Originally posted by dadeadman1337:Faith has to be unproven, else it would cease to be called as such. However my question is that if god is truly real, why would a god seek to be behind the guise of "faith" rather than logic and reason? The christians believe that anyone who disbelieves in their god would go to hell. If God was real, why would he aim to provide humans access to logic and reasoning only to tell them to abandon it for heaven? It seems logically contradictory. You stated well that god is for the weak and helpless, I think it does provide some sort of hope, but that doesn't justify the cause for god's existence which remains my primary argument.
As for your further paragraphs I believe my previous posts have enacted a worthy response (for other forumers following), why does god have to somehow come down and die when he can just forgive?
many people ask why Yahweh would have so many requirements of us... yet many do not stop to think, we live on the earth with its laws and regulations, we are expected to behave a certain way according to the laws and customs of each country, and if one needs to present oneself before a king, we do not just walk in unannounced, in times past, this could be cause for loosing your head.
so why the rituals and why the blood? Because Yahweh has prescribed for us how we should come to Him, we are visiting with the King, so should we not follow the correct procedure? it is what He has required of us to do. The blood is not just for salvation, redemption and restoration, there is also the sanctification and justification so that we may come into the presence of Yahweh.
Yahweh has set down rulings and laws and the way we have to do things, what confidence can we have then in a G_d who is fickle and changeable as the weather? Therefore because He has required certain things of us to be cleansed and to be made pure, He himself had to give us the example, according to His prescribed practice so that we may have the confidence in Him. He can forgive, but without the blood, the angel of death will not passover us. Hence the required sacrifice once and for all to defeat sin and death, this though not for now, but for the world to come.
whether you can or cannot justify the cause for His existence, He still is. None of us can change that fact.
Originally posted by Dreamwerkz:Abraham fought in war & killed many in the battle of Sodom. He also slept with his maid, Hagga & Hagga bored him a son named Ishmael. He also lied twice & gave up his own wife to evil kings twice.
Jacob stole the 1st born blessing from Esau.
David decapitated a Philistine soldier named Goliath. He also had an affair with Bathsheba, wife of Uriah, one of his generals & sent Uriah to die in war.
Solomon became corrupted with his wisdom, married foreign brides & built temples for their foreign gods.
Moses killed an Egyptian & went into hiding for 40 years, ended up to be a stutterer before God used him to bring His people out of Egypt, drowning a whole army of Egyption soldiers in the Red Sea.
Samson killed a whole army of Philistine soldiers with a donkey's jaw.
Actually there is quite alot of sex & violence in the Bible. But there is something which meets more than the eye which brings revelations to believers.
Its Hagar.
Yaakov did not steal the birthright from Esau, if you are able to understand and read hebrew, you will read it very differently, it was actually Yaakov that was supposed to be the first born and it was Esau who tried to steal the birthright and destroy Yaakov at the same time.In hebrew, when the passage in the Tenakh describes the meeting of Esau and Yaakov after Yaakov had Rivkah and Leah, there are six dots above the description of the word in hebrew for kiss, meaning that Esau wanted to bite Yaakov and it was not as brotherly a kiss as it would seem in english.
Originally posted by Dreamwerkz:That is the reason why not everyone is a Christian. It is a matter of personal choice. Faith is something which is not seen yet believed. Just like how people believes in electricity but it is something not seen. For the visible is temporal but the invisible is eternal. For the atheist, they can say that those who believe in God are weak minded but Christians say that for they weak, their God is their strength. Christianity is for those who are weak & helpless. It is not for those who are strong & mighty in their own strength & wisdom.
It is about a God who accepts you no matter who you are & what you did. It is about a God who came as Man to know your pains & to pay for your sins so that He can have your curses & you can have His blessings. His finished work trancends time so that He would only have to die once & rest on His Father's right hand after His work is completed. You may ask how many Gods are there in Christianity. I can say it is One but the One is the Triune God. The Son, the Father & the Spirit. Just like me, I am the son, the father & the husband. For the Israelites call Him "Elohim", which is in plural whereas ,"Eloha" is in singular. Eloha is used in other faiths in other languages.
About the Blood issue,what I have stated is just the revelations mentioned in the Bible. Extracted from the book of Exodus. The eve of the passover when Moses brought his people out from Egypt & the people of Israel ate the passover lamb. God sent the angel of death to bring judgement on the Eygptians. For the angel of death did not see the good deeds of the Israelites but the blood of the Lamb on the door post & passed over them. For they believed in the blood & ate the Lamb for their healing from all the inflictions which the Eygptions gave them. You can say that it is written by Man. But at the end of the day it is about the individual choice. As for me, I believe.
Still the blessings will not come until there is obedience to Torah, where else do you find the blessings? If you want to claim the blessings, you have to take the responsibility of following Torah, without which you will most definitely get the curses.
Yahweh is Echad, one, the idea and nature of a triune god does not exist in the bible.
There is no where mentioned in the bible that the Ruach, Yahweh and Yeshua are one. It is only mentioned that Yahweh and Yeshua are one.
There is more to the blood than meets the eye but the naunces will be lost to the traditional christian believer unless you understand the temple and the temple sacrifices.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:Faith has to be unproven, else it would cease to be called as such. However my question is that if god is truly real, why would a god seek to be behind the guise of "faith" rather than logic and reason? The christians believe that anyone who disbelieves in their god would go to hell. If God was real, why would he aim to provide humans access to logic and reasoning only to tell them to abandon it for heaven? It seems logically contradictory. You stated well that god is for the weak and helpless, I think it does provide some sort of hope, but that doesn't justify the cause for god's existence which remains my primary argument.
As for your further paragraphs I believe my previous posts have enacted a worthy response (for other forumers following), why does god have to somehow come down and die when he can just forgive?
Christians believes anyone who disbelieve in their God would go to Hell. I apologise to you if you ever had such tactless remarks by my fellow believers. But think with me for a moment & look around you. The human race is attacked by new viruses, natural disasters, economic crisis & it seems that those problems are getting from bad to worse recently. We don't need Hell to see all the sufferings. Just look around you.
The weak & the helpless believe in God so that they can have hope towards life. Don't you agree that life can be harsh & cruel? Faith is the strength for us to carrying on with life in the face of adversity because human life is more fragile than you think. You can say that faith may be just a part of our imagination. The end results is the attitude towards life. The human life is fragile & yet there are times miracles just sprout out of nowwhere. If not why most doctors choose not to reveal the truth to patients with terminal illnesses? Faith can be unproven very easily. But what is the gain? To prove whether a belief is right or wrong? A moment of victory in life?
Believers of different faiths have different ways to express their faiths. For Christians, the centre of the Christian faith is in a sinless yet powerful highest form of being giving up His life so that you can have His blessings & He can have your curses. Can you imagine it is something like a parent sacrificing an organ for his beloved child but this is something on a even greater scale. For the Bible says that if you as a imperfect parent knows how to give good things to your child how much does you Heavenly Father above? These is a great expression of love that the Greeks call it "Agape" The greatest expression of love where no human can achieve.
I agree that that is totally beyond any human logic. But can you tell me whether faith is logical or not? It may seem foolish to believe but I will rather choose believe than to face the harsh realities of life. Yes. This seems like an excuse to escape from problems but in the 1st place if you can solve all the problems on your own there is no need to believe. That is why Christianity is for the weak & helpless who has seen themselves coming to the end of the road. However, sometimes the end can be the beginning. You just need that streak of hope to carry on. It may not have to be Jesus. Human are created with freedom to choose, my God did not force anyone to choose Him although sometimes believers may have gone overboard. I chose Jesus because I see His goodness.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:many people ask why Yahweh would have so many requirements of us... yet many do not stop to think, we live on the earth with its laws and regulations, we are expected to behave a certain way according to the laws and customs of each country, and if one needs to present oneself before a king, we do not just walk in unannounced, in times past, this could be cause for loosing your head.
so why the rituals and why the blood? Because Yahweh has prescribed for us how we should come to Him, we are visiting with the King, so should we not follow the correct procedure? it is what He has required of us to do. The blood is not just for salvation, redemption and restoration, there is also the sanctification and justification so that we may come into the presence of Yahweh.
Yahweh has set down rulings and laws and the way we have to do things, what confidence can we have then in a G_d who is fickle and changeable as the weather? Therefore because He has required certain things of us to be cleansed and to be made pure, He himself had to give us the example, according to His prescribed practice so that we may have the confidence in Him. He can forgive, but without the blood, the angel of death will not passover us. Hence the required sacrifice once and for all to defeat sin and death, this though not for now, but for the world to come.
whether you can or cannot justify the cause for His existence, He still is. None of us can change that fact.
I strongly disagree with the last line, Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc would say the same of their god, your assertion has no bearing on the fact of the matter. As for what god prescribes, how do you know it is true? It is ultimately written by a man. Who can say what is "correct" and what is wrong? You choose to believe the bible, yet why do you ignore the orders to kill and plunder found in over 800 instances in the bible? As for jesus being an example, thousands upon millions of people die in wars in the past centuries, one man's death wouldn't make a difference in the eyes of god.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:I strongly disagree with the last line, Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc would say the same of their god, your assertion has no bearing on the fact of the matter. As for what god prescribes, how do you know it is true? It is ultimately written by a man. Who can say what is "correct" and what is wrong? You choose to believe the bible, yet why do you ignore the orders to kill and plunder found in over 800 instances in the bible? As for jesus being an example, thousands upon millions of people die in wars in the past centuries, one man's death wouldn't make a difference in the eyes of god.
in the natural kingdoms of the world, when there is an invasion or a war, the kings of those warring nations would give the order to plunder and destroy the other kingdoms. Likewise in the bible when the nation of Yisrael who are Yahweh's chosen go out against the rest of the kingdoms out there who worship other gods, the order will be to destroy and kill, would you leave your enemies alive knowing that they can you more harm later as evidenced by some of the kings who did not totally destroy the nations that they were sent against, these have lived to harass the nation of Yisrael till today.
you can accept that kings and rulers in the world today order to kill and destroy, but you cannot accept that Yahweh would command His people to do the same of the enemies of Yisrael?
hence I have already said you do not understand the rituals of the temple and the significance of them and the requirements that have been laid down by Hashem. Natural kings have their set requirements, why can't Elohim have them too? Thousands have died but thousands are not the perfect lamb.
to you the bible may just be some story book written by men... but to the nation of Yisrael, it is their history.
Originally posted by Dreamwerkz:Christians believes anyone who disbelieve in their God would go to Hell. I apologise to you if you ever had such tactless remarks by my fellow believers. But think with me for a moment & look around you. The human race is attacked by new viruses, natural disasters, economic crisis & it seems that those problems are getting from bad to worse recently. We don't need Hell to see all the sufferings. Just look around you.
The weak & the helpless believe in God so that they can have hope towards life. Don't you agree that life can be harsh & cruel? Faith is the strength for us to carrying on with life in the face of adversity because human life is more fragile than you think. You can say that faith may be just a part of our imagination. The end results is the attitude towards life. The human life is fragile & yet there are times miracles just sprout out of nowwhere. If not why most doctors choose not to reveal the truth to patients with terminal illnesses? Faith can be unproven very easily. But what is the gain? To prove whether a belief is right or wrong? A moment of victory in life?
Believers of different faiths have different ways to express their faiths. For Christians, the centre of the Christian faith is in a sinless yet powerful highest form of being giving up His life so that you can have His blessings & He can have your curses. Can you imagine it is something like a parent sacrificing an organ for his beloved child but this is something on a even greater scale. For the Bible says that if you as a imperfect parent knows how to give good things to your child how much does you Heavenly Father above? These is a great expression of love that the Greeks call it "Agape" The greatest expression of love where no human can achieve.
I agree that that is totally beyond any human logic. But can you tell me whether faith is logical or not? It may seem foolish to believe but I will rather choose believe than to face the harsh realities of life. Yes. This seems like an excuse to escape from problems but in the 1st place if you can solve all the problems on your own there is no need to believe. That is why Christianity is for the weak & helpless who has seen themselves coming to the end of the road. However, sometimes the end can be the beginning. You just need that streak of hope to carry on. It may not have to be Jesus. Human are created with freedom to choose, my God did not force anyone to choose Him although sometimes believers may have gone overboard. I chose Jesus because I see His goodness.
yet the jesus you claim to believe in is not the Yeshua that is described in the Brit Chadashah. they are very different people.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:in the natural kingdoms of the world, when there is an invasion or a war, the kings of those warring nations would give the order to plunder and destroy the other kingdoms. Likewise in the bible when the nation of Yisrael who are Yahweh's chosen go out against the rest of the kingdoms out there who worship other gods, the order will be to destroy and kill, would you leave your enemies alive knowing that they can you more harm later as evidenced by some of the kings who did not totally destroy the nations that they were sent against, these have lived to harass the nation of Yisrael till today.
you can accept that kings and rulers in the world today order to kill and destroy, but you cannot accept that Yahweh would command His people to do the same of the enemies of Yisrael?
hence I have already said you do not understand the rituals of the temple and the significance of them and the requirements that have been laid down by Hashem. Natural kings have their set requirements, why can't Elohim have them too? Thousands have died but thousands are not the perfect lamb.
to you the bible may just be some story book written by men... but to the nation of Yisrael, it is their history.
The conquerors went to war for wealth and power, assuming that god is omnibenevolent, no, it cannot be accepted that god would ask you to kill, much less so based on race or religion. If this god is real, why would he discriminate based on race considering that he "created" everyone? Judaism was not the first monotheistic religion. Kings have rituals to worship them because they are proud, capricious, arrogant. I don't think you would afix such labels to your god?
Just to add, your argument for the use of blood was circular. You believe it because you believe scripture is from god. However that fails to explain why god would require such thigns
Originally posted by KnowMyPower:Hey breyton/Catknight,
Judaism is coming back as the true scripture god intended. Every generation just like the torah days, evil nations and their pagan religions (christianity, baal, asteroth, greek myth, etc) will not stay long and His Laws and Will comes back to newer generations becuase the Law is everlasting and naturally logical.
Because WWII showed that the christians and muslim leaders know the rising of Judaism is a threat to them and thats why they use the war as a guise to exterminate them systematically.
But God's Promise prevailed as long as there is ONE righteous Jew.
This internet genearation where the hebrew scripture is open for all to see will be the finality of Christian NT and Quram.
The proof is in the text. There is nothing to discuss or intimidate like what you are doing now brey.
Seriously? Since when? :D Do you know that jews being persecuted have been prophesized in the christian version of the Bible??? And since when has Christians delibrately attacked Jews? Hitler you mean? But he was an atheist.
Even I, currently already a non believer of any religion knows more than you.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:The conquerors went to war for wealth and power, assuming that god is omnibenevolent, no, it cannot be accepted that god would ask you to kill, much less so based on race or religion. If this god is real, why would he discriminate based on race considering that he "created" everyone? Judaism was not the first monotheistic religion. Kings have rituals to worship them because they are proud, capricious, arrogant. I don't think you would afix such labels to your god?
read the bible is Yahweh omnibenevolent?
Deutoronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Exodus20:5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a (B)jealous God, (C)visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Yahweh has rituals for us to come to Him because the profane cannot mix with the Holy.You would not last a nanosecond if you approached Yahweh in your profance state.
Originally posted by Larryteo:Seriously? Since when? :D Do you know that jews being persecuted have been prophesized in the christian version of the Bible??? And since when has Christians delibrately attacked Jews? Hitler you mean? But he was an atheist.
Even I, currently already a non believer of any religion knows more than you.
Jews being persecuted was not prophesized in the christian version of the bible, it was already there from the start. christians have always been attacking Jews trying to convert them away from the faith that they hold in Yahweh with a pagan religion. The christian that was involved in the massacare of the Jewish people was Martin Luther who's anti-semitic writings influenced and gave Hitler the justification he was looking for to commit genocide.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:read the bible is Yahweh omnibenevolent?
Deutoronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Exodus20:5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a (B)jealous God, (C)visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Yahweh has rituals for us to come to Him because the profane cannot mix with the Holy.You would not last a nanosecond if you approached Yahweh in your profance state.
So with what you said, I can safely deduce that the Judeo-Christian God of Yahweh is arrogant, high and mighty, and has a bad attitude to lower people. What hypocrisy when they teach us to be humble when the God is not.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:read the bible is Yahweh omnibenevolent?
Deutoronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Exodus20:5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a (B)jealous God, (C)visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Yahweh has rituals for us to come to Him because the profane cannot mix with the Holy.You would not last a nanosecond if you approached Yahweh in your profance state.
This seems like a rather extreme view, which many don't hold today
Originally posted by Larryteo:So with what you said, I can safely deduce that the Judeo-Christian God of Yahweh is arrogant, high and mighty, and has a bad attitude to lower people. What hypocrisy when they teach us to be humble when the God is not.
5(A)The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD.
6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, (B)compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7who (C)keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He (D)will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, (E)visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
8 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:This seems like a rather extreme view, which many don't hold today
when you talk about Yahweh, you have to take the whole thing into context, not just as the christians today preach a G_d of love, grace etc... the christians seem to forget that they are worshipping the G_d of Avraham, Yitzak and Yaakov... it is the whole book of the bible that describes who He is, what He wants and how we interact with Him.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Exodus 34:5-7
5(A)The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD.
6Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, (B)compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;
7who (C)keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He (D)will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, (E)visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
Deuteronomy 5:8-10
8 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
These passages dictate a malevolent deity, what some might call the devil today
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:These passages dictate a malevolent deity, what some might call the devil today
Not a devil, but a lady gaga.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:These passages dictate a malevolent deity, what some might call the devil today
I beg to differ. The G_d of the bible is a fair G_d, yet you cannot expect Him to tolerate people who are unrighteous and who are sinful. The warning has always been given.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:I beg to differ. The G_d of the bible is a fair G_d, yet you cannot expect Him to tolerate people who are unrighteous and who are sinful. The warning has always been given.
Even extermination based on race and religion? It is certainly ironic that we call Hitler a murderer for his extermination of Jews, but don't flinch after reading the racist genocides depicted in the bible. It really shows how a religion can use the excuse of god to justify anything, which is my main contendment with the abrahamic religions. Why would god actually command his followers to kill when he could just do it himself? It certainly seems that god is not the actual voice to the people, but rather the justification of it.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:Even extermination based on race and religion? It is certainly ironic that we call Hitler a murderer for his extermination of Jews, but don't flinch after reading the racist genocides depicted in the bible. It really shows how a religion can use the excuse of god to justify anything, which is my main contendment with the abrahamic religions. Why would god actually command his followers to kill when he could just do it himself? It certainly seems that god is not the actual voice to the people, but rather the justification of it.
If you read through the Tenakh, you will realise that G_d applies the same standard across the board to EVERYONE, when His own chosen people sinned, the same punishment was meted out.
Numbers 15:15 There shall be one Torah for the foreigner and the Jew alike.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:If you read through the Tenakh, you will realise that G_d applies the same standard across the board to EVERYONE, when His own chosen people sinned, the same punishment was meted out.
Numbers 15:15 There shall be one Torah for the foreigner and the Jew alike.
The same standard? Your post referenced the Jews as being "chosen people", that already shows a clear disparity
The jews are chosen people. God preferred their illiterate ancestors over ours. What bias and hypocrisy to themselves.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:The same standard? Your post referenced the Jews as being "chosen people", that already shows a clear disparity
there is no disparity because anyone who wishes to join with the people of Hashem are most welcome to.