Originally posted by BroInChrist:How am I being aggressive? At most I admit that I am tenacious in my arguments which makes the atheist feels cornered and unable to counter-argue. At that point the atheist will then lash out with all the ad hominem attacks.
What do you mean by me not being open to discussion? Does being "open" means that I have to accept the atheist's arguments as true? Of course as a Christian I am obligated to respond (or shoot down, if you like) the various objections that atheists hurl against Christianity. I have to show the reasonableness of the Christian answer while exposing the unreasonableness of the atheist's objections.
I do not think the atheist feels cornered. I cant say for the others but i myself finds it pointless to discuss anything with regards to god with you because you lack acceptance of other opinions. Your arrogance is what i feel a major turn off.
Being open means you understand and accept the presence of other ideas and mentality that are different from yours. Not everybody needs to know and find out how the world and universe had to begin and you deem those ppl as dishonest being who are dishonest with themselves.To me thats total arrogance. To me thats total judging of ppl who do not meet your yardstick as someone who is more inferior as compared to yours. Much as you have distaste for atheist, the way you bring them down gives me a feeling of disrespect to them. Unreasonableness of the atheist's objections, the way you put across things, i view it as though you are unreasonable too. Many ppl raised questions and when they raise the questions, you always place yourself in the higher ground than them.
Based on your interaction with TCMC and other forummers here, you are here more than defending your own faith but rather to put others down and to raise your ego. There are ppl here merely pointing out irregularities and you are asking ppl not to bring you down to their level. Aint that arrogance?
Essentially you can choose not to even bother to read what i've typed here but i have got nothing against you and as much as i do not believe entirely in the religion, i do not believe in a super being "upstairs". Nothing against you nor your faith/religion. Just did not like the way you "discuss"
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:I do not think the atheist feels cornered. I cant say for the others but i myself finds it pointless to discuss anything with regards to god with you because you lack acceptance of other opinions. Your arrogance is what i feel a major turn off.
Being open means you understand and accept the presence of other ideas and mentality that are different from yours. Not everybody needs to know and find out how the world and universe had to begin and you deem those ppl as dishonest being who are dishonest with themselves.To me thats total arrogance. To me thats total judging of ppl who do not meet your yardstick as someone who is more inferior as compared to yours. Much as you have distaste for atheist, the way you bring them down gives me a feeling of disrespect to them. Unreasonableness of the atheist's objections, the way you put across things, i view it as though you are unreasonable too. Many ppl raised questions and when they raise the questions, you always place yourself in the higher ground than them.
Based on your interaction with TCMC and other forummers here, you are here more than defending your own faith but rather to put others down and to raise your ego. There are ppl here merely pointing out irregularities and you are asking ppl not to bring you down to their level. Aint that arrogance?
Essentially you can choose not to even bother to read what i've typed here but i have got nothing against you and as much as i do not believe entirely in the religion, i do not believe in a super being "upstairs". Nothing against you nor your faith/religion. Just did not like the way you "discuss"
Agreed!
Not everyone needs to know the origin of the universe of if there are spirits out there.
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:I do not think the atheist feels cornered. I cant say for the others but i myself finds it pointless to discuss anything with regards to god with you because you lack acceptance of other opinions. Your arrogance is what i feel a major turn off.
Being open means you understand and accept the presence of other ideas and mentality that are different from yours. Not everybody needs to know and find out how the world and universe had to begin and you deem those ppl as dishonest being who are dishonest with themselves.To me thats total arrogance. To me thats total judging of ppl who do not meet your yardstick as someone who is more inferior as compared to yours. Much as you have distaste for atheist, the way you bring them down gives me a feeling of disrespect to them. Unreasonableness of the atheist's objections, the way you put across things, i view it as though you are unreasonable too. Many ppl raised questions and when they raise the questions, you always place yourself in the higher ground than them.
Based on your interaction with TCMC and other forummers here, you are here more than defending your own faith but rather to put others down and to raise your ego. There are ppl here merely pointing out irregularities and you are asking ppl not to bring you down to their level. Aint that arrogance?
Essentially you can choose not to even bother to read what i've typed here but i have got nothing against you and as much as i do not believe entirely in the religion, i do not believe in a super being "upstairs". Nothing against you nor your faith/religion. Just did not like the way you "discuss"
Firstly, let me just say upfront that your dislike of the way I discuss does not render my arguments wrong or invalid.
Secondly, your entire post is ad hominem in nature, accusing me of arrogance more than pointing out the flaws in my arguments. Please note that even if truth is spoken with kindness impaired, it is still the truth.
Thirdly, you have failed to make the distinction between accepting a person and accepting his views. I respect your right to be an atheist and fully accept that you are an atheist. But that is not the same as accepting your reasons for being an atheist as true or valid. In fact, I am not ashamed to say that I understand atheism more than most atheists here. And it is because I am knowledgeable about atheism that I can critique it well, compared to most atheists who criticise Christianity but are largely ignorant of Christianity. Of course you would consider this arrogance as well, but I think I have pretty much showed how atheists like Jacky do not know what atheism really implies.
I do not just anyhow call people dishonest, but I have showed how intellectually dishonest most atheists are here, in their use of double-standards and failure to be consistent with their own beliefs. Jacky even denied he has any beliefs!
I do not have a distaste for atheists, it's nothing personal. But I do find their arguments lacking in substance and logical rigour which is ironic since atheists usually consider themselves more rational than the deluded religious folks. You say I am unreasonable but you did not explain in detail how my arguments are unreasonable. For those who raised questions I have answered them. If I have answered them well or refuted them, how is that considered putting myself higher than them? Credit should be given where it is due, esp when objections have been answered.
People like Tcmc are not merely pointing out irregularities, as if they are oh-so-innocent seekers. I can assure you that Tcmc certainly do not belong to this category. She completely refuses to accept the fact that reasonable answers have been given to her questions. And I should defend myself whenever I perceive that it is unfair to make certain remarks. I am certainly not an extremist like Tcmc was. You mean I should just agree with her? If defending myself against an unfair charge is considered egoistic, so be it then.
As you can see, I have bothered to read what you post. I understand your views but I do not agree with them. Again if you think that my defending myself against your accusation of arrogance is arrogance itself and being egoistic, then so be it. Then it should also be applied to anyone who tries to defend himself or who thinks he is right. Make no mistake, the atheist thinks that he is right and that all religions are wrong. Is he arrogant? What do you think?
Originally posted by Tcmc:Agreed!
Not everyone needs to know the origin of the universe of if there are spirits out there.
Correction. It should be that not everyone WANTS to know the answers.
But everyone NEEDS to know because it matters. Because if there really is a God to whom we are accountable to, then it makes a world of difference!
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Firstly, let me just say upfront that your dislike of the way I discuss does not render my arguments wrong or invalid.
Secondly, your entire post is ad hominem in nature, accusing me of arrogance more than pointing out the flaws in my arguments. Please note that even if truth is spoken with kindness impaired, it is still the truth.
Thirdly, you have failed to make the distinction between accepting a person and accepting his views. I respect your right to be an atheist and fully accept that you are an atheist. But that is not the same as accepting your reasons for being an atheist as true or valid. In fact, I am not ashamed to say that I understand atheism more than most atheists here. And it is because I am knowledgeable about atheism that I can critique it well, compared to most atheists who criticise Christianity but are largely ignorant of Christianity. Of course you would consider this arrogance as well, but I think I have pretty much showed how atheists like Jacky do not know what atheism really implies.
I do not just anyhow call people dishonest, but I have showed how intellectually dishonest most atheists are here, in their use of double-standards and failure to be consistent with their own beliefs. Jacky even denied he has any beliefs!
I do not have a distaste for atheists, it's nothing personal. But I do find their arguments lacking in substance and logical rigour which is ironic since atheists usually consider themselves more rational than the deluded religious folks. You say I am unreasonable but you did not explain in detail how my arguments are unreasonable. For those who raised questions I have answered them. If I have answered them well or refuted them, how is that considered putting myself higher than them? Credit should be given where it is due, esp when objections have been answered.
People like Tcmc are not merely pointing out irregularities, as if they are oh-so-innocent seekers. I can assure you that Tcmc certainly do not belong to this category. She completely refuses to accept the fact that reasonable answers have been given to her questions. And I should defend myself whenever I perceive that it is unfair to make certain remarks. I am certainly not an extremist like Tcmc was. You mean I should just agree with her? If defending myself against an unfair charge is considered egoistic, so be it then.
As you can see, I have bothered to read what you post. I understand your views but I do not agree with them. Again if you think that my defending myself against your accusation of arrogance is arrogance itself and being egoistic, then so be it. Then it should also be applied to anyone who tries to defend himself or who thinks he is right. Make no mistake, the atheist thinks that he is right and that all religions are wrong. Is he arrogant? What do you think?
you mentioned an atheist thinks that he is right and all religions are wrong? did jacky, susanteo, pinknutri, TCMC, thinks that only christianity is wrong? or that all other religions are wrong?
In fact, I am not ashamed to say that I understand atheism more than most atheists here. And it is because I am knowledgeable about atheism that I can critique it well, compared to most atheists who criticise Christianity but are largely ignorant of Christianity. How is this not arrogance? To claim not to be an atheist to kno more about atheism than an atheist?
To you, everyone else is wrong and others is right. Im pretty sure what you have mentioned is not and definitely has not yet be proven to be the truth. I've mentioned many times that big bang cannot be proven truth, so is god's creation. If your prove is god is the witness, no 1 can prove god is a witness.
Do not place yourself on the high ground such tat ppl who have reason to be an atheist needs you to accept their reason for being an atheist. If i have a reason for being an atheist, i certainly do not need you to accept my reason.
Not agreeing with TCMC does not place you as an extremist, but bashing everyone who has varying opinion is an extremist.
Then it should also be applied to anyone who tries to defend himself or who thinks he is right. Make no mistake-wrong in my opinion. Everyone can defend himself and solely defend himself... but defending himself by puting others down is what you are doing which protrays arrogance and egoism.
"If defending myself against an unfair charge is considered egoistic, so be it then" You can choose various ways to defend yourself... but you choose to stand on the high ground and put others down like i remember you calling me a "non thinker". I din put on a air of arrogance that "mine is always right" when u questioned my beliefs did I? As someone brought up in another religion, did i push away all other beliefs claiming mine's the only way? Your arrogance comes in a way by placing all your beliefs on the superior high ground.
"Make no mistake, the atheist thinks that he is right and that all religions are wrong. Is he arrogant? What do you think?"
At the very least whoever i saw here did not do a run down on all other religions. I took a look at the buddhism forum, things are peaceful there even when ppl post questions about their beliefs. Ever self reflected why are there so many "trollers" and so many ppl claiming to cease following up here?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Correction. It should be that not everyone WANTS to know the answers.
But everyone NEEDS to know because it matters. Because if there really is a God to whom we are accountable to, then it makes a world of difference!
Correction. Not everyone NEEDS to know because only when you believe that your god needs us to be accountable to. Not everybody has the same beliefs as you.
dun waste time with this fellow. dun u find his ignorance, extremism, fundamentalism and narrow mindedness mind blowing? I feel pity for him as he is trapped in his own paradigm and self deluding fantasies about god. I dun think he will ever get out of his trapped world.
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:you mentioned an atheist thinks that he is right and all religions are wrong? did jacky, susanteo, pinknutri, TCMC, thinks that only christianity is wrong? or that all other religions are wrong?
In fact, I am not ashamed to say that I understand atheism more than most atheists here. And it is because I am knowledgeable about atheism that I can critique it well, compared to most atheists who criticise Christianity but are largely ignorant of Christianity. How is this not arrogance? To claim not to be an atheist to kno more about atheism than an atheist?
To you, everyone else is wrong and others is right. Im pretty sure what you have mentioned is not and definitely has not yet be proven to be the truth. I've mentioned many times that big bang cannot be proven truth, so is god's creation. If your prove is god is the witness, no 1 can prove god is a witness.
Do not place yourself on the high ground such tat ppl who have reason to be an atheist needs you to accept their reason for being an atheist. If i have a reason for being an atheist, i certainly do not need you to accept my reason.
Not agreeing with TCMC does not place you as an extremist, but bashing everyone who has varying opinion is an extremist.
Then it should also be applied to anyone who tries to defend himself or who thinks he is right. Make no mistake-wrong in my opinion. Everyone can defend himself and solely defend himself... but defending himself by puting others down is what you are doing which protrays arrogance and egoism.
"If defending myself against an unfair charge is considered egoistic, so be it then" You can choose various ways to defend yourself... but you choose to stand on the high ground and put others down like i remember you calling me a "non thinker". I din put on a air of arrogance that "mine is always right" when u questioned my beliefs did I? As someone brought up in another religion, did i push away all other beliefs claiming mine's the only way? Your arrogance comes in a way by placing all your beliefs on the superior high ground.
"Make no mistake, the atheist thinks that he is right and that all religions are wrong. Is he arrogant? What do you think?"
At the very least whoever i saw here did not do a run down on all other religions. I took a look at the buddhism forum, things are peaceful there even when ppl post questions about their beliefs. Ever self reflected why are there so many "trollers" and so many ppl claiming to cease following up here?
It seems that you may not really understand what atheism is after all.
Atheism says that all religions are wrong. Pray tell is this arrogance or not?
Atheism places itself above all religions and declare them to be delusions. Pray tell is this arrogance or not?
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
Correction. Not everyone NEEDS to know because only when you believe that your god needs us to be accountable to. Not everybody has the same beliefs as you.
The scientific community disagrees with you. Why else would billions of dollars in research grants go into searching for the origins of life?
Originally posted by Jacky Woo:dun waste time with this fellow. dun u find his ignorance, extremism, fundamentalism and narrow mindedness mind blowing? I feel pity for him as he is trapped in his own paradigm and self deluding fantasies about god. I dun think he will ever get out of his trapped world.
Still projecting Jacky?
Thanks but please save your pity, I'm not asking for it.
Oh, you still have not provided any evidence to support your assertion that God is a mere figment of imagination.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:The scientific community disagrees with you. Why else would billions of dollars in research grants go into searching for the origins of life?
You were saying that everyone needs to know because we need to be accountable to god. I do not think researching into the origins of life is to be accountable to god.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:It seems that you may not really understand what atheism is after all.
Atheism says that all religions are wrong. Pray tell is this arrogance or not?
Atheism places itself above all religions and declare them to be delusions. Pray tell is this arrogance or not?
Christianity places itself above all other religions. All unbelievers of god burn in hell. Is that arrogance or not?
You mentioned to TCMC to not bring you down to his/her level. You claimed that i am a non thinker. Is that arrogance anot?
I may not really understand atheism.. at least i dare not claim that i know atheism more than a atheist and further more i do not dare to claim to be a theist who knows more about atheism than an atheist.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Still projecting Jacky?
Thanks but please save your pity, I'm not asking for it.
Oh, you still have not provided any evidence to support your assertion that God is a mere figment of imagination.
How about proving god is not a mere figment of imagination? since you so disagree with what he says? You can prove him wrong otherwise if you could prove god is not a mere figment of imagination.
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:You were saying that everyone needs to know because we need to be accountable to god. I do not think researching into the origins of life is to be accountable to god.
Let's put it clearer.
I believe that everyone NEEDS to know because it matters. You BELIEVE that not everyone needs to know.
My reason is that because if God exists, and that we are morally accountable to Him for how we lived our lives, then it is needful that people know this truth.
What is your reason for saying that people don't need to know?
As for origins of life research, you should know that huge sums of money is spent on this because evolutionists want to prove that life indeed evolved and that there is no need for God.
See http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Scientific-Quest-Lifes-Origins/dp/0309094321
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
How about proving god is not a mere figment of imagination? since you so disagree with what he says? You can prove him wrong otherwise if you could prove god is not a mere figment of imagination.
But why should Jacky be let off the hook when he made that claim? And asking me to prove that it is not is to ask me to prove a negative.
As for my claim, I know what I am believing. If you accuse me of imagining things, then it only means it exists in my head, I am being delusional i.e. I need a shrink. But I am being very logical in my arguments, much more than Jacky. I am arguing from effects to causes, even if the cause (God) is invisible by definition.
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
Christianity places itself above all other religions. All unbelievers of god burn in hell. Is that arrogance or not?You mentioned to TCMC to not bring you down to his/her level. You claimed that i am a non thinker. Is that arrogance anot?
I may not really understand atheism.. at least i dare not claim that i know atheism more than a atheist and further more i do not dare to claim to be a theist who knows more about atheism than an atheist.
It is employing double standards and also hypocritical for an atheist to accuse Christianity of arrogance for believing that other religions are false when he himself believes that ALL religions are false. To correct Tcmc on her misrepresentation of me is not arrogance. And you did not provide the context for my alleged calling you a non thinker. Your not daring to claim to know more is because you really probably don't. But why should I be charged with arrogance when I really do know more about atheism than atheists do, and have in fact demonstrated that it is so?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
It is employing double standards and also hypocritical for an atheist to accuse Christianity of arrogance for believing that other religions are false when he himself believes that ALL religions are false. To correct Tcmc on her misrepresentation of me is not arrogance. And you did not provide the context for my alleged calling you a non thinker. Your not daring to claim to know more is because you really probably don't. But why should I be charged with arrogance when I really do know more about atheism than atheists do, and have in fact demonstrated that it is so?
i am asking if you think christianity believes that all unbelievers of god burn in hell. Is that arrogance or not?
Do not try to distract and turn it to asking about the atheist or the atheism. I am asking about your remark made as a christian and a believer of christian faith on what this statement "all unbelievers of god burn in hell Is that arrogance or not?"
I am not asking whether atheism believing all religions are false whether thats arrogance when compared to christianity. Do not drag your answer to atheism yet.
http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/443237?page=16
this is the page you are looking for - dare to say that at the risk of offending me that i am a non thinker... making such remarks conveniently means that you have always been placing yourself in a higher position and im definitely not the first person you are running down.
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
i am asking if you think christianity believes that all unbelievers of god burn in hell. Is that arrogance or not?Do not try to distract and turn it to asking about the atheist or the atheism. I am asking about your remark made as a christian and a believer of christian faith on what this statement "all unbelievers of god burn in hell Is that arrogance or not?"
I am not asking whether atheism believing all religions are false whether thats arrogance when compared to christianity. Do not drag your answer to atheism yet.
This is not a distraction. I am asking you not to employ double standards here. If Christianity should be charged with arrogance for its exclusive claims, so should atheism.
Now for my answer, it is NOT arrogance for Christianity to claim that those who refuse to believe in God will face an eternity in hell.
I await your answer.
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:http://sgforums.com/forums/1381/topics/443237?page=16
this is the page you are looking for - dare to say that at the risk of offending me that i am a non thinker... making such remarks conveniently means that you have always been placing yourself in a higher position and im definitely not the first person you are running down.
Hey, that's totally unfair because you completely ignored the context! Here's the context,
"From your prelimary answers I can dare say that, at the risk of offending you, that you are more a NON-thinker than a free-thinker. Not only are you unable to defend your belief system, you don't really think about why you even believe anything. It seems also that you blindly accept that evolution is fact, but then again you do not seem to know much about evolution. As it is said, an unexamined life is not worth living. I urge you then, to take time to think through your own beliefs, and hopefully you would find that only Christianity supplies the best and true answers to these questions. I have made that conclusion after examining my faith. I can say that I am an intellectually fulfilled theist."
Please read the whole post again. I wasn't saying that you CANNOT think or that you are mentally challenged, but that you have chosen NOT to think about these things. Therefore you are not really a free thinker but a non-thinker, in the sense that you did not think about why you believe certain things. So you see, the truth is far different than what you have tried to picture it. You have completely misunderstood my point. I thereby stand vindicated of my words.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Hey, that's totally unfair because you completely ignored the context! Here's the context,
"From your prelimary answers I can dare say that, at the risk of offending you, that you are more a NON-thinker than a free-thinker. Not only are you unable to defend your belief system, you don't really think about why you even believe anything. It seems also that you blindly accept that evolution is fact, but then again you do not seem to know much about evolution. As it is said, an unexamined life is not worth living. I urge you then, to take time to think through your own beliefs, and hopefully you would find that only Christianity supplies the best and true answers to these questions. I have made that conclusion after examining my faith. I can say that I am an intellectually fulfilled theist."
Please read the whole post again. I wasn't saying that you CANNOT think or that you are mentally challenged, but that you have chosen NOT to think about these things. Therefore you are not really a free thinker but a non-thinker, in the sense that you did not think about why you believe certain things. So you see, the truth is far different than what you have tried to picture it. You have completely misunderstood my point. I thereby stand vindicated of my words.
And so just because i have choosen not to think and so i am labelled? However what gives you the right to start labelling others as thinkers/non thinkers? The truth is still the same in that you have authorised yourself over others and authorised yourself to label others to be way below you just because ppl have not pondered over things you have pondered or i should say "things you feel ought to be pondered'.
Anyway from all your posts and interactions, even if i explain myself you wouldn't have accepted it anyway. i do not hold god in that almighty position you hold and i do not believe he has all the answers. Explaining/answering to you will only result in you putting down more of my beliefs.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:This is not a distraction. I am asking you not to employ double standards here. If Christianity should be charged with arrogance for its exclusive claims, so should atheism.
Now for my answer, it is NOT arrogance for Christianity to claim that those who refuse to believe in God will face an eternity in hell.
I await your answer.
My answer is christianity is arrogance. Simply because it pushes for itself and rejects all others in the same realm. Pushes away all other religions.Atheism rejects all religion while it isolates itself from religion. There is a distinctive difference be it you like it anot or whether you feel there is anot. I used to think really strong believers of the faith go way past that. Your sentence proved me othewise and showed me more of his "love"
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:My answer is christianity is arrogance. Simply because it pushes for itself and rejects all others in the same realm. Pushes away all other religions.Atheism rejects all religion while it isolates itself from religion. There is a distinctive difference be it you like it anot or whether you feel there is anot. I used to think really strong believers of the faith go way past that. Your sentence proved me othewise and showed me more of his "love"
not only arrogance, but deluded and extreme and fundamentalist too. enough said
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:My answer is christianity is arrogance. Simply because it pushes for itself and rejects all others in the same realm. Pushes away all other religions.Atheism rejects all religion while it isolates itself from religion. There is a distinctive difference be it you like it anot or whether you feel there is anot. I used to think really strong believers of the faith go way past that. Your sentence proved me othewise and showed me more of his "love"
If Christianity is arrogance because of its exclusive claims, then so is atheism, whether you like it or not or whether you feel it is or not. Atheism does not isolate itself from religion. As a worldview it attacks all religions as false. You probably never even read Dawkin's "The God Delusion" where he attacks all religions but Christianity in particular. Whatever distinctive difference between Christianity and atheism's exclusive claims to truth that you see is IMO non-existent since both makes exclusive truth to claims. You will be engaging in the fallacy of special pleading if you make such kind of concession for atheism and immunise it from the same charge of arrogance.