Christian Arguments for God’s Existence - Refutations
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Yea I agree.
But everytime we ask a question about the bible (might be offending, but still many are sincere questions), you guys think we are bashing or that we are trolling. Then how can there be true engagement?
Only when you have given us answers OR say that you don't know, then at that point, we can agree to disagree.
But sometimes you guys dont even wanna give answers and just divert attention by saying that we are trolling or bashing
You have to realise that there are different denominations in Christianity itself. The answers we give will be different. Our understanding may be different. That is why this forum was to discuss the differences and share. There will be trolls and non-trolls. The key is to know WHICH are the trolls and WHICH are not.
If we can give u your answer... then the world would have had all the answers to everything.
We learn we experience. Life is all about learning. You can say u learn with your books with knowledge, there are Christians who learn by trying to attain the spirituality of it.
Look at the history of Eternal Hope. You cannot pin all the blame saying that people caling whoever trolls. There are trolls. Christian and non-christian alike. That is fact. And refusal to accept there are non-Christian trolls is like saying all of you guys are right. Which I have proved again and again that no. Ther are non-christian trolls. And I have shown you who the trolls are. It is up to you to decide the who is who.
In case u didnt get my memo. Let me cut n paste it for you.
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Anyways here is just a brief timeline when there are moderators in Eternal Hope.
<![endif]-->
You guys know Facebok Timeline?
Well let me give u a glimpse of yourself. One thing about sgforums is.. the history remains forever… at least on the net.
2003
laurence82 17-Jab 2004
In my secondary, I had a gal friend who is a passionate christian, and she did once made me sit down in the canteen, and reading with her on The Daily Bread. Well, after that I told her I am not prepared to accept Christ in my life, but she was understanding, and we still remain friends.
In my JC, I had a gal friend who is passionate about Christianity, for her Jesus is everything, but we still get along, altho her passion scares other Christians away. So left me one guy only talk with her.
For me, aiyah, passionate or not, it doesnt matter, as long as they not overbearing, like keep pestering or even saying wrong things during an emergency like the above, just make sure dont be so overbearing and in the end piss people off. But at same time, everyone here should try to communicate with everyone...its challenging to communicate with someone so different, so passionate...try it!This is you laurence82, during your earlier years.
http://sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/66998?page=2
Laurence82 31 Jan 2004
As you can see. Laurence82 is still reasonable then. Because he is new. His posts are during a time of moderators. And he is not directly attacking Christianity. Just enlightening us on perhaps the misconception of it.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/68182
This thread sheds some light into the position of Laurence82. Still civil. Albeit it was in an Aunt Agony thread. WITH a moderator monitoring of course.
http://sgforums.com/forums/12/topics/84761
Notice that in these conversation in Eternal Hope, its still civil. Moderator SillyMe was still there during that time.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/86625
This one is interesting. Laurence82 actually advocates for statute based religious harmony.
“I am not sure how much of jurisdiction can the goverment have over internet content, especially with regards to using the religious harmony act.
Since its mabbe quite limited, some people use this chance to profess their hypocritical views on other religions here, which they couldnt do outside since they could be immediately be held under citizen arrest by people who are listening.
But it will be helpful to post some legal statutes here so that we can see how much of that act has been flouted here.
cheers”This is July 2004. Don’t believe me ? Read the content of the thread.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/85413
DaVinCi Code. Nothing major. Just showing that he was not the troll that he is now.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/87298
Catholics. Nothing major.. still within the 2004 period
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/87298
Laurence82 31 of August 2004
“btw, if anyone say i am pursuing an agenda here, yes i am, but not against Christians, but its about religious sensitivity...
, so i hope i wont be
called anti christ or something...
The last time i discuss this seriously when someone also raise abt the same topic last time...not abt ancestors, but generally on non believers too...
but i am glad we guys discuss this in a nice non flaming manner..”-This is where we can see his motive and ‘agenda’ reveal itself. This is the beginning of his crusade. Notice how offensive posts are edited by then moderator SillyMe . Notice how discussion still being civil.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/91468
Nice and civil. The likeable Laurence82 by everyone.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/98364
They may call out the Lord's name everytime, but they aint bad.
Besides, my friends from those churches turn out all right, and quite mature too.
You should see instead the behaviour of some Christians from traditional churches in this forum. Absolutely disgusting.”Still reasonable. Mentioning of trolls like Aloska is natural. U will always have one or two of them people like those around.
http://sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/100234
This thread is on Christians dating non Christians. The discussion inside is very civil. No personal attacks. No demeaning remarks. No supportive comments by trolls on trolls. All is nice and dandy.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/102335
Reconciliation between Chrstianity and science.
Notice how the discussions are STILL civil. With your usual StupidIsSmart explaining away why it isn’t so. But interestly, Laurence82 actually partaked in a meaningful discussion. Good times to read. I remember reading them.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/103641
I admit, its going to take some time to form a timeline. Given that your posts are 111,665 at 12/12 06.22am. And that is 248 times more than Hasene’s. Which means 2233 hours. But that can be shortened if I skip every 2 pages. Time can be shortened of course by giving it out to employees that have too much free time and don’t mind a little bit of bonus.
But it does bring back some good memories. The good old times when we at least saw eye to eye. But that will all change in 2008. Leading up to 2009.
Dec 2004
“· Firstly, what it got to do with the Buddhist? Oh i forgot, its our honeybunzie again...
Secondly, u realli sure teachers dont force u to attend Mass or Chapel service in Xtians schools? Think again....i come from one such JC which does that.
To add, last time I used to give some deference to christianity and the believers..
Now i dont even bother when I see a statue of jesus..
muahahhahaha”---As you can see. Laurence82 has already deep hatred and a personal vendetta against Christians in particular. You can see that he starts to reveal his true nature. Someone how is intolerant, who is anti- religion, anti-christianity and we do whatever it takes to bad mouth or talk down a Christian be the Christian a good or bad one. He cannot be an objective person. Have a read. His discussion back then was still civil and makes sense. You can feel he wants to attack.. but was being reigned in. Chin Eng was then the Moderator too if I am not mistaken.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/108051
11 Feb 2005
“I am afraid u guys have to read up on Amway, who officially pave the way and started the MLM business in US in 1950s. It is plausible they use christian evangelism as a model to start MLM.
But i beg to differ that CHC or in fact any evangelistic or charismatic churches are MLM in structure and form. There are few very technical differences i must say, one being churches deal with spirituality while mlm deals with business strategies.
Although there are seemingly few similarities between them, i dont its right to label churches directly as having mlm structure. i will use it only in discussion regarding churches that seemingly want to con people out of their money. Even so, it is not right to label CHC as having mlm structure, the point being pointed out in earlier post.
'direct selling' or single level marketing or SLM' would be the best parallel in business world to compare with CHC.”--Now this is about City Harvest Church being an MLM. Notice how he was making sense. Acknolwedging the spiritual aspect and it’s difference. But If I were to fast forward to 2010. Which I will eventually point out, he claims Christianity IS MLM. Notice the inconsistencies ? Given that it is NOT in Eternal Hope, it is in a Multi Level Marketing forum, nevertheless shows his state of mind during the earlier years. Don’t believe me ? Link Below
http://sgforums.com/forums/14/topics/117114
2005 was a period of relative calmness. Eternal Hope modded. Posts and threads are still civil and controlled.
11 May 2005
“ever wonder why trolls and clones congregate at few places onli?
depends on how the mod run the place...
impartiality?
what a joke....
”“u dont see other forums going down, and their trolls only like once in a while will have
nowadays, u cant go into bar or chit chat w/o being suaned by mod or +1 by others, even if you have a well intentioned topic
do sumthing wrong, dont need to make yourself sound so exasperated as if whole world onli know how to blame you
no need to say things to suit yourself, one day say must be impartial and the other day say bo pian...
”---This is an extremely interesting thread. Here he seems to lament about the impartiality of the mod. And as usual.. starts a flame war.. AGAIN.. Let me highlight to you all that THIS.. is his style of flame and argument. You can clearly see how it has evolved intelligently and more aggressively over the year.
“his thread is just to raise awareness, since she will heck care ,i mean who else here can kick her out becos of her behaviour?
Its good some people raise points to support or against, but i would also like to point out that this thread is not just to debate responsibilities of mod, but also in light of recent events, really uncalled behaviour of mod, and the way the forums are going now. the Bear made a good point in his thread not too long ago, and one wonders why it doesnt happen to other SI forums as iveco as pointed out....
on one hand she expouse impartiality and on the other hand, enjoys watching two groups flaming each other for the fun of it...
pls dont cry helplessness and so on, when things doesnt prove u right....”----Looks like Laurence82 , you just have to eat back your own words now. Trying to deny.. trying to be willfully ignorant does not help your case as you can see here.
http://sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/131547
14 May 2005
----In this thread, its about Catholics and Protestants evangelizing. And u noticed that there was no condescending remarks, no personal attacks and full of civility and good discussion. And if you compare to the EXACT same thread in 2009,2010 and 2011… it becomes a massive troll flame war.
Even Laurence82 contributed to meaningful discussions.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/132093
27 May 2005
“this is not eternal hope man
this is eternal flaming forum....”-----My question then.. what was he doing in Eternal Hope then, and why does he STILL come into Eternal Hope now. Eventhough he is not a Christian and CANNOT contribute to anything to the Christian myth. Homosexuality seems to be the topic too.
-----Notice how it WAS a Christian Forum then, but you always got these people coming to challenge their faith. It’s not just a recent phenomenon.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/134029?page=1
13 June 2005
“Basically, i have very specific reservations, not about god, but about chhristianity, esp when someone call himself the prophet of god, and link himself to god thru this 'holy trinity'.
I have very specific reservations abt the Protestants, who used to justify their breakaway, among other stuff, including the reasons of Pope's excessess..
Now if you look, its more like Protestants' excessess, whereas the Pope, or the last Pope, try to reach a interfaith peace and harmony
I have very specific reservations against preachings by hypocrites who only make statements out of the Bible. Remember the time when your old-school dad demand total respect, obedience and attention, without any question about the way he do stuff, even of you know its wrong and ilogical?
Yup...”----Ladies and gentlemen, as you can clearly see. He has made his agenda intention clear. He is out against Christians. Especially Protestants. Since 2005.
My question to you Laurence82, why are you still in Eternal Hope ? His answers can be found in the next thread:
“Again, i dont condone this sort of actions, so dont expect me to shove off easily. Besides, the discussion in this forum provided much needed laughter and entertainment.
If you think you are quite justified, go and challenge stupidissmart. Only few were able to match his level of reasoning, rather than just being silly and discuss other faiths as if you know so much abt them.”----Let me assure you. You can see how he supports trolls, supports those that are in his line of thinking and not looking at things objectively. That was 6 years ago. And while StupidIsSmart has improved in his vocabulary and knowledge, while his reasonings are logical, they both exhibit the same character of not trying to understand the other person’s position and that you are always WRONG and they are RIGHT. Now in 2011, he still has the exact same mentality. But while StupidIsSmart has improved, Laurence82 clearly has not.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/136368
16 may 2005
As you can clearly see. The topic was Old Testament. Now its supposed to be a discussion between Christians . But then u got StupidIsSmart and Laurence82 coming in giving their piece of their mind. Its odd as they DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE… but yet they kept coming in to challenge the veracity of the bible.
----Seriously.. wha’ts up with that ? Is that a Chronic Troll or what ? Who the hell persistently goes into another’s house and tells them how to run and decorate their furniture ? Read for yourselves.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/132412
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/136620
14 July 2005
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
I echo your sentiments, laoda.....
I guess by and large, most of the Christians here are familiar with those who are either philosophically against Christianity or are against the individuals who are Christians. While most of the more "seasoned" EH contributors are avoiding a protracted, thus pointless, discussion with the anti-Christians, we will be more than happy to discuss and when possible nudge seekers the way we see to be right. After all, as laoda, and myself (in the past) had maintained, this is a CHRISTIAN forum. No different from those who reside in Light of Atlantis or the Buddhist threat who may advice their seekers to go those ways, and as I have said before, it would be totally wrong to preach there. This is EH, you either come in to share, to seek or to argue. I'd ignore those who wants nothing more than to pick a fight.
To anyone who does not believe in God (or the Christian God), the prayers would not offend 'cos to these people God does not exist, thus the prayers will NOT work.
To believers, it is well within our agenda to try to nudge non-believers to our faith.
While, as most forumites may know, that I am totally against the forcing-down-your-throat brand of Christianity, I will be more than happy to provide some comfort and answers, and if such answers will lead an individual to Christ I will unabashly do it.
If I am addressing the needs of a specific individual and this individual feels that these needs are met, I would not consider the opinions of those who are not involved. They are totally unimportant.---Have a read. Here we have the mod Chin Eng. Obviously knows Laurence82 and his antiques. And when someone posts IN a Christian forum discussing about Christian belief and system, Laurence cannot take it. And this is his reply. Let me show that this was in 2005.
“Seriously chin eng, u starting to disappoint me.
but its allright, fundamentally, its never a christian way to be humble, to have non believers in their heart etc, despite many speeches that say so
its always 'our' way, 'our beliefs, that to acknowledge the presence and views of others...
*shrug*--- Notice how he has a very personal vendetta against Christians. I mean, its not like somebody posted in a Non-Christian forum asking for Non-Christian advice. See for yourselves.
This REALLY sheds light into the REAL Laurence82.
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Originally posted by BadzMaro:
You have to realise that there are different denominations in Christianity itself. The answers we give will be different. Our understanding may be different. That is why this forum was to discuss the differences and share. There will be trolls and non-trolls. The key is to know WHICH are the trolls and WHICH are not.
If we can give u your answer... then the world would have had all the answers to everything.
We learn we experience. Life is all about learning. You can say u learn with your books with knowledge, there are Christians who learn by trying to attain the spirituality of it.
Look at the history of Eternal Hope. You cannot pin all the blame saying that people caling whoever trolls. There are trolls. Christian and non-christian alike. That is fact. And refusal to accept there are non-Christian trolls is like saying all of you guys are right. Which I have proved again and again that no. Ther are non-christian trolls. And I have shown you who the trolls are. It is up to you to decide the who is who.
In case u didnt get my memo. Let me cut n paste it for you.
BM
1. Regarding different denominations in christianity, what confuses me is you guys are supposed to believe in one God. And this one God apparently speaks to all of you, no matter the denomination. But then this one God seems to be telling you all different things regarding tongues, healings, OSAS doctrine, method of baptism, person of jesus, nature of heaven and hell, interpretation of verses, version of bible to use etc. Why does he seem like he's telling everyone different things?
Sure you might say that it is human's diff interpretation. But then EVERY single christian i met tells me that it is God who tells them that OSAS is biblical/unbiblical...
So how to know who's right and who's wrong? You say go back to the bible. But every christians who tells me that OSAS is biblical/unbiblical pointsme to the bible too.
2. Of course there are nonchristian trolls like there are christian trolls. But what I am saying is, try to answer our difficult questions without thinking that we are bashing.
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BIC?
ANY advice for this?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BM
1. Regarding different denominations in christianity, what confuses me is you guys are supposed to believe in one God. And this one God apparently speaks to all of you, no matter the denomination. But then this one God seems to be telling you all different things regarding tongues, healings, OSAS doctrine, method of baptism, person of jesus, nature of heaven and hell, interpretation of verses, version of bible to use etc. Why does he seem like he's telling everyone different things?
Sure you might say that it is human's diff interpretation. But then EVERY single christian i met tells me that it is God who tells them that OSAS is biblical/unbiblical...
So how to know who's right and who's wrong? You say go back to the bible. But every christians who tells me that OSAS is biblical/unbiblical pointsme to the bible too.
2. Of course there are nonchristian trolls like there are christian trolls. But what I am saying is, try to answer our difficult questions without thinking that we are bashing.
Tcmc,
You are obviously bashing here. You said there are differing views. But then you go from "how we know who's right who's wrong" to "Christianity is just plain wrong". By what logic you jump from being ignorant to being certain that Christianity is just plain wrong and thus must be abandoned?
In the courts of law there are always differing views upon the finer points of law (that's how lawyers make money ya?), enough to make people like us confused and wondering who's right and who's wrong. Do you then reject the entire law or judicial process because of your confusion?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
You are obviously bashing here. You said there are differing views. But then you go from "how we know who's right who's wrong" to "Christianity is just plain wrong". By what logic you jump from being ignorant to being certain that Christianity is just plain wrong and thus must be abandoned?
In the courts of law there are always differing views upon the finer points of law (that's how lawyers make money ya?), enough to make people like us confused and wondering who's right and who's wrong. Do you then reject the entire law or judicial process because of your confusion?
Excuse me, dont resort to name calling. I also never say because of differing views I left christianity.
Anyway, I really wanna know. How do YOU as a christian know which denomination/interpretation is correct?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Excuse me, dont resort to name calling. I also never say because of differing views I left christianity.
Anyway, I really wanna know. How do YOU as a christian know which denomination/interpretation is correct?
Certainly not by your kind of "Oh so many different views so ALL wrong lah! Just reject lah!" approach.
Please go and read up first on Biblical exegesis or hermeneutics, then you come and debate on this. You need a book recommendation? See Thomas Howe's "Objectivity in Bible Interpretation".
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Certainly not by your kind of "Oh so many different views so ALL wrong lah! Just reject lah!" approach.
Please go and read up first on Biblical exegesis or hermeneutics, then you come and debate on this. You need a book recommendation? See Thomas Howe's "Objectivity in Bible Interpretation".
So you are not gonna respond to the bible verses I posted regarding baptism necessary for salvation and jesus giving us a second chance after death?
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
So you are not gonna respond to the bible verses I posted regarding baptism necessary for salvation and jesus giving us a second chance after death?
I already did. Go read up.
Correction, I meant I already answered you previously. You did not respond to them. You just throw up more verses as though you ignored what I wrote.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I already did. Go read up.
Correction, I meant I already answered you previously. You did not respond to them. You just throw up more verses as though you ignored what I wrote.
BIC
With regards to DIFFERENT christians giving me DIFFERENT interpretations regarding ssalvation and baptism etc., you still have not given me a credible answer.
You keep telling me that one has to study the bible, interpret the bible correctly and also read other christian articles to support the interpretation.
Take for example the issue of baptism for salvation -
Camp A prayed, studied the bible, interpreted the bible and also read christian articles and concluded that baptism is NEEDED for salvation.
Camp B prayed, studied the bible, interpreted the bible and also read christian articles and concluded that baptism ISN'T NEEDED for salvation.
So in essence you have not answered anything! You have to give me a CLEARER way or method of knowing who's interpretation is correct.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
BIC
With regards to DIFFERENT christians giving me DIFFERENT interpretations regarding ssalvation and baptism etc., you still have not given me a credible answer.
You keep telling me that one has to study the bible, interpret the bible correctly and also read other christian articles to support the interpretation.
Take for example the issue of baptism for salvation -
Camp A prayed, studied the bible, interpreted the bible and also read christian articles and concluded that baptism is NEEDED for salvation.
Camp B prayed, studied the bible, interpreted the bible and also read christian articles and concluded that baptism ISN'T NEEDED for salvation.
So in essence you have not answered anything! You have to give me a CLEARER way or method of knowing who's interpretation is correct.
So because you think there is no clear way out, you choose to take the easy way out and declare Christianity as wrong and to be rejected? This speaks more about you than the faith I believe in.
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If we already proven that 1 + 1 = 2 and based upon all calculations in mathematics, is it a bias point of view? If christians already assumed that God exist before the Bible was compiled, was that bias too ? I dunno, at some point of time, we just have to accept the mathematician's assumption ....same for christianity I guessed...
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
If we already proven that 1 + 1 = 2 and based upon all calculations in mathematics, is it a bias point of view? If christians already assumed that God exist before the Bible was compiled, was that bias too ? I dunno, at some point of time, we just have to accept the mathematician's assumption ....same for christianity I guessed...
1+1 = 2 isn't an assumption......
But yes you are correct to say that certain assumptions have to be made with regards to christianity at some point of time.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1+1 = 2 isn't an assumption......
But yes you are correct to say that certain assumptions have to be made with regards to christianity at some point of time.
Tcmc,
In your worldview can you account for why 1+1=2? Why does this truth hold universally against the backdrop of your belief that the universe is one big accident? Why are there laws of nature and why is there order in the universe? If you say "don't know" then just admit that your worldview is unable to account for these simple things.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
In your worldview can you account for why 1+1=2? Why does this truth hold universally against the backdrop of your belief that the universe is one big accident? Why are there laws of nature and why is there order in the universe? If you say "don't know" then just admit that your worldview is unable to account for these simple things.
Yah hor...who created the laws of physics? Eg. Gravity and Energy ? Nature? God ? What? Who ?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Tcmc,
In your worldview can you account for why 1+1=2? Why does this truth hold universally against the backdrop of your belief that the universe is one big accident? Why are there laws of nature and why is there order in the universe? If you say "don't know" then just admit that your worldview is unable to account for these simple things.
1+1= 2 because if you add one item and another item together, it naturally jumps to the next quantity.
Here on earth, we call it "2". Maybe on other planets they call it a different thing.
But i believe universally, when you put an orange together with another orange in a basket, the quantity changes to a different quantity........
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Yah hor...who created the laws of physics? Eg. Gravity and Energy ? Nature? God ? What? Who ?
For christians, it is the Christian God
For buddhists, I am not sure
For hindus it is Lord Brahma
For sikhs, it is the Lord Sikh God
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
For christians, it is the Christian God
For buddhists, I am not sure
For hindus it is Lord Brahma
For sikhs, it is the Lord Sikh God
You have a good point there....for buddhism, there is no One Power creator....the universe is a continuation of an older universe....no beginning and no ending....
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
1+1= 2 because if you add one item and another item together, it naturally jumps to the next quantity.
Here on earth, we call it "2". Maybe on other planets they call it a different thing.
But i believe universally, when you put an orange together with another orange in a basket, the quantity changes to a different quantity........
I know 1+1=2, but I am asking you WHY it is the way it is. Why do mathematical axioms work the way they do? You say it is natural thing to do. It's just saying that's the way it is without explaining why. Why is it consistently that 1+1=2 everywhere in the universe? Even on earth you can say satu + satu = dua, we call it differently but the truth is that 1+1=2. Question for you is, why is there such a universal order? Why do you believe that 1+1 always will be 2? You believe that the universe is a random accident, that is is chance random processes. Explain the order that we discover please according to your worldview.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
For christians, it is the Christian God
For buddhists, I am not sure
For hindus it is Lord Brahma
For sikhs, it is the Lord Sikh God
Again don't hide behind other religions. What about YOU?
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Yah hor...who created the laws of physics? Eg. Gravity and Energy ? Nature? God ? What? Who ?
We can just easily sum up all these details and see it as a whole. In short we are asking who created the universe. And here's the thing, the cause of the universe cannot logically be part of the universe. It must be external to it. Agree?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
We can just easily sum up all these details and see it as a whole. In short we are asking who created the universe. And here's the thing, the cause of the universe cannot logically be part of the universe. It must be external to it. Agree?
Can it be that every major religious beliefs are correct ? As for buddhism, there is no "beginning" and thus no "ending"....so if you ask me questions about "in the beginning" , I dunno leh....for my belief is that there is no real "beginning"....life is eternal in buddhism, only the forms becomes different....life is continuous....a cycle of birth, old age, sickness and death....the universe also have its "life cycle"....then a new universe shall be formed when the old one fades away...
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
Can it be that every major religious beliefs are correct ? As for buddhism, there is no "beginning" and thus no "ending"....so if you ask me questions about "in the beginning" , I dunno leh....for my belief is that there is no real "beginning"....life is eternal in buddhism, only the forms becomes different....life is continuous....a cycle of birth, old age, sickness and death....
I hold to the correspondence theory of truth. If something is true, then it must correspond to reality. It must account for the facts. It must explain the facts coherently. Many religions and people in the past and some still today hold to the BELIEF that the universe is eternal, that it has always been. Note though that the Biblical worldview has all along held to a finite universe, a universe that has a beginning and that will have an end. And this has now only been confirmed by modern science in the last century. It is now a fact that the universe is finite. How we account for its existence is another matter though. So if you ask me, I would say that it is no longer tenable to believe that the universe is eternal. That would be rather anti-scientific, don't you think? And if I am not wrong, Buddhists are of the view that Buddhism is very scientific.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
I hold to the correspondence theory of truth. If something is true, then it must correspond to reality. It must account for the facts. It must explain the facts coherently. Many religions and people in the past and some still today hold to the BELIEF that the universe is eternal, that it has always been. Note though that the Biblical worldview has all along held to a finite universe, a universe that has a beginning and that will have an end. And this has now only been confirmed by modern science in the last century. It is now a fact that the universe is finite. How we account for its existence is another matter though. So if you ask me, I would say that it is no longer tenable to believe that the universe is eternal. That would be rather anti-scientific, don't you think? And if I am not wrong, Buddhists are of the view that Buddhism is very scientific.
I'm sure there are scientists that have a finite view of the universe....but also many scientists also believe that the universe is infinite....when I talk about the term "eternal" I'm refering to the old one fades while a new one forms...not the same universe but a totally new one....Buddhism have too many schools of thoughts / practice / beliefs....I won't generalize all schools....
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Originally posted by Demon Bane:
I'm sure there are scientists that have a finite view of the universe....but also many scientists also believe that the universe is infinite....when I talk about the term "eternal" I'm refering to the old one fades while a new one forms...not the same universe but a totally new one....Buddhism have too many schools of thoughts / practice / beliefs....I won't generalize all schools....
Demon Bane,
Indeed there are many scientists who choose to believe in an infinite or eternal universe, despite what the scientific community has established as an incontrovertible fact, that the universe has a beginning. Again, whether scientists or religious folks, to hold to such a belief would be doing so despite what the established facts are. I would say, at the very least, that the fact of a finite universe supports or confirms what the Bible has said all along for thousands of years, that space time matter had a beginning. I think it is significant that the very first verse of the Bible is scientifically sound.