Christian Arguments for God’s Existence - Refutations
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. Can you highlight to me which thinga about Christianity and God that you are not 100% about? Cos it seems that all throughout our convo, you were always right? I need to know which issues about Christianity and God you arenot 100% sure about? Thanks.
2. Yes if you give me a different method from what the other camps of christians, I will believe you. Because up to now, you keep telling me your interpretation about "certain" issues is correct by praying, reading scripture and articles. But thats what other christians do too, to COUNTER YOUR interpretations.
3. " It is much better and to be preferred that people read the Bible for themselves and diligently study it, debate over it, and mature in their understanding of the Bible over time than to check their brains at the door and blindly accept that someone has the right interpretation and just accept it as it is."
yea and another christian who counters your interpetation will also say to you " It is much better and to be preferred that people read the Bible for themselves and diligently study it, debate over it, and mature in their understanding of the Bible over time than to check their brains at the door and blindly accept that someone has the right interpretation and just accept it as it is."
Tcmc,
1. If you have the perception that I am always right, perhaps you should reflect on whether it is your views that are always wrong. I don't claim to be infallible. I was wrong to believe in an old earth many years ago. It is clumsy for me to list down to you one by one what I am sure about and what I am tentative about. And what purpose does it serve anyway? So that you can go down the list and I have to defend every one of them? Like that I very boh eng right, always being on the defense?
2. Again you FAILED to provide a post where I said an interpretation can be proved correct by prayer. An interpretation must be argued for, demonstrating a rigorous process of exegesis. There is no shortcut. Even if I read articles, that article is based on someone else's hardwork.
3. You are looking for shortcuts. Don't be lazy. Like I said, if I tell you I have the correct interpretation, will you buy it? No. Why? Because you also want to use your own brain to evaluate what I say. At the end of the day, each believer has to make up his own mind and follow where the best arguments go with a clear conscience. Again I can think of no better way, and neither can you. But you would rather take the easy way out and say "All wrong lah! The correct view is that all is wrong lah!" But this still begs the question, how you know you are right in your view that all is wrong? Or you also don't know? And if you don't know, then why find fault?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. If you have the perception that I am always right, perhaps you should reflect on whether it is your views that are always wrong. I don't claim to be infallible. I was wrong to believe in an old earth many years ago. It is clumsy for me to list down to you one by one what I am sure about and what I am tentative about. And what purpose does it serve anyway? So that you can go down the list and I have to defend every one of them? Like that I very boh eng right, always being on the defense?
2. Again you FAILED to provide a post where I said an interpretation can be proved correct by prayer. An interpretation must be argued for, demonstrating a rigorous process of exegesis. There is no shortcut. Even if I read articles, that article is based on someone else's hardwork.
3. You are looking for shortcuts. Don't be lazy. Like I said, if I tell you I have the correct interpretation, will you buy it? No. Why? Because you also want to use your own brain to evaluate what I say. At the end of the day, each believer has to make up his own mind and follow where the best arguments go with a clear conscience. Again I can think of no better way, and neither can you. But you would rather take the easy way out and say "All wrong lah! The correct view is that all is wrong lah!" But this still begs the question, how you know you are right in your view that all is wrong? Or you also don't know? And if you don't know, then why find fault?
1. No. Maybe list 1 or 2 issues that you have doubts about NOW. That you are not 100% sure. I am just curious. I wont go criticise your doubts.!
2. Yea similarly, the other camp of christians who counter all your beliefs also do the same thing.
3. I am just saying you christians have diferent interpretations, thats all! :)
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. No. Maybe list 1 or 2 issues that you have doubts about NOW. That you are not 100% sure. I am just curious. I wont go criticise your doubts.!
2. Yea similarly, the other camp of christians who counter all your beliefs also do the same thing.
3. I am just saying you christians have diferent interpretations, thats all! :)
Tcmc,
1. I am not 100% sure of a pre-tribulation rapture, though my current conviction is of this persuasion.
2. Yes, so this is why we just need to evaluate for ourselves who has the better argument. Why did I switch to the young earth view? Because I am convinced of its exegesis.
3. Am I denying that Christians interpret differently? I am only saying that there is a correct interpretation and that it can be discovered.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. I am not 100% sure of a pre-tribulation rapture, though my current conviction is of this persuasion.
2. Yes, so this is why we just need to evaluate for ourselves who has the better argument. Why did I switch to the young earth view? Because I am convinced of its exegesis.
3. Am I denying that Christians interpret differently? I am only saying that there is a correct interpretation and that it can be discovered.
1. How about tongues and whether it is from the Holy Spirit?
2. Yea, "evaluate for ourselves". Exactly. All christians interpret the verses "for themselves".
3. Lol...very very very subjective!
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. How about tongues and whether it is from the Holy Spirit?
2. Yea, "evaluate for ourselves". Exactly. All christians interpret the verses "for themselves".
3. Lol...very very very subjective!
Tcmc,
1. Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
2. Of course all Christians interpret the Bible for themselves. When you read anything you interpret what you read primarily for yourself isn't it? Duh!
3. You are just trying to be funny lah. I said there is objective meaning you say it is subjective. So you telling me that there is NO correct interpretation of anything? Or only this problem apply to Bible only? Does it also apply to reading newspapers, articles, and any other written things?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
2. Of course all Christians interpret the Bible for themselves. When you read anything you interpret what you read primarily for yourself isn't it? Duh!
3. You are just trying to be funny lah. I said there is objective meaning you say it is subjective. So you telling me that there is NO correct interpretation of anything? Or only this problem apply to Bible only? Does it also apply to reading newspapers, articles, and any other written things?
BIC
1. How about those that charismatic churches do? The "ra-ta-ta" kind. ?
2. What I meant was - every christian interprets for himself..well, yea thats the way it is!
3. Nope. Only for christians' interpretation because an allknowing Entity is supposedly in the picture. So only one camp can be right with regards to doctrinal issues.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
1. How about those that charismatic churches do? The "ra-ta-ta" kind. ?
2. What I meant was - every christian interprets for himself..well, yea thats the way it is!
3. Nope. Only for christians' interpretation because an allknowing Entity is supposedly in the picture. So only one camp can be right with regards to doctrinal issues.
Tcmc,
1. I knew you were going to bash on that. Again you just want to see Christians shoot their own ya?
2. Yes, every Christian interpret the Scripture for himself, just like how you would interpret anything you read for yourself. I've got no problems with this whatsoever. That's the way things are. At tertiary level we learn about communication and how the decoder can wrongly decode what the encoder ecode. Apparently you missed that lesson.
3. Wrong again. God or not, ANY statement usually have only one meaning, and it is the one intended by the author. If I say "Tcmc is an ignorant bloke" then it means just that. Of course another person can say "Oh that means Tcmc is a beautiful girl" and insist that he is right. But is he really right? Nope. How about if another person say that it means Tcmc is a dog and insist he is right? Is he also really right? Can we therefore say that there is no way to know what I meant by that statement? The answer is NO.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. I knew you were going to bash on that. Again you just want to see Christians shoot their own ya?
2. Yes, every Christian interpret the Scripture for himself, just like how you would interpret anything you read for yourself. I've got no problems with this whatsoever. That's the way things are. At tertiary level we learn about communication and how the decoder can wrongly decode what the encoder ecode. Apparently you missed that lesson.
3. Wrong again. God or not, ANY statement usually have only one meaning, and it is the one intended by the author. If I say "Tcmc is an ignorant bloke" then it means just that. Of course another person can say "Oh that means Tcmc is a beautiful girl" and insist that he is right. But is he really right? Nope. How about if another person say that it means Tcmc is a dog and insist he is right? Is he also really right? Can we therefore say that there is no way to know what I meant by that statement? The answer is NO.
BIC,
1. No. Cos I was from a tongue speaking church and they told me its from the Holy Spirit, the gibberish kind. So I wonder if all christians believe that ? Please advise. Thanks.
2. Interpreting for ourselves is no problem. but it becomes amusing when a group of people claims theres an constant, unchanging god who talks to them but all of them in the group come up with different interpretations, apparently guided by the same god.
3. LOL. Yes and the other christian in the other camp will show you what the author intended and you in this camp will show him what the author intended. Seriously, you guys interpret very differently!
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC,
1. No. Cos I was from a tongue speaking church and they told me its from the Holy Spirit, the gibberish kind. So I wonder if all christians believe that ? Please advise. Thanks.
2. Interpreting for ourselves is no problem. but it becomes amusing when a group of people claims theres an constant, unchanging god who talks to them but all of them in the group come up with different interpretations, apparently guided by the same god.
3. LOL. Yes and the other christian in the other camp will show you what the author intended and you in this camp will show him what the author intended. Seriously, you guys interpret very differently!
Tcmc,
1. I already answered you, tongues are a gift from the Holy Spirit. The issue with charismatic churches today stems from the practice of it. Read 1 Cor 12-14 and you will see how tongues should be exercised. But then again, you will have an interpretation issue ya? LOL!
2. Strawman argument again. No Christian I know says that God is telling them audibly or through a trance or vision concerning what a passage means. There is no short cut to be an approved student of the Word of God.
3. Yes, we do interpret differently, that's why there is always room for healthy debate, but not demonising those who disagree with us over matters that are peripheral and not essential. Of course people like you who lack maturity cannot handle debate over differing Bible interpretation.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. I already answered you, tongues are a gift from the Holy Spirit. The issue with charismatic churches today stems from the practice of it. Read 1 Cor 12-14 and you will see how tongues should be exercised. But then again, you will have an interpretation issue ya? LOL!
2. Strawman argument again. No Christian I know says that God is telling them audibly or through a trance or vision concerning what a passage means. There is no short cut to be an approved student of the Word of God.
3. Yes, we do interpret differently, that's why there is always room for healthy debate, but not demonising those who disagree with us over matters that are peripheral and not essential. Of course people like you who lack maturity cannot handle debate over differing Bible interpretation.
BIC
1. So are you saying the modern day charismatic churches are not doing the "real tongues"? 1 Cor 12? Read IN CONTEXT FRIEND! Paul was only speaking to the church then!!! What happen to your in context???? Or you choose again???? Buffet ah?
2. Ya many trained pastors and "approved students of the word of god" would disagree wiith you too about 1 Cor 12!
3. Yea I agree you shouldnt demonise or say the other camp is wrong just because your interpretation is different! For e.g Mormons interpret jesus to be not God. So you should not say they are wrong! Just live and let live!
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
1. So are you saying the modern day charismatic churches are not doing the "real tongues"? 1 Cor 12? Read IN CONTEXT FRIEND! Paul was only speaking to the church then!!! What happen to your in context???? Or you choose again???? Buffet ah?
2. Ya many trained pastors and "approved students of the word of god" would disagree wiith you too about 1 Cor 12!
3. Yea I agree you shouldnt demonise or say the other camp is wrong just because your interpretation is different! For e.g Mormons interpret jesus to be not God. So you should not say they are wrong! Just live and let live!
Tcmc,
1. Putting words in my mouth again? Again I see no need to respond to troll questions.
2. Yes, many would disagree. But no reason to agree with you that therefore no one is right or can be right.
3. It's one thing to interpret a text differently, it's another to DENY what the text clearly says. Mormons do not just have problems with Christ deity, they have a host of doctrines that put themselves clearly outside of Christian orthodoxy. But then again, how much do you know about Mormonism? My guess? Nuts. Sorry I am not being gentleman. It should be, zip zero nada.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. Putting words in my mouth again? Again I see no need to respond to troll questions.
2. Yes, many would disagree. But no reason to agree with you that therefore no one is right or can be right.
3. It's one thing to interpret a text differently, it's another to DENY what the text clearly says. Mormons do not just have problems with Christ deity, they have a host of doctrines that put themselves clearly outside of Christian orthodoxy. But then again, how much do you know about Mormonism? My guess? Nuts. Sorry I am not being gentleman. It should be, zip zero nada.
BIC
1. No. But clearly you are against modern day tongues, right? Or what? Clarify?
2. Oh no, you just said dont demonise other christians, now you are doing it, or BORDERING on demonising Mormon christians...
Hypocrite.
PLEASE RESPECT MORMON CHRISTIANS. They recently released a news article in straits times educating people that they are christians too!
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If different religions are like different fields of studies....eg. economics, maths, chem, physics, history, literature etc...then proving the laws within each field of study will of coz produce verifiable results....even so, we simply cannot say that maths is better than chemistry.... or applying a physics law with literature....just my tots....
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
1. No. But clearly you are against modern day tongues, right? Or what? Clarify?
2. Oh no, you just said dont demonise other christians, now you are doing it, or BORDERING on demonising Mormon christians...
Hypocrite.
PLEASE RESPECT MORMON CHRISTIANS. They recently released a news article in straits times educating people that they are christians too!
Tcmc,
1. For the record, I am NOT against speaking in tongues. Why should I set myself against the Holy Spirit? All I am telling you is that 1 Cor 12-14 tells us how tongues should be exercised and I am of the view that churches in general or charismatic churches in particular do not abide by that.
2. And here you are demonising me for refusing to acknowledge Mormons as Christians, when you have little clue as to what Mormons believe? Who is more hypocritical? Anyone claiming to be a Christian means he is? Jesus says that in the last days people will claim to be Christ, so you just believe also out of respect?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
If different religions are like different fields of studies....eg. economics, maths, chem, physics, history, literature etc...then proving the laws within each field of study will of coz produce verifiable results....even so, we simply cannot say that maths is better than chemistry.... or applying a physics law with literature....just my tots....
On a high level note, different religions at least recognise some things in common.
1. There is a supernatural realm with supernatural beings.
2. There is sin. Humans are morally screwed up.
3. There is a need to make atonement for sin. Someone needs to be appeased.
4. There is judgement for sin.
5. There is a heaven to go and a hell to avoid.
6. People seek salvation. Salvation is provided.
Now the above are merely the broad themes I can think of that are common to all religions. One question is, how come all have the same themes? Let's set aside the differing details for the moment.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. For the record, I am NOT against speaking in tongues. Why should I set myself against the Holy Spirit? All I am telling you is that 1 Cor 12-14 tells us how tongues should be exercised and I am of the view that churches in general or charismatic churches in particular do not abide by that.
2. And here you are demonising me for refusing to acknowledge Mormons as Christians, when you have little clue as to what Mormons believe? Who is more hypocritical? Anyone claiming to be a Christian means he is? Jesus says that in the last days people will claim to be Christ, so you just believe also out of respect?
BIC
1. Hmm clearly you have failed to look at the charasmatic christian's perspective! You always fail in looking at other's perspectives. According to the charasmatic, their tongues is Holy Spirit inspired! And that 1 Cor 12 is to be applicable for the Corinth church only! So according to them, you are actually setting up yourself against the HS.
I mean, according to them. What do you say? Cos this is what my charasmatic friend told me.
2. SOrry I know about Mormons maybe more than you and that is why I do not demonise them or border on demonising them.
People only demonise others when they are ignorant!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
On a high level note, different religions at least recognise some things in common.
1. There is a supernatural realm with supernatural beings.
2. There is sin. Humans are morally screwed up.
3. There is a need to make atonement for sin. Someone needs to be appeased.
4. There is judgement for sin.
5. There is a heaven to go and a hell to avoid.
6. People seek salvation. Salvation is provided.
Now the above are merely the broad themes I can think of that are common to all religions. One question is, how come all have the same themes? Let's set aside the differing details for the moment.
The different fields of study tries to define what is LIFE....or many aspects of LIFE....by not assigning names like "sin" and "salvation"...I will agree with you on most of these points....
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
On a high level note, different religions at least recognise some things in common.
1. There is a supernatural realm with supernatural beings.
2. There is sin. Humans are morally screwed up.
3. There is a need to make atonement for sin. Someone needs to be appeased.
4. There is judgement for sin.
5. There is a heaven to go and a hell to avoid.
6. People seek salvation. Salvation is provided.
Now the above are merely the broad themes I can think of that are common to all religions. One question is, how come all have the same themes? Let's set aside the differing details for the moment.
All points I can agree except for 5 and 6.
Clearly shows your lack of understanding of other religions.
5. In Judaism and many sects of Buddhism, there are no heavens and hells.
6. Salvation is very subjective. It is not always in terms of heaven or hell.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
1. Hmm clearly you have failed to look at the charasmatic christian's perspective! You always fail in looking at other's perspectives. According to the charasmatic, their tongues is Holy Spirit inspired! And that 1 Cor 12 is to be applicable for the Corinth church only! So according to them, you are actually setting up yourself against the HS.
I mean, according to them. What do you say? Cos this is what my charasmatic friend told me.
2. SOrry I know about Mormons maybe more than you and that is why I do not demonise them or border on demonising them.
People only demonise others when they are ignorant!
Tcmc,
1. You failed to look at my perspective. Anyway you are clearly trolling here. Now you are arguing that nothing in the Bible is applicable today because it was all written in the first century. But why should you, an apostate who has no proper foundation in Bible study, be the judge of what the Scripture says? You show me one reputed Bible teacher who agree with you. Just one. I am not interested in your imaginary Christian friend. More likely you are just invoking people so that you can say it's not you say one. The usual hiding behind somebody tactic.
2. Now I now why you demonise me. LOL! Anyway, the Mormons have been classed as cults because their doctrines DEVIATE from orthodox creeds. Not only that, the claims of Mormonism's founders have been tested and found wanting. I suppose you did not know that.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
All points I can agree except for 5 and 6.
Clearly shows your lack of understanding of other religions.
5. In Judaism and many sects of Buddhism, there are no heavens and hells.
6. Salvation is very subjective. It is not always in terms of heaven or hell.
Which part of broad themes and setting aside detailed differences do you not understand?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. You failed to look at my perspective. Anyway you are clearly trolling here. Now you are arguing that nothing in the Bible is applicable today because it was all written in the first century. But why should you, an apostate who has no proper foundation in Bible study, be the judge of what the Scripture says? You show me one reputed Bible teacher who agree with you. Just one. I am not interested in your imaginary Christian friend. More likely you are just invoking people so that you can say it's not you say one. The usual hiding behind somebody tactic.
2. Now I now why you demonise me. LOL! Anyway, the Mormons have been classed as cults because their doctrines DEVIATE from orthodox creeds. Not only that, the claims of Mormonism's founders have been tested and found wanting. I suppose you did not know that.
1. My charasmatic friend is real. He was the one who told me that. :) Because i was from a tongue speaking church and my pastor told me that christians who say modern day tongues are fake are against HS. My EXpastor told me that.
2. You are bordering on Sedition Act. In Singapore, Mormonism is a legalised christian denomination.
Please refrain from demonising other religions.
Let me remind you the christian couple who demonised ISlam and Catholicism - they were jailed and fined.
I am just saying some Mormon might come round and see your comments and get offended.
And i never demonised your religion.
My stand throughout this discussion has always been to look at all christian denominations and religions and try to understand them better, instead of sticking to one perspective!
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. My charasmatic friend is real. He was the one who told me that. :) Because i was from a tongue speaking church and my pastor told me that christians who say modern day tongues are fake are against HS. My EXpastor told me that.
2. You are bordering on Sedition Act. In Singapore, Mormonism is a legalised christian denomination.
Please refrain from demonising other religions.
Let me remind you the christian couple who demonised ISlam and Catholicism - they were jailed and fined.
I am just saying some Mormon might come round and see your comments and get offended
Tcmc,
1. But I am NOT against speaking in tongues. I made that clear. Which part you did not understand?
2. Prostitution is legalised too. So am I being seditious to say that it is immoral? Think before you talk about the law. If something is legal then it only means the law of the country does not forbid it. It is just the legal status of the religion, not a truth declaration.
3. Let me remind you that the law is not so frivolously invoked like the way you do it. The founder of the Mormon church said that all denominations are corrupt (bet you didn't know that), are you offended on my behalf?
4. As for your stand, it is clear to me and some others that you are merely trying to engage in Bible bashing on the PRETENSE that you are seeking to understand.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. But I am NOT against speaking in tongues. I made that clear. Which part you did not understand?
2. Prostitution is legalised too. So am I being seditious to say that it is immoral? Think before you talk about the law. If something is legal then it only means the law of the country does not forbid it. It is just the legal status of the religion, not a truth declaration.
3. Let me remind you that the law is not so frivolously invoked like the way you do it. The founder of the Mormon church said that all denominations are corrupt (bet you didn't know that), are you offended on my behalf?
1. Yea you are not against tongues but you are against charasmatic form of tongues is it?
2. In fact, you are already breaking the law. But just that its very unlikely any mormon will come by and report you.
Anyway, I really admire mormons for their grace. You know why?
I have personally asked a mormon leader before about other christians insulting their religion and why they wont call the police.
He said that mormons are gracious and tolerant. :)
Pls learn from them and refrain from insulting
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1. Yea you are not against tongues but you are against charasmatic form of tongues is it?
2. In fact, you are already breaking the law. But just that its very unlikely any mormon will come by and report you.
Anyway, I really admire mormons for their grace. You know why?
I have personally asked a mormon leader before about other christians insulting their religion and why they wont call the police.
He said that mormons are gracious and tolerant. :)
Pls learn from them and refrain from insulting
Tcmc,
1. Wah can vomit blood! Which part of "not practising the use of tongues as taught in 1 Cor 12-14" do you not understand? How do the charismatic church you went to go about exercising their tongues. Everyone speak at the same time and hardly anyone interpret ya? Now tell me how did Paul teach it should be like in a church meeting.
2. Please lah, don't try to frivously invoke the law and indict people. As a Christian I am also tolerant of Mormons whose founder says that all Christian denominations are corrupt. Are Mormons then guilty of breaking the law already? Of course you won't dare to say because you have zero knowledge of Mormonism. You do of course, have many "friends" who tell you this and tell you that. Machiam everything also got someone tell you one!
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
1. Wah can vomit blood! Which part of "not practising the use of tongues as taught in 1 Cor 12-14" do you not understand? How do the charismatic church you went to go about exercising their tongues. Everyone speak at the same time and hardly anyone interpret ya? Now tell me how did Paul teach it should be like in a church meeting.
2. Please lah, don't try to frivously invoke the law and indict people. As a Christian I am also tolerant of Mormons whose founder says that all Christian denominations are corrupt. Are Mormons then guilty of breaking the law already? Of course you won't dare to say because you have zero knowledge of Mormonism. You do of course, have many "friends" who tell you this and tell you that. Machiam everything also got someone tell you one!
"have many "friends" who tell you this and tell you that. Machiam everything also got someone tell you one!"
I realized that a while ago...hahaha....I think he writes in front of a mirror.