Originally posted by reservistsianz:lazy to argue about evolution...
However it is sad tat people read one sided and reject established science tat spans many fields just because a book contradicts it. It has clouded their judgement and their only source of belief comes from faith, not science or logic now. If one day their religion says cancer is false and come out with many one sided stories, they will completely believe them and go to faith healing instead. Since they have reached such a state, there is nothing left to say liao
Agreed. Christians nowadays are getting more and more narrow minded, go youtube and search. Those american christians are so stupid that they even made a video saying that the H1N1 SWINE FLU vaccine is by SATAN. WTF? How superstitious and STUPID. And then they also have many ridiculous assumptions, ranging from Obama being the antichrist to the world's government working together trying to exterminate 90% of mankind. That is stupidity, but I am out of their shit now anyways.
Originally posted by Larryteo:Agreed. Christians nowadays are getting more and more narrow minded, go youtube and search. Those american christians are so stupid that they even made a video saying that the H1N1 SWINE FLU vaccine is by SATAN. WTF? How superstitious and STUPID. And then they also have many ridiculous assumptions, ranging from Obama being the antichrist to the world's government working together trying to exterminate 90% of mankind. That is stupidity, but I am out of their shit now anyways.
Recently there was an evangelist called Pat Robertson saying the Haiti earthquake was because they made a pact with the devil to be free of French colonisation.
Originally posted by reservistsianz:lazy to argue about evolution...
However it is sad tat people read one sided and reject established science tat spans many fields just because a book contradicts it. It has clouded their judgement and their only source of belief comes from faith, not science or logic now. If one day their religion says cancer is false and come out with many one sided stories, they will completely believe them and go to faith healing instead. Since they have reached such a state, there is nothing left to say liao
Even if one day evolution is proven false, it doesn't make creation the automatic right answer. If one accepts creationism, it no more proves the existence of yahweh than it does the deities pan gu and nu wa in the previous posts.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:Recently there was an evangelist called Pat Robertson saying the Haiti earthquake was because they made a pact with the devil to be free of French colonisation.
HAH. What stupidity and superstition.
Dont get me started here guys.
Originally posted by BadzMaro:Dont get me started here guys.
Go ahead. You have yet to answer the shortcomings of the bible and it's contradictions with reality.
Originally posted by Larryteo:Go ahead. You have yet to answer the shortcomings of the bible and it's contradictions with reality.
Looks like u have spent little effort reading the posts.
Using the Bible, reason ,science and logic has obviously failed on you.
So i shall start with your level of comprehension and understanding of science first.
So tell me, what level of understanding do you know between quantumn physics and the big bang theory
Next , Darwinian's evolutionary theory and its relevance to Intelligent Design leading to Genetics and modern biology.
Next, do you really want to find the truth ? Is it not logical to be open-minded in the discovery of the truth from both perspectives ?
So easy to condemn all Christians as extremely stupid and absurdly superstitious.
Anyways, ur flip flopping about jumping from fence to fence is not serving urself any better.
Maybe u should just stop being so stupid n quick to deny one and adopt another as fast as u change ur undies.
The main problem with both these objections is that the skeptic assumes Christianity to be false a priori. In other words, they are coming from an anti-Christian bias and then trying to muster support for their position. But this is neither fair nor rational. A sincere seeker of truth would look for just that - truth. We all have biases and we all start examining truth-claims leaning in one direction or another. But if we're honest, we will study all positions with an open mind until they have proven themselves to be not true.
The most reasonable stance to take on any position is the one that is true. If the Bible records history accurately and it portrays Jesus' life, death and resurrection as history, then it follows that Christianity is true. If Christianity is true it becomes the only rational position to hold. In rejecting Christianity out of hand, one runs the risk of rejecting the truth - and to reject the truth is the most illogical thing someone could do.
Originally posted by BadzMaro:The main problem with both these objections is that the skeptic assumes Christianity to be false a priori. In other words, they are coming from an anti-Christian bias and then trying to muster support for their position. But this is neither fair nor rational. A sincere seeker of truth would look for just that - truth. We all have biases and we all start examining truth-claims leaning in one direction or another. But if we're honest, we will study all positions with an open mind until they have proven themselves to be not true.
The most reasonable stance to take on any position is the one that is true. If the Bible records history accurately and it portrays Jesus' life, death and resurrection as history, then it follows that Christianity is true. If Christianity is true it becomes the only rational position to hold. In rejecting Christianity out of hand, one runs the risk of rejecting the truth - and to reject the truth is the most illogical thing someone could do.
Gimme absolute proof that Jesus did ressurect, not from the bible, and not from some source that gives ''logic''.
The main problem with both these objections is that the skeptic assumes Christianity to be false a priori. In other words, they are coming from an anti-Christian bias and then trying to muster support for their position.
Let me ask u instead. Do u treat Nu Wa or Pang Gu story seriously and try to base facts around these stories ? Did science treat Zeus or Apollo seriously ? All the people who believed in them swear it is true but so wat ? People believe in all the rubbish in tis world. Science is fair. All these stories doesn't make sense to a non believer. It is not verifiable. It is fantasy. there r 1001 fantasy stories around. How do u want science to treat all these stories ?
Science is simple. Everything is false unless proven true. If u want science to accept it. Prove it.
Sigh....... which religion is the truth ? all the religion claim that they are the truth. how to choose ? on earth, money is the truth but after life, what is the truth ? i guess everyone has to make a decision and live with the decision. if it is not the truth, then no one is to be blamed except oneself. i must choose carefully.
just believe in something tat is proven (science). If it is never proven, it probably means it is never true. Why must have religion ? Because u fear death ?
Originally posted by reservistsianz:just believe in something tat is proven (science). If it is never proven, it probably means it is never true. Why must have religion ? Because u fear death ?
but i strongly believe in after life because i experienced spirits when my close relatives passed away. i did not see them but i heard them. many people experienced it not just me.
You can choose any religion but don't go into the abrahamic ones. All of them so full of delusion and brain-washing books.
Originally posted by Larryteo:Gimme absolute proof that Jesus did ressurect, not from the bible, and not from some source that gives ''logic''.
Since you asked, i shall cut the swoon, hallucination, myth-making,conspiracy and Christianity critique down to size n give u the basic low down for your level of comprehension, based on your... inability to accept possiblities. U claim science like reservistsianz, who can only comprehend, simplicity. Claiming science is "simple" , and the Nu Wa Pang Gu story, cant even be compared the its relativity with the Bible and current progression of modern science n its theology.
Larry, to answer your point, you study history ? How much of your current knowledge derives from history? History is not an exact science. It does not yield absolute certainty like mathematics.This is true,
BUT why would you note that fact now and not when you speak of Caesar or Luther or George Washington? History is not exact, but it is sufficient. No one doubts that Caesar crossed the Rubicon; why do many doubt that Jesus rose from the dead? The evidence for the latter is much better than for the former.
Now, i am sure u will say u can't trust documents. Paper proves nothing. Anything can be forged. Well,
This is simply ignorance. Not trusting documents is like not trusting telescopes. Paper evidence suffices for most of what we believe; why should it suddenly become suspect here?
By analogy with any other historical event, the resurrection has eminently credible evidence behind it. To disbelieve it, you must deliberately make an exception to the rules you use everywhere else in history. Now why would someone want to do that?
And as the science = prove it. So what the hell is science doing now.Why cant u guys entertain the idea of science and religion together. Is Pang Gu credible ? Supported by what ? Not even historical data, and what facts ? Why would science always compare it to the Bible ? Even the proofs you have now are not totally infallible.
Science is not there to PROVE, it is to find out WHY, to EXPLAIN. They are not to discern what is true and false. Its not even thier doman. It is the Theologists. You chuck an apple and it falls to the gound, scientist dont ask whether it is true or false, they Try to FIND out WHY.. to EXPLAIN. How long did it take them just to explain the theory of gravity. Are you a major in science and theology ? I highly doubt it, because u dont even understand the relevance of science and religion. Steven Hawkings wouldve bitch slap you. Science = Proof. So simple ? If that were true, then what u are saying is false, unless its proven true, right ? U see your problem here.. u have not even read the bible then how can u compare it science and theology ?
And please answer with more substance rather then a few cheap sentences, entertain me. I am also here to find answers and the truth, and so far... NOTHING from any of yous in EH has come up with something that my eyes will go O.O OoOOoH... wow... such substance , thought , facts and logical reason, complete with amazing eye boggling results by the experts in thier field. Have u even read the Bible before ? So.. take ur time to discern this post guys. Feel free to attack it left right up down. And dont give me baby answers please. I am already talking in the simplest of substance and form here.
I ask myself this question as i am typing this.. WHY... am i trying to talk sense to these people ? Maybe i should check with science to have it explain, why there are people, that just need to SEE to believe. Is it because of thier Psychological make up? Were they abused ? Are they those that are not trusting , and always disbelieve truth as opposed to those that rather risk believing a lie then disbelieving a truth?
So, have a good think and dont be stupid and flip flop around. Like i said again, you guys,most of the time dont even know what you are talking about yourselves.
Originally posted by Larryteo:You can choose any religion but don't go into the abrahamic ones. All of them so full of delusion and brain-washing books.
Christianity, complete with adoration of Christ as God, obedience to Christ as Lord, dependence on Christ as Savior, humble confession of sin and a serious effort to live Christ's life of self-sacrifice, detachment from the world, righteousness, holiness and purity of thought, word and deed.
So.. these delusion n brain-washing books is what ? A decay to moral society ? Want to use Science to explain ur thoughts for someome like you in a Psychologists perspective ?
I am sure u will deny flat out when the results come out. So please, dont be fool. Instead, try to be more open minded to the possibilities.. at least. Or else u are no different then frog stuck in the well.
i think there is something wrong with your understanding of science and your religion. Science is finding wat is true. An apple fall to the ground when released, TRUE. It falls at an acceleration of approximately 9.81ms^2. TRUE. Pure water freeze at 0 degree celsius. TRUE. The computer screen tat stares at your face now is due to the ability of science to find out facts and men can make use of them to come out with engineering marvels. TRUE. Who says science can't find out the truth ?All the stated above facts r truths.
Now for your book, u claim it is true and it is history. Fact is, no historian record jesus except his disciple (who r not historian). Fact is, no evidence is found from Noah's ark. Fact is, no egytian record history where the red sea split or mosess' miracles. Fact is, no one record the many dead people walking on the street when jesus died tat day. Fact is, despite all the miracles he did, no one except its believer ever record any of his deeds. Fact is, no ruins of tower of babel is ever found. Fact is, it is not considered history because all the fantasy material it claims is never verified by a true independent third party historian (there r some bogus ones fom your creationist website, I am sure)
And one more thing. No one stupidly believe everything history written as well. A lot of figures of casualties r stated as exaggerated and to be taken with a pinch of salt. Even nowsaday Japan and China could fight over the nature of Nanjing Massacre. People do doubt history as well. More so if it doesn't make sense and it is fantastic
Now u ask people to believe history and accounts. However pang gu is also history. Nu wa, zeus, apollo, shiva, buddha bla bla bla are all based on accounts of people who claim it is history. So they r all real ? Pang Gu is the god tat create the world but he die. So tat means god died ? These stories contradicts each other ! And they have the same weight as your book. Why do u say pang gu is not true but jesus is ? U also do not believe in "documents" or "history". U rejected hundred and thousands of "history documents" as well. We just reject one more "history document" call the bible. Is tat so hard to understand ?
Originally posted by reservistsianz:i think there is something wrong with your understanding of science and your religion. Science is finding wat is true. An apple fall to the ground when released, TRUE. It falls at an acceleration of approximately 9.81ms^2. TRUE. Pure water freeze at 0 degree celsius. TRUE. The computer screen tat stares at your face now is due to the ability of science to find out facts and men can make use of them to come out with engineering marvels. TRUE. Who says science can't find out the truth ?All the stated above facts r truths.
Now for your book, u claim it is true and it is history. Fact is, no historian record jesus except his disciple (who r not historian). Fact is, no evidence is found from Noah's ark. Fact is, no egytian record history where the red sea split or mosess' miracles. Fact is, no one record the many dead people walking on the street when jesus died tat day. Fact is, despite all the miracles he did, no one except its believer ever record any of his deeds. Fact is, no ruins of tower of babel is ever found. Fact is, it is not considered history because all the fantasy material it claims is never verified by a true independent third party historian (there r some bogus ones fom your creationist website, I am sure)
And one more thing. No one stupidly believe everything history written as well. A lot of figures of casualties r stated as exaggerated and to be taken with a pinch of salt. Even nowsaday Japan and China could fight over the nature of Nanjing Massacre. People do doubt history as well. More so if it doesn't make sense and it is fantastic
Now u ask people to believe history and accounts. However pang gu is also history. Nu wa, zeus, apollo, shiva, buddha bla bla bla are all based on accounts of people who claim it is history. So they r all real ? Pang Gu is the god tat create the world but he die. So tat means god died ? These stories contradicts each other ! And they have the same weight as your book. Why do u say pang gu is not true but jesus is ? U also do not believe in "documents" or "history". U rejected hundred and thousands of "history documents" as well. We just reject one more "history document" call the bible. Is tat so hard to understand ?
What u talking about ? Science is the search of the understanding of the mysteries of the universe. Black hole happens, it exists, but HOW does a black hole do ? Finding WHY.. Whats the mechanics behind it
We ALL know water freezes, its true, but Science EXPLAINS it .. science dont PROVE it.. it EXPLAINS why the apple goes up, and must come down... we ALL know AIR exist.. cant feel smell .. but.. it exists. No indication that air exist in our naked eye, cant see cant touch.. but science.. EXPLAINS it. WHY we breathe it.
Sigh.. Noah's Ark.. <-- if u keep an open mind, u will notice that there IS a possibility until the full investigations are done and concluded. If scientists are not sure, how can u conclude with utmost certainty ?
Red Sea <--- Egypt NEVER denied nor affirmed. What does that say ?
No Tower of Babel found YET.. doesnt mean it doesnt exists ? Conjecture. It once again proves ur mind is totally closed and not open-minded for the possibilities. Psychology will explain your state of mind as... someone of truly lack of faith. Not much is expected out of it until one sees it to believe.
Alot of FIGURES in ur history is in dispute. SURE.. but u noticed, its a subject of contention. Once again, history will be investigated, sooner or later, the numbers will arrive to its conclusion. Why so skeptical ?Why can u stand in the middle ground n look at both sides and say 'hmmm... equally true and false under the circumstances and situation' but there is always truth right ? And since there is truth , isnt there a chance that it may be the ultimate truth ?
Pang Gu and the likes. those days people believe. I just said the Bible was true. If u want to reject, its fine. But to reject the Bible totally is to reject that part of the history that is true. That means U have to reject all history right ?
I think u still is confused wat is science and wat is truth and fact. Truth means something is correct, not wrong. Science says tat gravity on earth is approximately 9.81. Tat is a fact and a truth. U want to say gravity is not 9,81 on earth ? Tat figure is a lie ? If u cannot refute tis, u cannot claim science cannot arrive upon truth. Wat is your definition of truth ? Just answer tis question. Gravity on earth is 9.81, true or false. If u say it is true, then science do states truth
Splitting of the red sea never recorded ? It implies such event never happen. They never deny or affirm pang gu too. So pang gu is true to egytians ? They never affirm or deny invisible unicorn, UFO, noch ness monster, homer simpson or Jedi knights as well. If they never mention, people tend to beleiev it never happen. No tower of babel, noah's ark, records of red sea bla bla bla probably give thousands of possible means to verify the bible is true. Nobody can do tat for even one evidence. Wat picture did it portray ? I can claim pang gu exists too. U cannot prove I am wrong. So u tend to believe in it then ?
Now comes to bible. It is not classified as history. It is never verified. Even history could be wrong. There r many things which r lies and fairytales in tis world. So how do u come to the conclusion the bible is true ? Because the bible say he is true ?
I am confused ? Do you even understand the concept ? Do you even understand.. the word understand ? Science is not there to prove whether something exists or not, it doesnt have to prove gravity exists,it explains, what its composed of. Unravelling the mysteries of the universe. Science... IS... basically the science in explaining the reasons why things work and try to replicate it. We want to know WHY. Can u grasp the simple concept ? Why cant u understand.. this simple concept ?
Gravity exist, which is truth, the truth of the apple falling down is already the truth WHY it falls down is the question.. we know that since the beginning of time... it is ONLY THE TRUTH WHAT GRAVITY REPRESENTS ON THIS PLANET. DO U UNDERSTAND ?
The Egyptians and Pang gu, Moses was historically recorded, Ramses HIMSELF was there, even in his records, he spoke of it, the government until today did not deny NOR affirm. Egypt + Moses + Ramses = Relevant. Pang Gu NOT relevant = Chinese. Do you understand ?
U can claim pang gu exists, if i cannot prove u are wrong, then there is a possiblity that u are right. U see.. thats the difference between me n u, i believe in the possibilities. AN OPEN MIND.
Bible... with the middle east history, IS relevant history. Its recorded history documented. Lets say history may be wrong, but i still keep n open mind about it and its discoveries. We are not even certain yet that it is totally wrong, then how can i deny that it is right ?
Its true because i say so. lol. But seriously... like i said again, the Bible, taken with it historically has relevance again. Have YOU finished reading the bible ? Yes or no ? Simple question.
Science explains the natural phenomenon we see. And by the meaning of explanation, it meant establishing facts and truth. It had came out with many truths about the world, like gravity, its value, momentum and many other phenomenons. These r truths and facts. Science can tell us wat is true and not true.It is not only about finding how it works and replicating it (tat is more of engineering). It is about understanding the world and environment around us. And in doing so, tell us facts and truth of tis world. Without science, the word gravity doesn't exist
U remember your earlier statement. Egypt NEVER denied nor affirmed-> red sea
Wat does tat say. If they never record it, it probably means it never exist. If never deny and affirm is sign of positiveness, then tales of pang gu etc is also positively proven by egytians history, which obviously is a wrong conclusion.
Now on the part of open mind, let me ask why do u close your mind to other religion ? Do u take halal food, become vegetarian, pray with incense ? Why not ? If u keep an open mind, their words r possibly true too and u do want to go to heaven isn't it ?
And finally, u say tat u believe bible is true because u say so. Is okay u know. I think tat is a very frank answer. U believe without any good reason. For me, I need more convincing and more evidence before I believe something.
phd in action! Solid!
Science... explains.. the mysteries of the universe........ gravity do no disappear if it is not proven. Its not based on the NEED for truth. They are theories and theories can be right and can be proven wrong like newtonian laws that only works on earth. U dont call it the FACT of Gravity..U never hear Scientists call theory.. the truth right ?
If we come down to Egypt, you have to understand the political makeup of the country... sigh... but just to answer ur hypothetical question to my statement, i believe it is wrong, even with no affirmnation nor denial, is becasue, using my current knowledge of science, reasoning, logic and the tale of pang gu, is way more skeptical then that of the case of the Red sea. I hope u understand what i mean now.
Yes i beieve without good reason because it is called faith. Something you dont understand. Its the concept of having that faith.
U need more convincing and evidence, fair enough. Thats why u ask, u make a statement, you question the validity, i bring forth another statement, compare, you accept or not, or i accept or not, is at our discretion to disseminate this information in the future as our experience in our life journey continues. Having properly informed, is better then not being informed at all. Like i take your thoughts and try to understand why u think the way u do.
Originally posted by BadzMaro:Science... explains.. the mysteries of the universe........ gravity do no disappear if it is not proven. Its not based on the NEED for truth. They are theories and theories can be right and can be proven wrong like newtonian laws that only works on earth. U dont call it the FACT of Gravity..U never hear Scientists call theory.. the truth right ?
If we come down to Egypt, you have to understand the political makeup of the country... sigh... but just to answer ur hypothetical question to my statement, i believe it is wrong, even with no affirmnation nor denial, is becasue, using my current knowledge of science, reasoning, logic and the tale of pang gu, is way more skeptical then that of the case of the Red sea. I hope u understand what i mean now.
Yes i beieve without good reason because it is called faith. Something you dont understand. Its the concept of having that faith.
U need more convincing and evidence, fair enough. Thats why u ask, u make a statement, you question the validity, i bring forth another statement, compare, you accept or not, or i accept or not, is at our discretion to disseminate this information in the future as our experience in our life journey continues. Having properly informed, is better then not being informed at all. Like i take your thoughts and try to understand why u think the way u do.
You do realise that the meaning of the word ''THEORY'' in science doesnt really mean the word itself right? The word THEORY in science means something that has sufficient proof and evidence in Science. And if Creationism were really so reliable, I would be seeing creationists winning debates against evolutionists and not the other way round =)
Originally posted by Larryteo:You do realise that the meaning of the word ''THEORY'' in science doesnt really mean the word itself right? The word THEORY in science means something that has sufficient proof and evidence in Science. And if Creationism were really so reliable, I would be seeing creationists winning debates against evolutionists and not the other way round =)
Do you even really know what you are talking about Larryteo ? But its not TRUTH. Do u understand what i mean. We are talking about the domain and purpose of science. Its not about winning debates. Its about the quest for seeking the truth. Its not about winning or losing. In my view, both ought to be side by side winning it.
Please dont make yourself look any dumber and more stupid. Its already bad enough i am trying to explain the SIMPLE concept of science. Are you a scientist ? Go ask your scientist friends. I am talking about major graduates. Go ask ur physicist friend what is Science. Please. Dont take my word. Go and make ask yourself for credible seeable evidence, maby he will even start to draw graphs and formulate you the answer so u may comprehend.