Originally posted by Tcmc:So now, YOUR current culture supercedes what Jesus said????????
Only only in these verses i posted, your culture supercedes what Jesus said?
You are talking nonsense Tcmc. Which part of my post say anything about culture overriding what Jesus said?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:You are talking nonsense Tcmc. Which part of my post say anything about culture overriding what Jesus said?
Since you said "that they must be understood against the context of the early church whereby baptism is synonymous with salvation since that is the initiation rite into the Christian faith.", arent you trying to say that "baptism needed for salvation" only applied to the eearly church culture and not your culture?
I made a small assumption there. I could be wrong.
So if I am wrong, are you saying that those baptism for salvation verses still apply for your culture?
Originally posted by Tcmc:Since you said "that they must be understood against the context of the early church whereby baptism is synonymous with salvation since that is the initiation rite into the Christian faith.", arent you trying to say that "baptism needed for salvation" only applied to the eearly church culture and not your culture?
I made a small assumption there. I could be wrong.
So if I am wrong, are you saying that those baptism for salvation verses still apply for your culture?
Tcmc,
I was enlightening you on how those verses ought to be understood. That they do not prove that you need to be baptised in order to be saved. That a better way to understand these verses is that baptism is synonymous with salvation. Now you are harping on a different thing. If you ask me, I would say that if there is a salvation case before me today then baptism should be the next thing to do. If today you tell me you want to be a Christian, I would say "Good! Now let's set a date for water baptism." Get it? Mind you, I am not saying that if you are not baptised then you are not saved. But that if you are truly saved you would want to be baptised just as the Lord commanded, unless you tell me that you are now hanging on a cross and not convenient to be baptised, or that you are allergic to water.
BIC,
actually there are many fine lines in christianity where the differences are very marginal...so i dun blame nonchristians for crossing over these fine lines cos sometimes even we christians cross them...
but i do agree wif u tat baptism is nt a requirement for salvation...but a prerequisite of salvation...
sorry...typo, salvation is a pre-requisite of baptism...
Originally posted by despondent:BIC,
actually there are many fine lines in christianity where the differences are very marginal...so i dun blame nonchristians for crossing over these fine lines cos sometimes even we christians cross them...
but i do agree wif u tat baptism is nt a requirement for salvation...but a prerequisite of salvation...
Hi, hi
Here's wishing you a Merry Christmas and may the Lord shower his blessings on you.
I dun want to post or reply to BIC. his replies are rubbish, nonsense and out of order, incoherent and illogical. its an insult to people's intelligence. I suggest dun waste time replying him. better ask those paradoxical qns in the bible better
Originally posted by Jacky Woo:I dun want to post or reply to BIC. his replies are rubbish, nonsense and out of order, incoherent and illogical. its an insult to people's intelligence. I suggest dun waste time replying him. better ask those paradoxical qns in the bible better
Jacky Woo, you are projecting again.
tcmc,
u posted the below, nw i shall try to reply u...
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:37-8 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For Mark 16:15-16...it says ;;he tat believeth not shall be damned...it doesnt say he tat believeth not AND BAPTISED NOT shall be damned...''
John 3:5...the ''see the kingdom of God'' in this case is not referring to going to heaven...if u read the verse before it, the pharisee was asking jesus tat no man can do these miracles except God be with him. Then Jesus replied him with John 3:5...in other words, one had to be born again in order to do these miracles or know that these miracles are from God...Jesus was indirectly telling the pharisee tat the pharisee did not know God...
Acts 2:37-38...look at the sequence...''repent, and be baptised..., and receive the gift of the holy spirit...the verse suggests tat repentance is a pre-requisite of baptism followed by the gift of the spirit...if baptism was needed for salvaion, the verse would have said sth like repent BY BEING BAPTISED/BY GETTING BAPTISED...
I hope i have provided adequate explanation for the above verses and tat u are able to see why there are no contradictions...
Originally posted by despondent:tcmc,
u posted the below, nw i shall try to reply u...
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:37-8 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For Mark 16:15-16...it says ;;he tat believeth not shall be damned...it doesnt say he tat believeth not AND BAPTISED NOT shall be damned...''
John 3:5...the ''see the kingdom of God'' in this case is not referring to going to heaven...if u read the verse before it, the pharisee was asking jesus tat no man can do these miracles except God be with him. Then Jesus replied him with John 3:5...in other words, one had to be born again in order to do these miracles or know that these miracles are from God...Jesus was indirectly telling the pharisee tat the pharisee did not know God...
Acts 2:37-38...look at the sequence...''repent, and be baptised..., and receive the gift of the holy spirit...the verse suggests tat repentance is a pre-requisite of baptism followed by the gift of the spirit...if baptism was needed for salvaion, the verse would have said sth like repent BY BEING BAPTISED/BY GETTING BAPTISED...
I hope i have provided adequate explanation for the above verses and tat u are able to see why there are no contradictions...
Concerning John 3:5, I would add that the context was not teaching about baptism at all. Born of water refers to being born physically, and child birth involves the breaking of water bag. It makes more sense and fits the context this way too.
Anyway, I like to quote this T-shirt slogan again:
Born Once Die Twice. Born Twice Die Once.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
I was enlightening you on how those verses ought to be understood. That they do not prove that you need to be baptised in order to be saved. That a better way to understand these verses is that baptism is synonymous with salvation. Now you are harping on a different thing. If you ask me, I would say that if there is a salvation case before me today then baptism should be the next thing to do. If today you tell me you want to be a Christian, I would say "Good! Now let's set a date for water baptism." Get it? Mind you, I am not saying that if you are not baptised then you are not saved. But that if you are truly saved you would want to be baptised just as the Lord commanded, unless you tell me that you are now hanging on a cross and not convenient to be baptised, or that you are allergic to water.
BIC
No, the bible verses doesnt say all that you have mentioned!
They are very clear cut that baptism is needed for salvation! Why do you say "Mind you, I am not saying that if you are not baptised then you are not saved. "
Why are you trying to change the verse or explain away the verse?
Yes synonymous i agree, but still the verse clearly says that baptism IS NEEDED for salvation! Read the verses clearly!
How can you use your "baptism not needed" verses to explain the "baptism needed" verses? Why dont you use the "baptism needed" verses to explain the "baptism not needed" verses?
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:37-8 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Originally posted by despondent:tcmc,
u posted the below, nw i shall try to reply u...
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:37-8 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For Mark 16:15-16...it says ;;he tat believeth not shall be damned...it doesnt say he tat believeth not AND BAPTISED NOT shall be damned...''
John 3:5...the ''see the kingdom of God'' in this case is not referring to going to heaven...if u read the verse before it, the pharisee was asking jesus tat no man can do these miracles except God be with him. Then Jesus replied him with John 3:5...in other words, one had to be born again in order to do these miracles or know that these miracles are from God...Jesus was indirectly telling the pharisee tat the pharisee did not know God...
Acts 2:37-38...look at the sequence...''repent, and be baptised..., and receive the gift of the holy spirit...the verse suggests tat repentance is a pre-requisite of baptism followed by the gift of the spirit...if baptism was needed for salvaion, the verse would have said sth like repent BY BEING BAPTISED/BY GETTING BAPTISED...
I hope i have provided adequate explanation for the above verses and tat u are able to see why there are no contradictions...
despondent,
the way you explained away the verses are very funny. You are just finding excuses for yourself not to believe in those verses!
Some verses you like, you believe they are literal.
Some verses you dont like, you jus say "theres a deeper meaning".
Seriously, why do you pick and choose?Buffet ah?
No your answers are not adequate. Because those christians who believe that baptism is needed for salvation also do the same thing you do.
They explain AWAY those verses that say that "baptism is not needed". They do the same thing as you, but opposite.
So how am I supposed to know if you are speaking the truth or them?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Concerning John 3:5, I would add that the context was not teaching about baptism at all. Born of water refers to being born physically, and child birth involves the breaking of water bag. It makes more sense and fits the context this way too.
Anyway, I like to quote this T-shirt slogan again:
Born Once Die Twice. Born Twice Die Once.
Explaining the verse with your wisdom again. BIC. Why?
TO the other christians who have childlike faith, they just take the verse as it is!
Born of water = Baptism!
Seriously. You interpret it as not baptism, but other christians told me it is baptism
tcmc,
ppl provide u their interpretations and u accuse them of giving excuses...honestly, i expect u to be more dipplomatic abt tat...its cos we interpret it tat way tats why we dun believe baptism is needed for salvation...why not we do this? u stick to ur belief tat baptism is needed for salvation, we stick to ours...
one more thing, do u notice tat even though there r christians believing/nt believing baptism is needed for salvation, we dun fight abt it among ourselves? we leave each side to its own...we are able to agree to disagree...
also notice i am nt alone in my interpretations...there r christians who interpret same way as me...so it shows there is indeed another way to look at those verses which u are unable to accept...i was juz merely telling u how i see those verses...
Originally posted by despondent:tcmc,
ppl provide u their interpretations and u accuse them of giving excuses...honestly, i expect u to be more dipplomatic abt tat...its cos we interpret it tat way tats why we dun believe baptism is needed for salvation...why not we do this? u stick to ur belief tat baptism is needed for salvation, we stick to ours...
1. No I am not a christian. BUT IF i need to CHOOSE who to believe because it will affect my salvation?
If I believe you and i dont get baptised before I die, i will still go heaven.
BUT if the other christians are right about baptism needed for salvation, i will end up in eternal damnation.
I am jus concerned to make a right decision.
2. No. You christians dont really fight abvout it. But its for me a nonchristian to decide! It concerns salvation....!
3. So you are saying if "many ppl believe something, that something must be true"?
Originally posted by Tcmc:1. No I am not a christian. BUT i need to CHOOSE who to believe because it will affect my salvation?
If I believe you and i dont get baptised before I die, i will still go heaven.
BUT if the other christians are right about baptism needed for salvation, i will end up in eternal damnation.
I am jus concerned to make a right decision.
2. No. You christians dont really fight abvout it. But its for me a nonchristian to decide! It concerns salvation....!
3. So you are saying if "many ppl believe something, that something must be true"?
er... non christians believe in salvation 1 meh?
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
er... non christians believe in salvation 1 meh?
I am saying "IF".
If I want to be saved by the christian God, which one should I believe?
Because
Christian A tells me baptism is needed to go heaven
Christian B tells me baptism is not needed to go heaven
SO IF
iw ant to be saved by the christian God, who should I believe?
You got any advice?
Hey Tcmc, when u were a christian, u didn't baptize meh ?
if u wanted to be saved by the christian god u would already have your own set of christianity believe dun u? meaning u wld already have taken either 1 side ma..
From my christian frens' point of view, they think that baptism is definitely necessary...a simple process based upon faith...going to heaven or not, they said that's God's decision, not us...
at destiny,
haha...true...
tcmc,
if u believe in OSAS, then whether u are baptised or not dun really matter cos in OSAS, those who are part of the elect will 100% be saved somewhere in their lives and once they are saved, their salvation cun be lost...so dun worry...
Originally posted by despondent:at destiny,
haha...true...
despondent
You didnt answer me?
Who to believe?
I am not talking about OSAS. I am talking about BAPTISM specifically. Can you answer? So baptism for salvation or not?
1. No I am not a christian. BUT IF i need to CHOOSE who to believe because it will affect my salvation?
If I believe you and i dont get baptised before I die, i will still go heaven.
BUT if the other christians are right about baptism needed for salvation, i will end up in eternal damnation.
I am jus concerned to make a right decision.