.
BIC, honestly, I have met christians who are more humble than you are. They make a claim about miracles but they admitthey cannot prove it. They also tell me that it is by faith that they believe that the miracles took place. And I accepted their reasoning. These christians are nice and reasonable.
But you? You want to twist your argument, twist facts. You want to talk as if you can prove the miracles when in fact you can't and also push the responsibility to me. You were the one who made the claim.
Come on, if you made a claim, YOU find the means to prove it. No one goes around begging for the means to prove something they claimed.
Scientists use the scientific method and they prove their claim. If you cant use the scientific method, then find another method to prove your claim! No one goes around BEGGING for the means to prove their own claims!!
End of the day, like what Rooney said, the onus is ON YOU, the claimant, to prove your claims, no matter what method you use, I dont care. But if you claim it, you prove it.
Can you imagine when Isaac Newton proposed about gravity and someone asks him to prove it and Isaac Newton says "GIVE ME THE METHODOLOGY TO PROVE GRAVITY THEN I WILL SHOW YOU THAT GRAVITY IS REAL!"
Seriously, you are ridiculous beyond hope
Tcmc,
1. Since when did I ask you to prove that miracles in the Bible happened? I am only asking you to prove the claim that it is empirically possible to prove that miracles happened. And if so, provide the methodology. Until now you still FAIL to do so.
2. I see that humble Christians are those who agree with you. What a self-serving definition of humility!
3. How am I twisting anything? You said that miracles can be empirically proven. I asked you how. You cannot answer me and now you are blaming me for your failure? Please don't try to divert things here. You demand for empirical proof that miracles happened. I am asking you to first prove the claim that there are empirical methods for proving such things. Do you not know that the scientific method is the empirical method? Looks like you don't know anything at all! Tell me what other method is empirical besides the scientific method. You tell me and I sure provide you the proof you demand.
4. Yes, the one who makes the claim prove the claim. So since you make the claim that empirical methods can prove that miracles happened, I am asking you to prove that claim. Why can't you do that? Tell me you are denying that empirical methods can prove miracles and I will not push this point and embarass you further.
5. Isaac Newton used the scientific method to prove gravity. I have no quarrel with that at all. I will use the scientific method to prove a scientific claim. But now we are talking HISTORY, whether something happened before. So tell me again, what accepted empirical methodology do you have in mind that can be used to prove that miracles happened 2000 years ago? How come you still cannot give me a simple answer to a simple question?
6. For the record I say it again. You show me how miracles can be proven by empirical means and I will show you that the miracles happened. Until now you FAILED to rise up to the challenge. I am willing to shoulder the burden of proof. I am NOT asking you to prove the miracles in the Bible so don't be so defensive and scared. I am only asking you if you know of any empirical way to prove that miracles happened. If you don't know, then how are you going to assess anything?
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC,
Thank goodness most christians I have met are nice people and not insistent on the wrong things. Despondent is one such christian on this forum!
Tcmc,
Please show where I have insisted on the wrong things. Note that this means that you must first prove that the things are WRONG, and then that I am insisting that the wrong is right. If you fail to do that then your accusation is baseless.
Originally posted by Tcmc:I am glad there are nice christians around!
I personally have a very nice christian cousin. I also have some nice christian friends who dont mind going out for a few drinks with me yet they are still christian.
LOVE THEM!
Think we should adopt discussion only with nice Christians who don't have any easily bruised ego and arrogance. Most of the time, these people only argue for the sake of arguing and are very protective over their own ego, no practice of love from God which is the essence of Christianity. This is just a suggestion from me, no obligation .
I agree with you that despondent is OK. Even a few of my christian friends are also ok. They are nice and we respect each other.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:5. Isaac Newton used the scientific method to prove gravity.
Keynes' thoughts on Newton's ideas:
Again, there is some evidence that Newton in preparing the Principia was held up almost to the last moment by lack of proof that you could treat a solid sphere as though all its mass was concentrated at the centre, and only hit on the proof a year before publication.
But this was a truth which he had known for certain and had always assumed for many years.
Certainly there can be no doubt that the peculiar geometrical form in which the exposition of thePrincipia is dressed up bears no resemblance at all to the mental processes by which Newton actually arrived at his conclusions.
His experiments were always, I suspect, a means, not of discovery, but always of verifying what he knew already.
http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Extras/Keynes_Newton.html
So since we are unable to prove empirically that miracles that happened 2000 years ago, and based on our understanding of the limits of the human mind and abilities, the miracles that the Bible and other Christian stories speak off may be false or a misrepresentation of events?
Originally posted by Turbulent Times:So since we are unable to prove empirically that miracles that happened 2000 years ago, and based on our understanding of the limits of the human mind and abilities, the miracles that the Bible and other Christian stories speak off may be false or a misrepresentation of events?
Or may not have happened. Do you think that we are able to prove miracles empirically? What is your approach?
Atleast we can prove that all religions must have branched from one common source since they believe in and preach similar fundamental values - moral, peace, love and happiness. Lol
Originally posted by Turbulent Times:Or may not have happened. Do you think that we are able to prove miracles empirically? What is your approach?
Nope. I wouldn't brainstorm and research on empirical studies and evidence that a mere mortal was able to raise the dead and give back life or resurrect from his own death...............
Cause you know............it just sounds dumb to waste our earth's energy, time and resources to do that when we are yet to cure cancer with 100% success.
So yeah........nothing from me. If I was asked to do this, might as well ask me if the idea of being bitten by a spider and have webs shot out of my wrists is conceivable.
The Bible is fun to make a Marvel movie out of it though right?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
1. Since when did I ask you to prove that miracles in the Bible happened? I am only asking you to prove the claim that it is empirically possible to prove that miracles happened. And if so, provide the methodology. Until now you still FAIL to do so.
2. I see that humble Christians are those who agree with you. What a self-serving definition of humility!
3. How am I twisting anything? You said that miracles can be empirically proven. I asked you how. You cannot answer me and now you are blaming me for your failure? Please don't try to divert things here. You demand for empirical proof that miracles happened. I am asking you to first prove the claim that there are empirical methods for proving such things. Do you not know that the scientific method is the empirical method? Looks like you don't know anything at all! Tell me what other method is empirical besides the scientific method. You tell me and I sure provide you the proof you demand.
4. Yes, the one who makes the claim prove the claim. So since you make the claim that empirical methods can prove that miracles happened, I am asking you to prove that claim. Why can't you do that? Tell me you are denying that empirical methods can prove miracles and I will not push this point and embarass you further.
5. Isaac Newton used the scientific method to prove gravity. I have no quarrel with that at all. I will use the scientific method to prove a scientific claim. But now we are talking HISTORY, whether something happened before. So tell me again, what accepted empirical methodology do you have in mind that can be used to prove that miracles happened 2000 years ago? How come you still cannot give me a simple answer to a simple question?
6. For the record I say it again. You show me how miracles can be proven by empirical means and I will show you that the miracles happened. Until now you FAILED to rise up to the challenge. I am willing to shoulder the burden of proof. I am NOT asking you to prove the miracles in the Bible so don't be so defensive and scared. I am only asking you if you know of any empirical way to prove that miracles happened. If you don't know, then how are you going to assess anything?
BIC
1. I emphasize again. No one goes around asking for a methodology to prove his own claims. If he claimed something, then he must have a methodology to prove it. If I claim a fairy talked to me and turned my teapot into a pumpkin, do I ask you to give me a methodology to prove it? Answer me. You're ridiculous!
2. No. You didnt read again. How lazy! They believe miracles happen but with no evidence, only by faith. I dont believe in miracles. Yet we can resolve our differences nicely because they can come to terms that they cant prove it. We dont agree with each other but yet these christians know there isnt any evidence for miracles.
3. So you're also saying, miracles cant be proved empirically, which means there's no evidence! then why dont you just admit it instead of asking me to provide you with another methodology? And in any case, you should be the one finding another method to prove if you cant do it empirically, not me. It's always the claimant job, dear creationist.
4. Same as 3. If you cant prove it empirically, then find another method. And if you cant find another method, then admit theres no evidence instead of pushing the responsibility to the person who asked you to prove your claim. That is just irresponsible.
5. Again, if empirically, you cant prove the miracles or you cant reproduce them, then use another method. And if you dont have any method, then admit that right now, there is no evidence for miracles in the bible. Simples as ABC. You only look irresponsible and incoherent when you push the proving job to another person when you were the one who made the claim.
Originally posted by Turbulent Times:Documentary from BBC that unravels the myths and theories of Jesus life and death:
1. Jesus survived the cross
2. Jesus was a Hindu monk
3. Jesus burial site discovered
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YbUEZfJJaQ
What do you think? WHat do you believe?
No.2 Closer to the truth. His "40 years" (unspecified Hebrew time frame) wandering in the wilderness suggest that he may have travelled to the Bamiyam and Kashmir regions and studied Buddhism and esothericism.