Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:The atheists, God haters and those who think themselves Buddhist flock the forum to ruin this forum
dun victimise urself lar
religious taliban like u flock here to troll
god haters? why should anyone hate something that does not exists, I wonder. same goes for believing in something that does not exists.
Originally posted by Rooney9:god haters? why should anyone hate something that does not exists, I wonder. same goes for believing in something that does not exists.
I just find you have a lowly life from the couple of posts you made.Probably you need to find yourself awaken through your death bed.What you only see is just only a small portion of your life with a small heart whom run life based on your personal perceptive,pride,ego and knowlege.You are just like a bird cage inside a cage who never saw the world claiming how small it is.
Originally posted by Rooney9:god haters? why should anyone hate something that does not exists, I wonder. same goes for believing in something that does not exists.
how very true...................hating god and jesus is the same as hating Harry Potter and Sherlock Holmes............
Actually I am more interested in knowing what's so bad about religion, or good for that matter?
Indeed at the end of the day, what is good and bad? Are these not random concepts made up by man? Lion eats sheep, bad for sheep, good for lion. At the end of the day, there is no real reason why we should say that a thing is good or a thing is bad, such moralistic judgement comes from a religious way of thinking... even if you hate religion, one cannot say it's bad (or good) without revealing that they have a religious way of thinking.
Truly scientific and rational people will realize there is no morality in our universe. What truly matters is power, and the will to have it. Having notions of right and wrong and getting angry about religion are signs of weakness and indicative that you are still bound by it, even if you don't believe in it. Like a prisoner who wants to escape his jail, but is still bound by it.
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Actually I am more interested in knowing what's so bad about religion, or good for that matter?
Indeed at the end of the day, what is good and bad? Are these not random concepts made up by man? Lion eats sheep, bad for sheep, good for lion. At the end of the day, there is no real reason why we should say that a thing is good or a thing is bad, such moralistic judgement comes from a religious way of thinking... even if you hate religion, one cannot say it's bad (or good) without revealing that they have a religious way of thinking.
Truly scientific and rational people will realize there is no morality in our universe. What truly matters is power, and the will to have it. Having notions of right and wrong and getting angry about religion are signs of weakness and indicative that you are still bound by it, even if you don't believe in it. Like a prisoner who wants to escape his jail, but is still bound by it.
it is easy to differentiate what is good and what is bad. i am not referring to religion, i am referring to people because different people interpret bible differently. those that called other religions satanic and said they will be condemned to hell are bad, nothing good about it.
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Actually I am more interested in knowing what's so bad about religion, or good for that matter?
Indeed at the end of the day, what is good and bad? Are these not random concepts made up by man? Lion eats sheep, bad for sheep, good for lion. At the end of the day, there is no real reason why we should say that a thing is good or a thing is bad, such moralistic judgement comes from a religious way of thinking... even if you hate religion, one cannot say it's bad (or good) without revealing that they have a religious way of thinking.
Truly scientific and rational people will realize there is no morality in our universe. What truly matters is power, and the will to have it. Having notions of right and wrong and getting angry about religion are signs of weakness and indicative that you are still bound by it, even if you don't believe in it. Like a prisoner who wants to escape his jail, but is still bound by it.
For morality we go by the consensus of society. The bible does advocate slavery, but men now frown upon it. It shows that our values are not based on any religious ideas whatsoever, instead our interpretation of religious texts are based on the moral consensus of the time.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:For morality we go by the consensus of society. The bible does advocate slavery, but men now frown upon it. It shows that our values are not based on any religious ideas whatsoever, instead our interpretation of religious texts are based on the moral consensus of the time.
People went into slavery because of debt, but yet there was always hope of coming out of it in the shmitah year, one would go free to start again, but now adays, there is still slavery just wearing different clothes and the form of slavery consumes much more of our lives and we may never be free. You wonder why men don't frown upon financial slavery of the entire world, which is far more insidious and more damaging.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:For morality we go by the consensus of society. The bible does advocate slavery, but men now frown upon it. It shows that our values are not based on any religious ideas whatsoever, instead our interpretation of religious texts are based on the moral consensus of the time.
That does not really answer the question. If morality is simply the consensus of society, then minority opinions and positions are irrelevant. They are neither right or wrong, they are just opinions and the tyranny of the majority.
At the end of the day you are concluding what I pointed out: Morality is nothing more then the tyranny of the majority. Right or right is just a figment of the imagination. In fact to be bound by morality is to be slave to soceity, to not be free of the thing that enslaves all humans. Religion is just one expression of this. Morality is another.
Frederick Nietzsche states that there is no criminal, only the rebel against the norms of a society. Right and wrong do not exist, only power relationships. Soceity supresses the rebel not because he is wrong, but because he resists their power and influence.
The superman is above all this, the true superman has the power to do what and whatever he wants and choose his own morality and wants, free to think for his will. There is only one truth in the universe and that is power and the will to it.
In short, lets say a killer derives enjoyment from seeing people suffer and die, this is his creed, his code, his morality. If he can get this from your family, and has deviced such a way that he can escape the enforcement of law by society... such an action is not inherently wrong. In fact it is just because the only law in the universe is power and the will to it. He had to power to derive what he wanted from your family and avoid the repression of soceity, and thus it was his rightful reward.
In fact, Frederick Nietzche points out that religion is actually a minor problem... the REAL problem that prevents mankind from realizing it's own potential as supermen is this slave mentality towards imaginary neurotic notions such as morality and values that allows external systems to repress and control them.
And almost as if to prove his point once humanity seemingly "freed" itself from the grasp of religion in the enlightenment, the opressive code of secular humanity imposes itself as some standard on all men.
Is there not no law in the universe but power but the will to it?
That nothing is true, and everything is permitted?
Originally posted by Wacky Sung:I just find you have a lowly life from the couple of posts you made.Probably you need to find yourself awaken through your death bed.What you only see is just only a small portion of your life with a small heart whom run life based on your personal perceptive,pride,ego and knowlege.You are just like a bird cage inside a cage who never saw the world claiming how small it is.
why post something that direct to ur ownself? huh?
Originally posted by breytonhartge:People went into slavery because of debt, but yet there was always hope of coming out of it in the shmitah year, one would go free to start again, but now adays, there is still slavery just wearing different clothes and the form of slavery consumes much more of our lives and we may never be free. You wonder why men don't frown upon financial slavery of the entire world, which is far more insidious and more damaging.
Would u say that slavery is correct then?
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:In fact, Frederick Nietzche points out that religion is actually a minor problem... the REAL problem that prevents mankind from realizing it's own potential as supermen is this slave mentality towards imaginary neurotic notions such as morality and values that allows external systems to repress and control them.
And almost as if to prove his point once humanity seemingly "freed" itself from the grasp of religion in the enlightenment, the opressive code of secular humanity imposes itself as some standard on all men.
Is there not no law in the universe but power but the will to it?
That nothing is true, and everything is permitted?
Perhaps anything that you can get away with is permitted. Religion could very well be a false idea to add security for those who are weak. If one was helpless in a society, would one not be inclined to belive that they would triumph in the end in their afterlife? The code of the secular society is much better than a religious one in terms of flexibility. It can acknowledge change, but a religious one based on some ambiguous text cannot.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:The code of the secular society is much better than a religious one in terms of flexibility. It can acknowledge change, but a religious one based on some ambiguous text cannot.
Ah but better or worse is a value judgement. Where is this idea of "better" coming from? Certainly not from secular humanism.
At the end of the day people are weak because they allow external systems and ideas to control them. Secular humanism is not better then religion, it is just another prison. It is simply the new religion of the modern age, as blind and self-decieved as the old one. It is as much a false idea for those who are terrified by our universe and the fact that our lives have no real meaning.
But if it is false and has no relation to reality, why do we cling to it? Because we are still weak and slaves to systems of slave-thought. We are still not free, not daring to face reality. We are no different from those religious decieved if we claim that science validates our secular humanism, but yet do not allow science to carry us to it's logical conclusion... and that there is no real rational reason to believe in secular humanism.
People are still enslaved and opressed by secular humanist ideas and mantras of "individualism" "enlightnment" "freedom" which are all complete illusions. Constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is ultimately meaningless. In a cosmos that is unimaginably larger, and utterly uncaring of them.
The true superman rises above all this. There is no good, no evil, no better, no worse. He makes his own values as he sees fit.
Morality doesn't have to come from religion. It comes from living in a group. Even wolves and group animals have their own code of morals when living as a group. Men r group animals with group instinct too. Those actions tat promote living together as a group r good morals while actions tat caused the group to disperse or separate r bad morals. Using tat as a gauge, u can find it fits probably 90% of the secular laws (only those with religious links r not in it).
Tat is why no matter how different the various religions and political systems are, they come out with the basic way for a man to live as a group. In terms of reproduction, many tribes and religion have different views. But all still subscribe to the same principle of living in a group and reproduce for the next generation.
So wat is good and bad ? Good if it helps the people to live as a group. Tat is why abolishing slavery is good because it promotes fairness and stability to human society (group). Now from a religious point of view, why is slavery bad ? We r all slaves to god isn't it ?
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Morality doesn't have to come from religion. It comes from living in a group. Even wolves and group animals have their own code of morals when living as a group. Men r group animals with group instinct too. Those actions tat promote living together as a group r good morals while actions tat caused the group to disperse or separate r bad morals. Using tat as a gauge, u can find it fits probably 90% of the secular laws (only those with religious links r not in it).
Tat is why no matter how different the various religions and political systems are, they come out with the basic way for a man to live as a group. In terms of reproduction, many tribes and religion have different views. But all still subscribe to the same principle of living in a group and reproduce for the next generation.
So wat is good and bad ? Good if it helps the people to live as a group. Tat is why abolishing slavery is good because it promotes fairness and stability to human society (group). Now from a religious point of view, why is slavery bad ? We r all slaves to god isn't it ?
so from christians point of view, are we children or slaves of god? there is a whole world of difference here. if we are children, then why are we suffering in this midst. if we are slaves, then we are nothing but a play thing for god. thats the paradox here. ask god if he can create something he cant lift. if he cant, then he is not powerful. if he can, then he also isnt powerful either. therein lies the paradox of the concept. But I suppose christians are blind to this.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Morality doesn't have to come from religion. It comes from living in a group. Even wolves and group animals have their own code of morals when living as a group. Men r group animals with group instinct too. Those actions tat promote living together as a group r good morals while actions tat caused the group to disperse or separate r bad morals. Using tat as a gauge, u can find it fits probably 90% of the secular laws (only those with religious links r not in it).
Tat is why no matter how different the various religions and political systems are, they come out with the basic way for a man to live as a group. In terms of reproduction, many tribes and religion have different views. But all still subscribe to the same principle of living in a group and reproduce for the next generation.
So wat is good and bad ? Good if it helps the people to live as a group. Tat is why abolishing slavery is good because it promotes fairness and stability to human society (group). Now from a religious point of view, why is slavery bad ? We r all slaves to god isn't it ?
Dude, you are missing the point.
My point is not morality must come from religion.
My point is morality does not really matter. It's just another natural instinct that we now know the reason for. Why should we be slaves to it? Because our genes say so? There are alternative gene survival tactics that can do without such self-deception such as the need for morality and maximise our pleasure in our brief and finite lives. The perfect example would the the psycopath (which actually forms 2 percent of our population), which live to make the full use of others to enjoy life and are very sucessful as well. Society reacts to them by calling them insane and trying to repress them... but is what they do really wrong? Nope, it's just in conflict the the goals of the many. But most get away with it.
Is such an approach evil? There never was evil to begin with. The fact is most humans are weak that's why they need morality. The real supermen realize that they don't need this, and that the world is theirs to exploit. They see past the systems.
Originally posted by laurence82:why post something that direct to ur ownself? huh?
lol. is he a troll like agogoboy?
Not really... I feel morality is important if u still wanna live as a group. If u do not wanna live with other people at all and go to some distant mountains without any human interaction, there won't be much actions such as good or evil. U do not need to be superman here, but a hermit. In fact some animals who hunt or live alone, have no sense of morals at all and tat is okay since they don't live together.
Now u said there r psychopath tat made use of others to enjoy life etc... I think u got to be a bit specific here... how r they psychopath ? My understanding of pcyshopath r people with knife and kill around like the show psycho. Killing around is obviously anti social and thus r evil. If u talk about people who just wanna work hard, enjoy life and not break any code of living as a group, then it is perfectly okay. They r working, contributing to society, spending, contributing to society, he do not own slaves but pay people according to initial promise, so he is perfectly fine.
so from christians point of view, are we children or slaves of god? there is a whole world of difference here. if we are children, then why are we suffering in this midst. if we are slaves, then we are nothing but a play thing for god. t
If u read OT, definitely god is our master and he will kill u if he feels like it. Tis is really god's own description of himself in the bible
If u follow jesus, he himself had said many times tat god is our master and he could be a very cruel and unreasonable one. But nevertheless he is still our master and the only thing a slave should do it please him
If u follow the newer churches, or perhaps Paul, then they preach a different message and said god is all about love etc.
So depend on which part u wanna focus.
Originally posted by Rooney9:lol. is he a troll like agogoboy?
he is definitely is
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Ah but better or worse is a value judgement. Where is this idea of "better" coming from? Certainly not from secular humanism.
At the end of the day people are weak because they allow external systems and ideas to control them. Secular humanism is not better then religion, it is just another prison. It is simply the new religion of the modern age, as blind and self-decieved as the old one. It is as much a false idea for those who are terrified by our universe and the fact that our lives have no real meaning.But if it is false and has no relation to reality, why do we cling to it? Because we are still weak and slaves to systems of slave-thought. We are still not free, not daring to face reality. We are no different from those religious decieved if we claim that science validates our secular humanism, but yet do not allow science to carry us to it's logical conclusion... and that there is no real rational reason to believe in secular humanism.
People are still enslaved and opressed by secular humanist ideas and mantras of "individualism" "enlightnment" "freedom" which are all complete illusions. Constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is ultimately meaningless. In a cosmos that is unimaginably larger, and utterly uncaring of them.
The true superman rises above all this. There is no good, no evil, no better, no worse. He makes his own values as he sees fit.
Good or evil are just labels we give to behaviour that we deem sufficiently acceptable conforming to the societal norm. Values are just a set of behavioural attributes we deem should be followed. It at least reveals that our life may not have any predetermined meaning, unlike religion which may promise it falsely.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Not really... I feel morality is important if u still wanna live as a group. If u do not wanna live with other people at all and go to some distant mountains without any human interaction, there won't be much actions such as good or evil. U do not need to be superman here, but a hermit. In fact some animals who hunt or live alone, have no sense of morals at all and tat is okay since they don't live together.
Now u said there r psychopath tat made use of others to enjoy life etc... I think u got to be a bit specific here... how r they psychopath ? My understanding of pcyshopath r people with knife and kill around like the show psycho. Killing around is obviously anti social and thus r evil. If u talk about people who just wanna work hard, enjoy life and not break any code of living as a group, then it is perfectly okay. They r working, contributing to society, spending, contributing to society, he do not own slaves but pay people according to initial promise, so he is perfectly fine.
If u read OT, definitely god is our master and he will kill u if he feels like it. Tis is really god's own description of himself in the bible
If u follow jesus, he himself had said many times tat god is our master and he could be a very cruel and unreasonable one. But nevertheless he is still our master and the only thing a slave should do it please him
If u follow the newer churches, or perhaps Paul, then they preach a different message and said god is all about love etc.
So depend on which part u wanna focus.
Morality is not necessary if you want to live in a group and exploit it, the apperance of morality is all that is needed. I can appear to play by it's rules when it is to my advantage, and dump them when they are not to mine- as long as I have the power to implement my will.
It is the fools that believe that such a thing that we should still play fair with each other because it benefits soceity. The really sucessful people who realize that these things, like religion, is just another evolved behaviour that we can overcome to our own advantage.
And your understanding of psychopaths is insufficent. It is the failed psychopaths that are caught (the stupid ones). Psychopaths simply put, are the people who have seen through the illusion of human life and realize that morality is irrelevant. They can overcome empathy, and act only for their own gains, using soceity as and when they can. A recent study indicates that there are such people in our soceity, and they are extremely sucessful and are skilled and good at getting what they want.
Morality is just another tired old religion, it enslaves and defeats people. It prevents them from realizing their true potential and attaining the power the deserve. It is just like religion, except without the promises.
The reason why we cling to it is because people are weak and mass systems impose it on the slaves to keep them obedient and servant to soceity. But why should the strong, us who understand it bother with it? The truly strong are beyond such meaningless notions of good and evil. The world is theirs to take.
It is stupidity to contribute to soceity under some code of morality. You only need to pretend to contribute what you need and get the maximum return from it. Let the suckers maintain their "morality" and do the work for you. They are slaves to the system. You are the truly free.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:Good or evil are just labels we give to behaviour that we deem sufficiently acceptable conforming to the societal norm. Values are just a set of behavioural attributes we deem should be followed. It at least reveals that our life may not have any predetermined meaning, unlike religion which may promise it falsely.
If you say that, why don't you examine what lies behind a lot of our societal norms and values?
As Friedrich Nietzche has found out, one honking big slave mentality. Its effects are no different from religion. It's simply religion without the opiate.
The weak, nominal, unexceptional athiest sheds the supersitions of religion but still clings to the systems of values and morality that had been bred into him from young from a soceity that teaches him all this when he is too weak to question it, attempting to defend them as if they had any real purpose in a universe in which there is only power, and the will to it. He is no different from the superstitious religious believer, choosing to base his thinking and behaviour in some arbitrary system that enslaves him. He who thinks he sheds religion and is forging his own "ethics and morality" has not shed it at all, he has just given them another name and they still control him.
If anything he is a more pitiful creature. At the very least religion offers an opiate to the lie that it is. The unexceptional athiest that still clings to morality has all the trappings of the slave mentality but he lacks the opiates to dull his senses and still chooses to believe in the lie and spends his power uselessly trying to defend and establish even more systemsof self-control.
The true, exceptional and real athiest realizes that all living things aspire to power, and that there is no law in the universe but how to get power. He makes his own values and laws unhindered by the slave mentality. He is truly free.
Originally posted by Wacky Sung:I just find you have a lowly life from the couple of posts you made.Probably you need to find yourself awaken through your death bed.What you only see is just only a small portion of your life with a small heart whom run life based on your personal perceptive,pride,ego and knowlege.You are just like a bird cage inside a cage who never saw the world claiming how small it is.
You are the only one with a lowly life. Why wait for death when you have a life to live? You really are a frog in a well.
All I wanna say is tat morality does not have to come about from religion but from living as a group . I guess in a certain sense u agree with tat statement
For secular society, they have something called law and tat is how they enforce it to everybody to follow certain basic social living. If u talk about people abusing the system and exploiting the people, this happens to religious organisations as well.