Originally posted by As romanista2001:also, one thing very funny leh.............since at the time of Jesus, China has the biggest population (God don't know meh?)................but instead of sending Jesus there, he sent him to you know where..........so mah end up much more people NOT going to heaven ?
and of course since God is obviously racist as well and practice favouritism....................maybe there's apartheid in heaven also don't you think ?
why the favouritism towards jews when supposedly he created everyone ?
i bet the christian religion would have been long gone if jesus was a black African, eh ?
makes no sense at all...............no wonder more and more Angmohs leaving for Eastern religions lah..........
***) what about those children that were born handicapped or deformed...........? or those small kids that died in tragic accidents or were murdered ?
***) or those evil people enjoying wealth and luxury while the good people suffer ?
the usual ''God works in mysterious ways'' bullcrap again ?.........................makes no sense.............
Does it matter ? During the time of the Roman's height in thier empire, the saying "All Roads lead to Rome" ?
Its obvious there will be no Apartheid in heaven.
So the jews did not suffer under that supposedly favourism as well ? A nationless people sold off as slaves ?
What about the kids n the deformaties ? Ye of such weak faith demands so much. What about them ? U see someone being mobbed by gangsters, are u even going to lift a finger to help ? Or just watch on. Do u volunteer to help the needy ? I dont see u doing it? Did u ? If u did, good on you. But i seriously doubt it.
All those evil people enjoying wealth and luxury while the good people suffer. Thats why the good people will have the eternal life they deserve while former can have thier earthly luxuries but will most likely suffer for eternity.
So then does it mean u prefer to do evil then good ? So what makes u any different from religious zealots ?
Does God have to conform to YOUR logic ? Or Rooney's paradoxes ?
Its like a maggot.. trying to compel a man looking at him writhering in rotten flesh to do what it wants. All the man can see and understand is a wriggling maggot. Maye perhaps contemplate the nature of the maggot.. but nothing more.
I am not saying only christianity only, but with one god or many gods concept.
It is highly illogical and incoherent to say the least not to mention lots of contradictions with so many grandmother and old wives tales. I cant believe human beings, with its intellect, can rely on an unknown source called the holy books, which is embellished, exagerrated and not to mention highly illogical.
human beings have come a long way without the aid of god or any divine beings. look how far humans have progressed, in terms of scientific knowledge, discovery and technology. if we were to rely on god or holy books, there will be no progress whatsover in our society. everything also say god this god that. why are the diseases and sicknesses if you asked them? its god's will. see, where is the progress? there are so many questions being put forth, but you see the ones replying did not even bother replying to the questions, but rebuttal and counter rebuttal. I suppose the questions asked will have no answers to it, because the concept of god is flawed and full of contradictions to begin with. my 2 cents worth.
Originally posted by BadzMaro:Does it matter ? During the time of the Roman's height in thier empire, the saying "All Roads lead to Rome" ?
Its obvious there will be no Apartheid in heaven.
So the jews did not suffer under that supposedly favourism as well ? A nationless people sold off as slaves ?
What about the kids n the deformaties ? Ye of such weak faith demands so much. What about them ? U see someone being mobbed by gangsters, are u even going to lift a finger to help ? Or just watch on. Do u volunteer to help the needy ? I dont see u doing it? Did u ? If u did, good on you. But i seriously doubt it.
All those evil people enjoying wealth and luxury while the good people suffer. Thats why the good people will have the eternal life they deserve while former can have thier earthly luxuries but will most likely suffer for eternity.
So then does it mean u prefer to do evil then good ? So what makes u any different from religious zealots ?
Does God have to conform to YOUR logic ? Or Rooney's paradoxes ?
Its like a maggot.. trying to compel a man looking at him writhering in rotten flesh to do what it wants. All the man can see and understand is a wriggling maggot. Maye perhaps contemplate the nature of the maggot.. but nothing more.
after trying to skirt around all my questions with your bullcrap answers, why don't you just use that old favourite saying..........
'' god works in mysterious ways.............'' or ''the devil at work.............''
typical christian answer when they're stuck..................saying that humans can't possibly understand and all that other crap.................
even the christians will start to question unless they're brain-dead or totally can't accept they've been had...........it's just like in the old days, when people were persecuted and executed when they deny the Earth is flat.................
Originally posted by Dondontan:Who cares got or no god, god or got! With or without god, life goes on.
If people want to believe there is god let them be.
What god , no god , got god!!!! got god god got! shang nao jing!
got god also no care, no god also no care, so got god god got . . . . .. . .. .
agreed the earth is still round
Originally posted by As romanista2001:
after trying to skirt around all my questions with your bullcrap answers, why don't you just use that old favourite saying..........
'' god works in mysterious ways.............'' or ''the devil at work.............''
typical christian answer when they're stuck..................saying that humans can't possibly understand and all that other crap.................
even the christians will start to question unless they're brain-dead or totally can't accept they've been had...........it's just like in the old days, when people were persecuted and executed when they deny the Earth is flat.................
What u expect me to answer ?Am i omniscient ? I give u the answers in the previous page but obviously u didnt bother to read them.
But, from there u learn that regardless of the belief, the truth which is already there, and that is earth is round exists, irregardless of you thinking otherwise.
How come no mention about Galileo and Copernicus, being devout Christians themselves proved otherwise that the earth was round instead ? They question when the bible was intepreted literally. Instead of denouncing the bible, they intepret it with science side by side.
But until now u still fail to understand.
If all the answers were so easy like textbook for you, there would already be world peace.
every time i see your answers always the same...............
YaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwN............................no point talking anymore about this topic lah.............
Originally posted by As romanista2001:every time i see your answers always the same...............
YaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwN............................no point talking anymore about this topic lah.............
reason is simple lar. he is not god and cannot answer on god's behalf mah. thats why christians always give so many half past six answers to the many questions posed.
Originally posted by As romanista2001:
after trying to skirt around all my questions with your bullcrap answers, why don't you just use that old favourite saying..........
'' god works in mysterious ways.............'' or ''the devil at work.............''
typical christian answer when they're stuck..................saying that humans can't possibly understand and all that other crap.................
even the christians will start to question unless they're brain-dead or totally can't accept they've been had...........it's just like in the old days, when people were persecuted and executed when they deny the Earth is flat.................
its god's will lar is the old sayings mah.
yah ah, forgot that other sorry excuse...........God's will................if it's his will that the innocent ones suffer and the evil ones prosper.............
this kind of God.....................might as well don't want hor...............
of course they can always use the other sorry excuse...............the devil at work...............to explain
einstein said it best when he said that the concept of god is the by-product of human failings and weaknesses. there is so much truth in this statement.
it is easy lar just ask the Christian to jump down from 12 floors to proof that there is a god and heaven if they can't and will not do it . which mean they are being manipulate by a book written by man or people with a big mouth just get money without sweating . Maybe it is a 'fake thing'(faith).
how about this? god concept was started by ancient people, who has no idea what mental illness is? he was suffering from some mental delusions or schizophrenia and thought god was telling him about him and things like that. maybe that was how it was started.
Originally posted by As romanista2001:yah ah, forgot that other sorry excuse...........God's will................if it's his will that the innocent ones suffer and the evil ones prosper.............
this kind of God.....................might as well don't want hor...............
of course they can always use the other sorry excuse...............the devil at work...............to explain
yes
day in day out
i hear Christians give this kind of excuses, or "explanations"
nothing more to say
Originally posted by BanguIzai:yes
day in day out
i hear Christians give this kind of excuses, or "explanations"
nothing more to say
no eyes see and no ear to hear lar. christians are superstitious also, dare to say other religions as being satanic. sorry to say, they are a sorry deluded lot.
If God is all-powerful and all-good, it would have created a universe with no suffering and no evil. But, evil and suffering exist. Therefore God does not exist, is not all-powerful or is not benevolent. Attempts to justify the existence of evil are called theodicies. There are no fully working theodicies, even popular ones such as the free will theodicy were rejected thousands of years ago for reasons that still stand today. It seems that if there is a god, it is not the all-good moral being that classical religions would have us believe"
If God is moral then everyone has a chance to enter heaven. This means people who never learn which religion is correct, or even accept the wrong religion, have a chance at entering heaven.
Infallible Texts, Authoritive Texts and Divinity
Mistranslations and contradictions
It is apparent that every translation of holy texts (this is truer for older religions such as Judaism and Christianity) than newer ones like Islam is different to other translations (otherwise there would only be one translation required per language per book), and there are many different versions of holy texts available. This means that there are multiple ways of interpreting the texts.
In most texts you can find one part which appears to contradict another part. In most cases, tradition will dictate which part is the 'most' correct or which part is a refinement on the other. Deciding which parts override which is another cause of confusion;
Change over time
As society changes over time, which it does, people's opinions and assumptions change. The fact that these change over time as they do means that it is likely to continue to change; that our current understanding is only temporary. The deities responsible for holy text would know that this would happen, therefore the truths that are written in to them must be designed to be interpreted in a dynamic way; but this means that there are no absolutes.
When a person imagines, perceives or has an apparent "experience" which comes from their God, then it must also pass through their mental systems before it is understood. Therefore it is easy to see that no two people can ever perceive the same God - for example, every Christian believes in a slightly different God depending on their own personal experiences and thought patterns, and psychological needs and wants. Nobody can perceive the absolute God without first having to think about it and therefore corrupt the image.
Stephen Hawking's Cosmology and Theism (1994)
1. Stephen Hawking has recently argued that there is 'no place for a creator', that God does not exist. In his quantum cosmology
there would be no singularities at which the laws of science broke down and no edge of space-time at which one would have to appeal to God or some new law to set the boundary conditions for space-time . . . The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE . . . What place, then, for a creator? ([9], pp. 136, 141)
Given I'm drugged out of my mind right now on medication (it might be for my seizures), I'm going to just make a few posts. Hopefully won't make any posts too absurb. At least I hope I know and remember what I'm doing.
Would just like to remind everyone out there whatever faith or non-faith you are, that in sgforums in particular, there are a lot of people who are more into the conflict itself than the real discussion.
Meanwhile also, for any real discussion that does go on, end of the day people end up in the same state of faith or non-faith. Everybody chooses what they want to believe. Even belief in science is a belief in itself. Not that there's anything wrong. I respect anyone who to his or her credit has done research (especially extensive one) on whatever they are saying. It does beat making sweeping statements off the top of your head.
Having said that, there are people (again more so in sgforusm) who ask questions not for the sake of hearing the answers. It's not so much that they have already decided the answers for themselves, but rather their intentions are not to ask, to seek, to clarify, but the ultimate aim is malicious and to attack people (in some cases whole groups of people).
Meanwhile though, I feel Badzmaro has done very well in trying to answer your queries and at least she has done so in the right spirit. Sadly however that same spirit is not reciprocated by all. She (pardon me if I'm wrong, may have mixed up) means well and I think has been nice enough and some seem to have overlooked already that she doesn't fall within the negative stereotype that some seem to always keep talking about.
Still, I believe a lot of us here are not really masters in science or in theology, and I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean that our conversation here in many ways is still very much that of laymen talking to one another.
Healthy discussion is good, we can all try to be open and try to understand what each other are talking about. It is always easier to be forthcoming with replies when the other person is hostile. Be it whether you are asking about people's religion or talking about your own faith or atheism.
Meanwhile, about the concept of God, I am not going to push the idea of only the Christian God, but just want to bring up some points. Idea is not to push the ideas on you as fact, but rather just to bring some other points up for your consideration.
Nothing happens in contrary to nature, only man's understanding of it.
The quote above is not taken from any bible or religious text, just something I came across and it spoke to me in many ways.
I'm not dissing science, but science afterall is still done by man, and we have seen how scientific theories have changed radically due to newer discoveries. For example, scientists used to believe positive charges moved thus creating current flow. Years later we find out it's actually electrons that move. So who is to say that what some scientists are saying now won't change totally again another day. I'm not saying the people who guessed or inferred wrongly were idiots, they deserve credit for trying to find out and at least give some basis for people to know.
Just to add, wasn't it the smartest people who said the earth was flat? Galileo was branded a heretic by his church for saying otherwise. Some may argue that it's because of religion, my point is who's to say the smartest people aren't wrong about some things, whichever era they may be.
Coming back to that one example about positive charges and electrons, for nature it never changed. As far as nature was concerned, the electrons were always the ones moving, it was man himself whose understanding changed.
Personally, what I feel is science is man's method of studying and understanding things that God has created. I'll grant that some people feel and in their minds know that such studying leads to conclusion that there is no God or Gods, I'm not going to contest that, just wanted to bring up my own thought about science and God(s).
I have said this before, God isn't a tool or some mystic being that you summon and mystically do everything. Gosh, having problem phrasing my thoughts. I feel like a drunk moneky on a typewriter.
Perhaps maybe God or Gods that be made use of nature and physical laws to create the universe. I have ever met creationists who went as far as to say that evolution was actually a tool used by God(s) to create the many different species. They even go as far as to say what really was one day to God(s) was really a million earth days. There are also Christians who believe the Big Bang was a creation by God to create the universe. I'm not saying that's necessarily my stand, but just to give an example of this train of thought. Not asking you believe it as fact either.
Actually, there have been many Christians who were also scientists like Isaac Newton and Benjamin Franklin (off the top of by groggy head). There still are today, just that man's concept towards divine being has changed.
This I actually got from somewhere totally non-Christian and non-religious in nature. God/Gods doesnt necessarily have to appear or to intervene only when the time comes. A God can be such that they control or manipulate if you will, to set up things such that they happen in that exact manner. To the individual they may only see part of the event and not understand even if they witness the whole event. But on a cosmic sense that is what the God or Gods wanted. I hope this last paragraph makes sense somehow.
I have read in newspapers and magazines, they are scientists who don't subscribe to any one faith, do believe that the earth and the universe was created rather than brought about through chaos. I have also come across Christians who believe in evolution and the big bang. In fact I've hung out with Satanists but that's a different story.
Just as I've mentioned even among Christians there are different schools of thought, among non-Christians there are as well. Yet it's the science and non-God vs the pro-Christian God that draws up the most debate and most heated discussions.
In one article I read about a pro-creationist scientist (non-Christian), he mentioned science should go back to discovering, rather than work on a pre-assumption. Just a thought for your consideration.
Thanks if you've taken the time to read this, I hope I've managed to bring up the points I thought of when I began because honestly I've already forgotten what I had wanted to say. Drugs do that to you (I'm a junkie!).
Just as how we've changed over the years in how we see the things around us, maybe we can also look at our understanding of what a God is or what Gods are.
And about God working in mysterious ways or the Devil at work, well this is my personal standpoint. We never know for sure what is happening is from God or the Devil. At least maybe I'm not at that level and maybe I'll never be. Not that I mind actually.
Again not asking you to believe, and I really don't know how to get any of you to understand this concept. Understanding and believing a concept are two different things.
The suggesiton from me here is that the intervention by God or Gods is not necessarily a direct one. It may be pre-meditated or pre-arranged or set in motion since the beginning of time.
Given that the devil or any others like him have been around for as long a time, I'm not surprised he bides his time as well. The devil is no idiot, in fact he is very smart and I always tell my friends, you think the devil only comes at you with horns and a pitchfork? That's the easiest way to scare you off.
Both God and the Devil work through people and other things. They don't necessarily have to appear like how they would in a fairy tale or a video game. Sometimes they use agents or 'middlemen' (can't think of a better word in my current state).
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Meanwhile though, do some of you notice how differently you ask questions towards different groups of people and how vastly contrasting the attitude of your posts are?
Also, by making sweeping statements that just because people have a religion they are delusional and idiots, doesn't that make you as blind and as presumptious as the people you are complaining about?
Originally posted by Rooney9:If God is all-powerful and all-good, it would have created a universe with no suffering and no evil. But, evil and suffering exist. Therefore God does not exist, is not all-powerful or is not benevolent. Attempts to justify the existence of evil are called theodicies. There are no fully working theodicies, even popular ones such as the free will theodicy were rejected thousands of years ago for reasons that still stand today. It seems that if there is a god, it is not the all-good moral being that classical religions would have us believe"
If God is moral then everyone has a chance to enter heaven. This means people who never learn which religion is correct, or even accept the wrong religion, have a chance at entering heaven.
This is in fact not necessarily a Christian stand, but some believe a life where everything is uniform is no life at all. Like how some people say that death is what gives life meaning, because death puts an end to it and makes life limited.
Some people believe that people should have the right to choose, to make mistakes. Otherwise what is the purpose behind the struggles you have to face. They believe people should be allowed to fall so that they can pick themselves up should they want to.
That you can't have the good without the bad. But that doesn't mean just because there will always be bad mean that one should give up. The believed notion is to never stop trying.
This issues though about life being perfect or being good because its imperfect can go back and forth forever and involve many people but it'll never be resolved, just to let you know. People, very often not between Christians and non-Christians have always had differing views on this for ages past and such difference in thought will continue for ages come.
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Someone mentioned to me about someone mentioning in this forum (though maybe not in this thread) about how people who do evil all their lives but accept Christ just before they die, then they get to go to heaven. They find it unfair.
Well, two things.
Firstly, who's to say that if they truly believe or truly repented that they shouldn't be allowed in heaven? How truly do they believe or repent though? Who really knows? Nobody except God (whether you believe he exists or not is another thing) would know for sure. We can all say what we want, Christian or non-Christian, but ultimately is not us that decides who goes or who doesn't. Likewise does everyone who call on the name of God truly a Christian and truly repents?
Secondly, just because they still get to go heaven it doesn't mean they will go unpunished. I myself will have my own reckoning when the time comes. I've known among some groups who believe you will experience hell for 3 days like Jesus did before you can go heaven, during which you are punished accordingly for all your sins. I don't know if that's the case, all I'm saying is there's answering.
Just to add though, some people ask why does God and Jesus not save everyone? Why attach the condition of having to accept first? Well, it's one of those concepts whereby you just get it or you don't. You either believe it or you don't. God won't help those who don't help themselves. Like a student who doesn't study and expect God to give him good grades. Even if you believe God was like some tool or powerup you summon in a game, you have to click the button first don't you?
Like today, I still fall sick. I don't lie in bed and expect that I'll be healed instantly, I know I still have to get up and go see the doctor, pay for consultation and medication before I get well. But I am thankful to God I have the money to pay and that there is a doctor I can go to.
There's a little story, about this lady who needed help badly. She kept praying to God that she needed help and she did so endlessly. So happens each time people keep going up to her to offer help, but she turns them away saying,"God will provide."
The lady dies and meets God, the first thing she does is to ask him why God didn't help her inspite of her prayers. God replied,"I kept sending you those people but you kept turning them away."
I once also read a true story about how a certain religious lady felt it was wrong to go for theraphy because it felt like betraying or not having faith in whoever she believed in. A neighbour, a non-believer of any faith was the one who told her, maybe that's the way the divine powers you believe in are supposed to help you?
Originally posted by SomebodyInSG:
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Someone mentioned to me about someone mentioning in this forum (though maybe not in this thread) about how people who do evil all their lives but accept Christ just before they die, then they get to go to heaven. They find it unfair.
Well, two things.
Firstly, who's to say that if they truly believe or truly repented that they shouldn't be allowed in heaven? How truly do they believe or repent though? Who really knows? Nobody except God (whether you believe he exists or not is another thing) would know for sure. We can all say what we want, Christian or non-Christian, but ultimately is not us that decides who goes or who doesn't. Likewise does everyone who call on the name of God truly a Christian and truly repents?
Secondly, just because they still get to go heaven it doesn't mean they will go unpunished. I myself will have my own reckoning when the time comes. I've known among some groups who believe you will experience hell for 3 days like Jesus did before you can go heaven, during which you are punished accordingly for all your sins. I don't know if that's the case, all I'm saying is there's answering.
Just to add though, some people ask why does God and Jesus not save everyone? Why attach the condition of having to accept first? Well, it's one of those concepts whereby you just get it or you don't. You either believe it or you don't. God won't help those who don't help themselves. Like a student who doesn't study and expect God to give him good grades. Even if you believe God was like some tool or powerup you summon in a game, you have to click the button first don't you?
Like today, I still fall sick. I don't lie in bed and expect that I'll be healed instantly, I know I still have to get up and go see the doctor, pay for consultation and medication before I get well. But I am thankful to God I have the money to pay and that there is a doctor I can go to.
There's a little story, about this lady who needed help badly. She kept praying to God that she needed help and she did so endlessly. So happens each time people keep going up to her to offer help, but she turns them away saying,"God will provide."
The lady dies and meets God, the first thing she does is to ask him why God didn't help her inspite of her prayers. God replied,"I kept sending you those people but you kept turning them away."
I once also read a true story about how a certain religious lady felt it was wrong to go for theraphy because it felt like betraying or not having faith in whoever she believed in. A neighbour, a non-believer of any faith was the one who told her, maybe that's the way the divine powers you believe in are supposed to help you?
repent does not mean turn over a new leaf. bad habits die hard. thus, last minute repent could be due to fear of going to hell.