Originally posted by BroInChrist:
What's the matter? Can't live with the fact that our calendar is dated with reference to Jesu Christ? Even the days of the week are named after Roman deities and we all are living with that.
wow I am amazed you can ignore my other question lol, as usual. you seem to unable or unwilling to acknowledge not all in this world is a xtian, so this calender system is catered towards xtians, not non christians.
anyway I am not asking u. who decides the calendar system? its about time we change. the current calendar year can be used by xtians, but its time the world change to a system thats suits everyone.
Originally posted by Jacky Woo:wow I am amazed you can ignore my other question lol, as usual. you seem to unable or unwilling to acknowledge not all in this world is a xtian, so this calender system is catered towards xtians, not non christians.
anyway I am not asking u. who decides the calendar system? its about time we change. the current calendar year can be used by xtians, but its time the world change to a system thats suits everyone.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Good works are not the pre-condition for salvation, they are the fruits of salvation.
But then your conduct here is not very "good" or admirable. SO that means you might not be saved?
Originally posted by Tcmc:But then your conduct here is not very "good" or admirable. SO that means you might not be saved?
Tcmc,
Trying to change the subject eh? Lame sia. My conduct is deemed not good because I demolished your arguments ya? My conduct will be good if I sayang all your anti-Christian arguments and don't make a blip about them, ya?
When Jesus was on earth, His conduct was also judged as evil by others. They called Him as one who has the devil. Jesus chased the people out of the temple using a whip. Was that good or admirable in your view? Yet no one can accused Jesus of sin when He challenged them.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
Trying to change the subject eh? Lame sia. My conduct is deemed not good because I demolished your arguments ya? My conduct will be good if I sayang all your anti-Christian arguments and don't make a blip about them, ya?
When Jesus was on earth, His conduct was also judged as evil by others. They called Him as one who has the devil. Jesus chased the people out of the temple using a whip. Was that good or admirable in your view? Yet no one can accused Jesus of sin when He challenged them.
Wow comparing yourself to Jesus, a supposedly perfect man. Nice righteousness there.
No i say your conduct is bad not because you demolished anything but because you keep bearing false witness against me and twist your arguments to suit your beliefs.
Originally posted by Tcmc:Wow comparing yourself to Jesus, a supposedly perfect man. Nice righteousness there.
No i say your conduct is bad not because you demolished anything but because you keep bearing false witness against me and twist your arguments to suit your beliefs.
Tcmc,
Didn't you know, that we should all seek to emulate Christ? Paul said, imitate me just as I imitate Christ. But of course you DIDN'T know that.
Nah, I think you just go for personal attack when your arguments have been demolished. You were probably thinking you were on a winning streak when few bothered to respond to your elephant hurling tactics. But I suppose the tables turned on you when I began to take you on.
to demon bane,
regarding the different view abt the afterlife, the reasons why there are 4 diff perspectives according to wad tcmc listed down is cos there are 4 different perspectives regarding end time tribulation...they are pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation and partial tribulation...
to tcmc,
regarding salvation by grace alone or works and grace...it depends on whether the christian believe in predestination or freewill...but the bottomline is all christians agree salvation is by grace in other words tat r/s wif God is needed...
Originally posted by despondent:to demon bane,
regarding the different view abt the afterlife, the reasons why there are 4 diff perspectives according to wad tcmc listed down is cos there are 4 different perspectives regarding end time tribulation...they are pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation and partial tribulation...
to tcmc,
regarding salvation by grace alone or works and grace...it depends on whether the christian believe in predestination or freewill...but the bottomline is all christians agree salvation is by grace in other words tat r/s wif God is needed...
would you mind to explain a little more about each tribulation?
i am no guru on this cos i have nvr been to bible school so wadever knowledge i have is based on wad i understand from the christians i noe from different denominations and some pastors as well...
basically, all christians believe there will be a 7-year period of tribulation that earth will witness but of cuz no man noes the hour it will start...the differences begins in the issue of the rapture of the believers, when it will happen...
1) pre-tribulation teaches that christians are spared from the tribulation...they will rapture before tribulation begins...christians who hold this belief usually believe in predestination(once saved, always saved)...
2) mid-tribulation teaches that christians have to go thru tribulation but only for 3.5 out of the 7 years...i dun really noe where the biblical references are but thats wad i understand from this teaching...
3) post-tribulation teaches that christians have to go thru the full 7 years of tribulation...this is to test their faith if they can hold out thru the tribulation...christians holding this belief usually believe tat salvation is by freewill and tat it can be lost...hence the tribulation is one of the tests of their faith to see if its wavering...
4) partial tribulation is slightly different from the rest as it teaches tat there are 2 raptures instead of 1...the 1st rapture happens before tribulation and some christians(chosen by God) will be raptured...then after the 7 years of tribulation, a 2nd batch of christians will be raptured after getting their faith tested...
i hope i have given a reasonable enuff reply...:)
Originally posted by despondent:i am no guru on this cos i have nvr been to bible school so wadever knowledge i have is based on wad i understand from the christians i noe from different denominations and some pastors as well...
basically, all christians believe there will be a 7-year period of tribulation that earth will witness but of cuz no man noes the hour it will start...the differences begins in the issue of the rapture of the believers, when it will happen...
1) pre-tribulation teaches that christians are spared from the tribulation...they will rapture before tribulation begins...christians who hold this belief usually believe in predestination(once saved, always saved)...
2) mid-tribulation teaches that christians have to go thru tribulation but only for 3.5 out of the 7 years...i dun really noe where the biblical references are but thats wad i understand from this teaching...
3) post-tribulation teaches that christians have to go thru the full 7 years of tribulation...this is to test their faith if they can hold out thru the tribulation...christians holding this belief usually believe tat salvation is by freewill and tat it can be lost...hence the tribulation is one of the tests of their faith to see if its wavering...
4) partial tribulation is slightly different from the rest as it teaches tat there are 2 raptures instead of 1...the 1st rapture happens before tribulation and some christians(chosen by God) will be raptured...then after the 7 years of tribulation, a 2nd batch of christians will be raptured after getting their faith tested...
i hope i have given a reasonable enuff reply...:)
Just to add on, the last view is promoted by Van Kampen but it never really became popularly accepted. So it really boils down to the three main views.
Originally posted by Tcmc:Demon Bane
Actually there are different christian perspectives on this, according to the many christians I have met.
1. Some christians believe that the spirits go directly to heaven or hell after death
2. Some christians believe that the spirits "wait somewhere" until the last day. On the last day, jesus judges the spirits and then they will go to their respective places.
3. Some christians believe that the spirits are "asleep" until the last day. On the last day, jesus judges the spirits and then they will go to their respective places.
4. Some christians also believe that the spirits will wait somewhere and on the last day, these spirits will be given a SECOND CHANCE to hear the "gospel" to get into heaven
These are the 4 different interpretations from christians I know :))))
Tcmc,
do you believe in after life? and where will you go?
Originally posted by sgdiehard:Tcmc,
do you believe in after life? and where will you go?
Nope I dont believe in an afterlife whether its the christian afterlife, muslim afterlife or reincarnation or hindu afterlife.
:) Simply because
1. No one has been there
2. No one has seen these places physically
3. No one knows where these places are
It's like saying there's this magical rainbow land beyond our universe, but if there's no evidence, why should you believe me?
hey BIC, are u a believer of once saved always saved? u can PM me if u are uncomfortable sharing here...
Originally posted by despondent:hey BIC, are u a believer of once saved always saved? u can PM me if u are uncomfortable sharing here...
despondent
Ya you are correct.
2 kinds of christians regarding this - one kind believes once saved always saved, the other no.
Originally posted by despondent:hey BIC, are u a believer of once saved always saved? u can PM me if u are uncomfortable sharing here...
Based on my current understanding of the Scriptures, I would have to say that I am not persuaded to the OSAS view.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Based on my current understanding of the Scriptures, I would have to say that I am not persuaded to the OSAS view.
BIC, based on your understanding of scriptures about OSAS, you think the OSAS camp is wrong? Or you are not very sure?
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC, based on your understanding of scriptures about OSAS, you think the OSAS camp is wrong? Or you are not very sure?
Tcmc,
Put it this way, I am of the view that the weight of the Biblical evidence does not lend to the OSAS view. This is unlike the young earth view where the Scriptures is dead clear and exegetically it is watertight.
to tcmc,
regarding issues like this we cun say for sure which camp is rite or wrong...its one of those doctrines i was telling u abt tat are gd to noe but wun affect the salvation of the believer...
to BIC,
i dun subscribe to OSAS too although i understand where they are coming from...most of them believe in pre-tribulation...
to tcmc,
regarding issues like this we cun say for sure which camp is rite or wrong...its one of those doctrines i was telling u abt tat are gd to noe but wun affect the salvation of the believer...
to BIC,
i dun subscribe to OSAS too although i understand where they are coming from...most of them believe in pre-tribulation...
Despondent, Do you perceive there is a link between OSAS and pre-trib view? I happen to think that the pre-trib view is well supported. But as you said, none of these are salvation issues.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Tcmc,
Put it this way, I am of the view that the weight of the Biblical evidence does not lend to the OSAS view. This is unlike the young earth view where the Scriptures is dead clear and exegetically it is watertight.
BIC,
And the other camp will say the same thing to you too. :I am of the view that the weight of the Biblical evidence does lend to the OSAS view."
Seems like the bible can be easily interpreted in many ways.
Originally posted by despondent:to tcmc,
regarding issues like this we cun say for sure which camp is rite or wrong...its one of those doctrines i was telling u abt tat are gd to noe but wun affect the salvation of the believer...
to BIC,
i dun subscribe to OSAS too although i understand where they are coming from...most of them believe in pre-tribulation...
But isnt it very dangerous not to "know for sure"?
For example on the issue of baptism required for salvation.
Wouldnt christians who believe that baptism ISN'T needed for salvation be at risk of going to hell? Because they might not get baptised "before they die" and hence end up in hell?
Why is the bible so unclear that there are diff interpretations regarding the issue of baptism required for salvation.?
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC,
And the other camp will say the same thing to you too. :I am of the view that the weight of the Biblical evidence does lend to the OSAS view."
Seems like the bible can be easily interpreted in many ways.
Yes, the Bible indeed can be easily interpreted in many ways. You have amply demonstrated it yourself with the callous way you handle Scripture, using prooftexts instead of building up a case with sound exegesis. Interpretation of the Bible come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. But no Christian worth his salt believe in the absurd notion that all interpretations are equally valid and true regardless of how they are contrary or contradictory to each other.
Yes, Christians CAN disagree on passages of the Scripture and what they mean. You probably have never heard of the Counterpoint series of books where Bible scholars debate on the different views. But as I said, none of these authors subscribe to the notion that just because there are differing interpretations, therefore there cannot be a right interpretation and we must throw up our hands in despair and adopt a "what's true for you is not true for me" self-refuting relativism approach. There is always room for honest dissent over matters that does not affect the salvation of a believer. You are merely trying to hype things out and blow things out of proportion, trying to poison the well that because Christians do disagree therefore the whole Christian world is in disarray and we must reject the faith. But you conveniently ignore the fact that Christians are united over the core essentials of the faith, the non-negotiables that are clearly taught in the Scripture, while allowing for differences in view over non-essential issues.
Originally posted by Tcmc:But isnt it very dangerous not to "know for sure"?
For example on the issue of baptism required for salvation.
Wouldnt christians who believe that baptism ISN'T needed for salvation be at risk of going to hell? Because they might not get baptised "before they die" and hence end up in hell?
Why is the bible so unclear that there are diff interpretations regarding the issue of baptism required for salvation.?
Again you expose the shallowness of your own so-called Bible study. If baptism was required for salvation, then explain how the thief on the cross could have been promised Paradise by Jesus that very day? One exception is enough to refute the argument that baptism must be required for salvation.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Yes, the Bible indeed can be easily interpreted in many ways. You have amply demonstrated it yourself with the callous way you handle Scripture, using prooftexts instead of building up a case with sound exegesis. Interpretation of the Bible come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. But no Christian worth his salt believe in the absurd notion that all interpretations are equally valid and true regardless of how they are contrary or contradictory to each other.
Yes, Christians CAN disagree on passages of the Scripture and what they mean. You probably have never heard of the Counterpoint series of books where Bible scholars debate on the different views. But as I said, none of these authors subscribe to the notion that just because there are differing interpretations, therefore there cannot be a right interpretation and we must throw up our hands in despair and adopt a "what's true for you is not true for me" self-refuting relativism approach. There is always room for honest dissent over matters that does not affect the salvation of a believer. You are merely trying to hype things out and blow things out of proportion, trying to poison the well that because Christians do disagree therefore the whole Christian world is in disarray and we must reject the faith. But you conveniently ignore the fact that Christians are united over the core essentials of the faith, the non-negotiables that are clearly taught in the Scripture, while allowing for differences in view over non-essential issues.
BIC
1. You agreed it can be interpeted in many ways easily, whether callously or not. Is it because the bible is too generic? Or is it because on one chapter it says salvation is by grace and in another chapter it says baptism is needed for salvation?
2. Why you always talk until so serious? "Throw the whole christianity is disarray"?? No. I am just confused regarding christians interpeting the verses differently, even in the core essentials of the faith.
a) Like even in issues of whether jesus was god and nature of heaven and hell, there are differences. SOme christians tell me that heaven and hell are not literal places and I do not have to worry while some christians tell me they are literal places.
b) Some christians tell me there will be a2ND CHANCE when I die where jesus will preach the gospel in hades again but soem christians tell me there is no 2nd chance.
So who should I believe? I also want to "be safe and saved"
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Again you expose the shallowness of your own so-called Bible study. If baptism was required for salvation, then explain how the thief on the cross could have been promised Paradise by Jesus that very day? One exception is enough to refute the argument that baptism must be required for salvation.
BIC, please respond to below?
And how do you explain these verses, some commanded by Jesus Himself :( ?
Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:37-8 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Thats my question lor.
How come some christians quote some verses to me to say baptism is not necessary for salvation, then some christians quote me other verses to say its necessary?
I am confused. Thats all.
Please enlighten me, BIC.