Originally posted by stupidissmart:All I wanna say is tat morality does not have to come about from religion but from living as a group . I guess in a certain sense u agree with tat statement
For secular society, they have something called law and tat is how they enforce it to everybody to follow certain basic social living. If u talk about people abusing the system and exploiting the people, this happens to religious organisations as well.
Indeed it is all you can say, because you who claim to be rational and logical and understand the true nature of reality turn out in the end, to be too weak to overcome your own instinctive irrationalities and retreat back again, afraid of what would happen if you truly stepped beyond morality and took charge of your own potential, understanding what true athiesm is.
The real enemy was never religion, it was always yourself. The fearful, the irrational. Those who pretend they are "bright" and can write books on Selfish Genes but yet lack the fortitude to truly follow their conclusions to their logical end, seeking instead to seek solace in the very habits of the religions they claim to have left. For what end? It is all fear, a fear put in them by conditioning from young keeping them as slaves.
Morality is a diease that the selfish gene puts on the individual to enslave him to it. The religious person and the weak, unexceptional athiest who clings to morality are one and they same.
They are equally decieved, they are equally enslaved. There is no real difference. Both deny the nature of reality and refuse to accept the truth that in our universe that there is nothing but power and the will to it. Both are in denial, their debates over who is better are useless and a waste of time. An athiest who believes and practices morality is an oxymoron, little different from the religious mass.
The real man, the superman truly free.
Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:if let you choose between christian god and goddess of mercy ? which one will you choose, can choose one only .
hi Fairyfairy86,
why is there a need to choose? The choice made to draw the line so clearly between religions by many people in this world since the start of civilisation is the root cause of many of our world's problems today, seriously.
Anyway, as I've been saying in most of my posts, there really is only 1 and only 1 Creator/Source/God, who does not belong to anyone or group in the Universe. Anyone who has wishes to, can connect with Creator/Source/God, regardless of faith and beliefs. However, possibility of 2-way communication really depends on the person's lifeplan.
Some may take offence at what I've to say, but I still need to say it again: Creator/Source/God is not a Man or human or person (as Man is not the only living being in the Universe), though Jesus was a real Man on Earth, back in the past. Creator/Source/God is All That Is in the Universe, though I usually use "He/Him" to refer to Him as if he is a person, for convenience sake. I know He won't take offence. :)
In the bible, it was said that Jesus was made in God's likeness, if I recall correctly. It really meant all beings in the Universe eg. Jesus came from Creator/Source/God.
Kuan Yin was also on Earth in the distant past, though she/he is still helping Man on Earth in other ways now from other realms. She is an extremely caring being who like the other Masters will help anyone regardless of faith or belief, if there's a need to. Hence, why is there a need to choose, when they both exist and each have a role to play in our Universe and Life.
I foresee objections to what I've said, and I have no intention to start a debate on this, as it's totally pointless. Only beings (there are many in this world) whose lifeplans are meant to come in contact with Creator/Source/God and Higher Beings will have the required experiences and understanding. Others will just probably think it's crazy talk. So, such choices and debates are pointless. No amount of proof is enough to convince non-believers. Of course, care needs to be taken to avoid being taken for a ride by fakers. Develop one's intuition to feel the truth from lies or half-truths or half-lies.
Everyone's lifeplan and learning journey is different. There's a reason why everyone's experiences are different. More importantly, we should just live life as best as we could in helping others we come across in Life, regardless of faith or beliefs, and let Nature take its course.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
Facebook Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=227006050892
Morality is a diease that the selfish gene puts on the individual to enslave him to it. The religious person and the weak, unexceptional athiest who clings to morality are one and they same.
Well, let me summarise wat u r trying to say here in a more simple form and u can comment to see if it is right or not
U r trying to say tat people, who subscribe to morality from living in a group, r equally stupid as people who believe in religion. This is because u feel tat if we break all forms of morality, then life will be more successful to u
True, if u r a person who is too moral and fear of offending other people in life, it is true tat u r impeded. However if u ask me, even those very successful people who have little morals had certainly live reasonably moral-ful life. There is a limit set on how immoral u can be, and tat is really called law.
Take for example a selfish businessman who exploit the abour market and pay peanuts to his workers. Though he did not pay his workers fairly, he still live in a social manner and did not break the order of society. If u talk about a colleague who goes around backstabbing people and bad mouthing others to get himself a promotion, although he is someone we hate a lot, he still follows the minimum requirement of living in a society and did not break its code. If these examples r not the kind u mean, perhaps u could state it out
I think believing in religion or not, is simply whether u believe in it or not. My belief won't change the world. But at least knowing reality could helps me more. Do u agree tat knowing the truth of the world could help u handle it better ?
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Indeed it is all you can say, because you who claim to be rational and logical and understand the true nature of reality turn out in the end, to be too weak to overcome your own instinctive irrationalities and retreat back again, afraid of what would happen if you truly stepped beyond morality and took charge of your own potential, understanding what true athiesm is.
The real enemy was never religion, it was always yourself. The fearful, the irrational. Those who pretend they are "bright" and can write books on Selfish Genes but yet lack the fortitude to truly follow their conclusions to their logical end, seeking instead to seek solace in the very habits of the religions they claim to have left. For what end? It is all fear, a fear put in them by conditioning from young keeping them as slaves.
Morality is a diease that the selfish gene puts on the individual to enslave him to it. The religious person and the weak, unexceptional athiest who clings to morality are one and they same.
They are equally decieved, they are equally enslaved. There is no real difference. Both deny the nature of reality and refuse to accept the truth that in our universe that there is nothing but power and the will to it. Both are in denial, their debates over who is better are useless and a waste of time. An athiest who believes and practices morality is an oxymoron, little different from the religious mass.
The real man, the superman truly free.
The only way to gauge freedom is to see others being enslaved, without it you have no criteria to establish the nature of freedom. So if everyone is free, no one is
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:The only way to gauge freedom is to see others being enslaved, without it you have no criteria to establish the nature of freedom. So if everyone is free, no one is
What makes you think this is about everyone being free?
The question is if YOU, YOURSELF. Want to be free, or if you want to carry on decieving yourself. Who cares if other people want to carry on being slaves?
But know this. If you choose the path of the slave, it is of little concern to the free supermen. But you are simply wasting your life, potential and energy arguing and struggling with the weak. All the excuses you give yourself for staying that way is simply self-denial, pretty much like what you are doing now.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Well, let me summarise wat u r trying to say here in a more simple form and u can comment to see if it is right or not
U r trying to say tat people, who subscribe to morality from living in a group, r equally stupid as people who believe in religion. This is because u feel tat if we break all forms of morality, then life will be more successful to u
True, if u r a person who is too moral and fear of offending other people in life, it is true tat u r impeded. However if u ask me, even those very successful people who have little morals had certainly live reasonably moral-ful life. There is a limit set on how immoral u can be, and tat is really called law.
Take for example a selfish businessman who exploit the abour market and pay peanuts to his workers. Though he did not pay his workers fairly, he still live in a social manner and did not break the order of society. If u talk about a colleague who goes around backstabbing people and bad mouthing others to get himself a promotion, although he is someone we hate a lot, he still follows the minimum requirement of living in a society and did not break its code. If these examples r not the kind u mean, perhaps u could state it out
I think believing in religion or not, is simply whether u believe in it or not. My belief won't change the world. But at least knowing reality could helps me more. Do u agree tat knowing the truth of the world could help u handle it better ?
You still don't understand it do you? There are no limits. There are no laws.
The only law is power, and the will to it. You trying to say that maybe there are limits are but the result of the slave mentality soceity has put into you trying to restrain you by default.
Quite simply. Religion or Weak Athiesm (which is the majority of athiests) are either true or false, but they cannot be good or bad. There is no good or bad. There is only weak and strong. The problem with weak athiesm is that in many respects it is worse then religion, the people are supposedly free to see the nature of reality but yet are in self denial.
At the very least the religious on the opiate have the will, even if in delusion, to power. The weak athiests are disorganised and ineffective, they are always searching for a creed but never have the will to it. Basically they are neutered religion, and they make a lot of noise. Weak athiesm is infantile, they devote their attention to debunking religion because it is a good distraction from actually needing to deal with their own slave-mentality.
The Strong, Real Athiest- in fact the term athiest is irrelevant, he is simply superman. Is beyond all this nonsense. The fact that both the religious and athiestic try to oppose him with their weak arguments trying to pertain to a herd slave mentality is an indication of his superiority.
I prefer the "weak" atheists to be disorganized than organized cause we saw what religions became when they are organized.
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:What makes you think this is about everyone being free?
The question is if YOU, YOURSELF. Want to be free, or if you want to carry on decieving yourself. Who cares if other people want to carry on being slaves?
But know this. If you choose the path of the slave, it is of little concern to the free supermen. But you are simply wasting your life, potential and energy arguing and struggling with the weak. All the excuses you give yourself for staying that way is simply self-denial, pretty much like what you are doing now.
Your issue is about morality, I simply think that it remains an evolutionary imperitive that helped us to survive in a community, nothing more
ever thought of this. what if there is no god.
Quite simply. Religion or Weak Athiesm (which is the majority of athiests) are either true or false, but they cannot be good or bad. There is no good or bad. There is only weak and strong. The problem with weak athiesm is that in many respects it is worse then religion, the people are supposedly free to see the nature of reality but yet are in self denial.
I think tat is a discrepancy between wat u observed and wat I observed from society.
Morals doesn't have to come from religion. There is general law and order, as u can see in most developed civilisation. People generally do not go about performing serious anti social behavior such as killing or raping. Most people have morals, including non religious people. And people classify good people, as people who perform good activities as a group while bad people, as people who performed group segregating activities. Tat is good and bad, not just power or powerless. We r not following morals blindly. We follow because we understand the importance of it. There r people who may be exploting the system but at least the general society as I observed is still full of people with morals.
Tat is basically it. U talk about power etc, it is just theory at best. As said before, u should believe in something more credible, and knowing the truth is more important than believing in a sooth sounding lie. I think dealing with the truth directly is better than dishing out opium to camouflage it
Originally posted by stupidissmart:As said before, u should believe in something more credible, and knowing the truth is more important than believing in a sooth sounding lie. I think dealing with the truth directly is better than dishing out opium to camouflage it
Originally posted by Rooney9:ever thought of this. what if there is no god.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Nothing could not create everything. If there was no God there would not be creation. There would not be beginning(which implies there would not be ending either).
But you see there's now a dynamic space which is currently ever expanding, matters and cycle of matters, living creatures and a whole new dimension of consciousness created by the sentient beings and other living creatures in it that made possible the registering of time and the observation of space and matters. If there was no God then everything that I just mentioned was created out of nothingness and through logic alone we all know that couldn't be. And we are the witness of this grand creation without which there was no one to bear witness and there was no one to be aware of this magnificent dynamic space and matters that we now live in.
For your claim that everything has to come from something, it raises the question of the source of god. If u claim that god needs no beginning, that already seems to contradict the source of your argument. The invention of a recurrence terminator does not actually mean the terminator exists, only that it might be possible. However anything is possible, no matter how unlikely, so the possibility of a god is outweighed by its improbability. I can say that everything started from the two protons in the big bang, you claim that god came first, so its just a disagreement over the starting point, not a factor that helps to prove god.
Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:All the central figures of the main religions in this world, like Jesus, Buddha, Prophet Muhammad were real people who came to Earth with missions to help people of the world understand the Truth of Earth, and live in ways that will enable 'Heaven on Earth'. Their intentions were all pure and meant for goodness of the world.
However, the problems and separatism of our world today are the result of other Men who intentionally or un-intentionally misinterpreted their original intentions, and passed them on for countless generations, for their selfish gains. Hence, we need to use our heart to feel the Truth, and live accordingly, not simply do as we're told, without questioning any doubts one may have. There are far too many half-truths, half-lies and lies expertly mixed together in this world today.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
Facebook Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=227006050892
I regret joining your group on Facebook man -.- You are just one of those people who support New Age movement and no different from people who practice scientology WTF.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
That's the point of believing in God so that you would expect to see the truth in it. Atheism is a never to be confirmed belief while one could expect to see confirmation of his faith sometime in his or her life. That is to see what is written becoming live to confirm what one experiences. It may take time but a Christian should see the fruits of his faith in blessings and the works of the holy ghost even when he or she is not perfect. It doesn't mean that a Christian is free of all troubles quite the contrary even since having faith is equated as finishing a race to win a victory so one could very much expect a struggle in his life regarding to maintaining his faith.
Agnosticism.
Originally posted by Larryteo:I regret joining your group on Facebook man -.- You are just one of those people who support New Age movement and no different from people who practice scientology WTF.
It's ok if you don't feel the appropriate resonance at this point of time. Everyone's journey and path is different. I don't follow or belong to any particular group. I'm here just to help those meant to remember the Truth of Life, which can be found in bits and pieces in various levels of understandings throughout civilisation. Man's intentional and unintentional writings, descriptions and stories have made it extremely difficult for the world to remember or understand the real truths anymore.
Individuals whom I'm meant to cross paths with, on Earth in this lifetime, will somehow intuitively know my role in their lifeplans, and why they've been seeking the Truth of Life.
I just want to comment: why are labels and names like "New Age" and the various religious organisations' names so important to Man? By attaching certain assumptions to fixed names or labels, we're subconsciously preventing one's experiences and consciousness from developing fully, as the mind automatically blocks and rejects truths when the decision to reject has already been made beforehand prior to real experiences.
People assume by default that certain groups or labels must mean a fixed set of characteristics 100%, no less, and continue to fight over each and everyone of those characteristics since time immemorial. Which is why people find it so difficult to see eye to eye, and live alongside each other peacefully.
In any case, you should just follow your heart, and let Nature take its course. :)
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
Facebook Group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=227006050892
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:Your issue is about morality, I simply think that it remains an evolutionary imperitive that helped us to survive in a community, nothing more
My issue is not with morality per say.
It's with you. The weak athiest. The ones who claim to be free but are as bound as any religion.
Science has allowed us power over nature, we have the will and power to change nature and to change OUR nature. We, and we alone are the arbiters of our values and imperatives now.
True survival is not merely existing by your instincts, what different are you from an ignorant worm then? It is to be free of the slave mentalities that nature and soceity puts in you, and realize your potential and will to power.
Yet here you are trying to argue for it, something that binds you.
Being a human being is something to be overcome to be an Übermensch.
"All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment…"
Friedrich Nietzsche
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
I think tat is a discrepancy between wat u observed and wat I observed from society.
Morals doesn't have to come from religion. There is general law and order, as u can see in most developed civilisation. People generally do not go about performing serious anti social behavior such as killing or raping. Most people have morals, including non religious people. And people classify good people, as people who perform good activities as a group while bad people, as people who performed group segregating activities. Tat is good and bad, not just power or powerless. We r not following morals blindly. We follow because we understand the importance of it. There r people who may be exploting the system but at least the general society as I observed is still full of people with morals.
Tat is basically it. U talk about power etc, it is just theory at best. As said before, u should believe in something more credible, and knowing the truth is more important than believing in a sooth sounding lie. I think dealing with the truth directly is better than dishing out opium to camouflage it
Lol, stupidissmart. You keep refering back to religion to make your weak points, don't you realize that this is just a distraction? It's like the man who is eating junk keep refering back to other junk to convince himself it is okay to eat junk.
You have no answer for Strong Atheism, because it is too strong for you.
Power is not a theory.
It is reality and law. Morality is theory and unprovable. Good and bad is theory and unprovable.
You can debate over what is moral or what is good and bad until the cows come home, but you cannot deny power. I put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, you die. Is that a theory? After that I put a gun to your mother's head and pull the trigger. She dies. Is that a theory?
What is all theory and nonsense is people debating over if such an action was good or bad. But I put a gun to their head to all those that say it is bad and pull the trigger as well. They can no long oppose me.
Is power a theory now?
Power cannot be denied any more then you can deny gravity. Power quite simply, is the ability to do what we intend to do and prevent others from doing what they want to do that you don't want them to do. Go look at all the men of power in history. Gengis Khan. Stalin. Mao. Does right and wrong matter to them? Do they still get their way in the end?
Is power a theory? Go look at the universe. There is ONLY power and the will to it. Incredible forces move objects at speeds that pack billions of nuclear bombs. Black holes eat stars. Supernovas anniliate entire systems. There is only power and the ability to do what you want.
There is no right and wrong, there is only power. Deny it and carry on being a slave. Being man is something to be overcome.
"All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment…"
Friedrich Nietzsche
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Lol, stupidissmart. You keep refering back to religion to make your weak points, don't you realize that this is just a distraction? It's like the man who is eating junk keep refering back to other junk to convince himself it is okay to eat junk.
You have no answer for Strong Atheism, because it is too strong for you.
Power is not a theory.
It is reality and law. Morality is theory and unprovable. Good and bad is theory and unprovable.
You can debate over what is moral or what is good and bad until the cows come home, but you cannot deny power. I put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, you die. Is that a theory? After that I put a gun to your mother's head and pull the trigger. She dies. Is that a theory?
What is all theory and nonsense is people debating over if such an action was good or bad. But I put a gun to their head to all those that say it is bad and pull the trigger as well. They can no long oppose me.
Is power a theory now?
Power cannot be denied any more then you can deny gravity. Power quite simply, is the ability to do what we intend to do and prevent others from doing what they want to do that you don't want them to do. Go look at all the men of power in history. Gengis Khan. Stalin. Mao. Does right and wrong matter to them? Do they still get their way in the end?
Is power a theory? Go look at the universe. There is ONLY power and the will to it. Incredible forces move objects at speeds that pack billions of nuclear bombs. Black holes eat stars. Supernovas anniliate entire systems. There is only power and the ability to do what you want.
There is no right and wrong, there is only power. Deny it and carry on being a slave. Being man is something to be overcome.
"All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment…"
Friedrich Nietzsche
Of course in the end it boils down to the man with the biggest gun, and the group with the most lives to spare.
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:My issue is not with morality per say.
It's with you. The weak athiest. The ones who claim to be free but are as bound as any religion.
Science has allowed us power over nature, we have the will and power to change nature and to change OUR nature. We, and we alone are the arbiters of our values and imperatives now.
True survival is not merely existing by your instincts, what different are you from an ignorant worm then? It is to be free of the slave mentalities that nature and soceity puts in you, and realize your potential and will to power.
Yet here you are trying to argue for it, something that binds you.
Being a human being is something to be overcome to be an Übermensch.
"All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment…"
Friedrich Nietzsche
I must say that you are not a "strong atheist" yourself, else like what you say above, you wouldn't be arguing with us now
Sure... the one with the biggest gun win. But then again, wat does tis really have anything to do with the discussion on morality ? In places with law and order, it is a fact tat it is difficult to experience having a gun pointing on your head. If u have power, u can make all christian rewrite the bible to suit however u like it, and they will propagate it for u. And so ? Lets just face it. We don't have a problem of morality in general. Power is absolute doesn't means there is no room for morality
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:I must say that you are not a "strong atheist" yourself, else like what you say above, you wouldn't be arguing with us now
One does not need to be a strong athiest to admire their will to power. At least unlike us the religious, and you the weak athiest. They are internally consistent. And the future of mankind if reality is truly as they have seen.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Sure... the one with the biggest gun win. But then again, wat does tis really have anything to do with the discussion on morality ? In places with law and order, it is a fact tat it is difficult to experience having a gun pointing on your head. If u have power, u can make all christian rewrite the bible to suit however u like it, and they will propagate it for u. And so ? Lets just face it. We don't have a problem of morality in general. Power is absolute doesn't means there is no room for morality
You are starting to see the light, but you still refuse to accept the conclusions.
Law and order are illusions. It is just a form of power placed on you by another entity. It is just another bigger gun to restrain you. There is no law except power. There is no criminal, just a rebel against the established power order.
It's not that there is no room for morality at all, it is that morality is an illusion. It does not exist.
Morality is a system of control that the naturally-evolved entity, society places on the individual to ensure it's own survival. It is society using a lie to impose it's POWER on the individual. By accepting this lie, and giving it room, one is surrendering oneself to an aspect of it's nature, and being enslaved by it.
One does not need to kill to have power, one can also keep others in a lie to have that power. Religion is one form, the new atheistic- society formed morality is another form. All are equally illusionary to keep people from realizing their potential.
Technology and intelligence has given us the ability to overcome. The superman overcomes. Nature must be overcome lest one remain bound to it, no more then the level of a reasoning beast (like you are). Morality is another part of old man's evolved nature that he must overcome if he truly intends to achieve his potential.
And so?
It is clear most of what we believe is a lie. What are we going to do about it. Still keep believing it?
There is no room for morality. It is irrelevant to reality. We who believe in it are internally inconsistent.
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:You are starting to see the light, but you still refuse to accept the conclusions.
Law and order are illusions. It is just a form of power placed on you by another entity. It is just another bigger gun to restrain you. There is no law except power. There is no criminal, just a rebel against the established power order.
It's not that there is no room for morality at all, it is that morality is an illusion. It does not exist.
Morality is a system of control that the naturally-evolved entity, society places on the individual to ensure it's own survival. It is society using a lie to impose it's POWER on the individual. By accepting this lie, and giving it room, one is surrendering oneself to an aspect of it's nature, and being enslaved by it.
One does not need to kill to have power, one can also keep others in a lie to have that power. Religion is one form, the new atheistic- society formed morality is another form. All are equally illusionary to keep people from realizing their potential.
Technology and intelligence has given us the ability to overcome. The superman overcomes. Nature must be overcome lest one remain bound to it, no more then the level of a reasoning beast (like you are). Morality is another part of old man's evolved nature that he must overcome if he truly intends to achieve his potential.
And so?
It is clear most of what we believe is a lie. What are we going to do about it. Still keep believing it?
There is no room for morality. It is irrelevant to reality. We who believe in it are internally inconsistent.
hey u write so much i have no clue what u r saying. can u summarise your views in unambiguous and concise manner.
let's say that the system of morality and religion is to curb the tyrannical side of the Nietzsche's Superman...which, to the point of narcissistic obsession..like Hitler in his seminal work "My Fight"...
there are such supermen in the moral/ religious/ cultists' circle as well....
these are the activists who rouse the majority against the weak minorities..using great oratory, anger, sympathies, affections of the majority etc...
in fact, Calhoun's doctrine of concurrent majority warned us of those who use the majority's, rousing them to anger in so-called unlimited democratic power to tyrannize the minority...this can happen anywhere on the political stage to even small group dynamics...surely even in the forum...be on guard of these people...
sometimes the majority can be wrong and tyrannical themselves....