Forming a Torah observant community
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Greetings,
I've been struggling with the concept of trinity and God is man doctrine and hence forth like to know if there;s any Torah observant community here in SG for Gentiles
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why don't you explaint your understanding of the holy trinity. and managed the discussion from there on. I think it is very normal for all christian to work thru understanding of the holy trinity.
You just have to ignore those that come and tell what the "official version" or Righteous attack.
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Hi Catknight.
I think its commendable you want to know God more...but I'm just abit puzzled why and how you come to the seperation of the bible to just the Torah alone and why identify yourself as a Gentile (although technically we're mostly gentiles, but in the NT, we're ONE in the body of Christ).
You seem to be more into Judaism rather than Christianity? Or are you a Jewish Christian?
I can explain to you private on the Trinity (so that its a more direct 2-way discussion) if you wish and provide you the biblical verses that explains everything.
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Both Ot and NT is important as christian just that nowadays christians out of convenience don't bother much about laws , just saved by grace mentality which is passive and dangeorus trend
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Originally posted by Catknight:
Both Ot and NT is important as christian just that nowadays christians out of convenience don't bother much about laws , just saved by grace mentality which is passive and dangeorus trend
Thats why its so popular, some think that you don't have to do anything, that its easy.
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Originally posted by merkava4:
Hi Catknight.
I think its commendable you want to know God more...but I'm just abit puzzled why and how you come to the seperation of the bible to just the Torah alone and why identify yourself as a Gentile (although technically we're mostly gentiles, but in the NT, we're ONE in the body of Christ).
You seem to be more into Judaism rather than Christianity? Or are you a Jewish Christian?
I can explain to you private on the Trinity (so that its a more direct 2-way discussion) if you wish and provide you the biblical verses that explains everything.
So clarify, does being a christian mean that one does not follow Torah or for that matter the mitzvot found in the Tenakh?
Why would you put Torah as part of Judaism and not christianity?
There are no biblical verses that support the idea of a trinity.
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
So clarify, does being a christian mean that one does not follow Torah or for that matter the mitzvot found in the Tenakh?
Why would you put Torah as part of Judaism and not christianity?
There are no biblical verses that support the idea of a trinity.
Hey breyton/Catknight,
Judaism is coming back as the true scripture god intended. Every generation just like the torah days, evil nations and their pagan religions (christianity, baal, asteroth, greek myth, etc) will not stay long and His Laws and Will comes back to newer generations becuase the Law is everlasting and naturally logical.
Because WWII showed that the christians and muslim leaders know the rising of Judaism is a threat to them and thats why they use the war as a guise to exterminate them systematically.
But God's Promise prevailed as long as there is ONE righteous Jew.
This internet genearation where the hebrew scripture is open for all to see will be the finality of Christian NT and Quram.
The proof is in the text. There is nothing to discuss or intimidate like what you are doing now brey.
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Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
Hey breyton/Catknight,
Judaism is coming back as the true scripture god intended. Every generation just like the torah days, evil nations and their pagan religions (christianity, baal, asteroth, greek myth, etc) will not stay long and His Laws and Will comes back to newer generations becuase the Law is everlasting and naturally logical.
Because WWII showed that the christians and muslim leaders know the rising of Judaism is a threat to them and thats why they use the war as a guise to exterminate them systematically.
But God's Promise prevailed as long as there is ONE righteous Jew.
This internet genearation where the hebrew scripture is open for all to see will be the finality of Christian NT and Quram.
The proof is in the text. There is nothing to discuss or intimidate like what you are doing now brey.
Judaism doesn't seem to be rising any more, nor has it for some time now. Seems like a racist ideology, one righteous jew?
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Originally posted by dadeadman1337:
Judaism doesn't seem to be rising any more, nor has it for some time now. Seems like a racist ideology, one righteous jew?
The scripture is not racist bro. Jews that are not righteous make it racist. Anyone any colour can convert as long as they understand the purpose of the Law to mankind and his duty to himself, family and community.
On the other hand, the other two "religion" has leeched on to the Torah and actually re-interpret it to thier own. Claiming that one prophet or Son is enuf to overall god's original stance on the Law as everlasting. Both religion prophet did not forfull their final prophecies and still can claim their truth.
the mind boogles.
For your question, job and abraham is deemed righteous to God. Pls read your bible without any influence from "pastors, deacons, bsihops". Its was a shocker how much they lie through their teeth. Can I sue them? no...
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Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
Hey breyton/Catknight,
Judaism is coming back as the true scripture god intended. Every generation just like the torah days, evil nations and their pagan religions (christianity, baal, asteroth, greek myth, etc) will not stay long and His Laws and Will comes back to newer generations becuase the Law is everlasting and naturally logical.
Because WWII showed that the christians and muslim leaders know the rising of Judaism is a threat to them and thats why they use the war as a guise to exterminate them systematically.
But God's Promise prevailed as long as there is ONE righteous Jew.
This internet genearation where the hebrew scripture is open for all to see will be the finality of Christian NT and Quram.
The proof is in the text. There is nothing to discuss or intimidate like what you are doing now brey.
Who am I trying to intimidate??
The Torah is true scripture, Judaism in itself has also perverted G_d Torah.
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Noahide laws for gentiles being subservient to jewish authorities and talmud literature seems to be against goyims?
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Originally posted by Catknight:
Noahide laws for gentiles being subservient to jewish authorities and talmud literature seems to be against goyims?
Refer B'Midbar (Numbers) 15:15 and Vayikra (Leviticus) 24:22 there shall be one Torah for both the Goyim and the Jew. As long as we who are goyim choose to be joined to Yisrael, then we will be on equal standing with the Jew. We follow the same Torah, we have equal rights. It is all in the Tenakh.
Talmudic literature is also against the Torah and the prophets and has become to some extent a perversion of Torah.
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Are the harsh laws of the OT still applicable today?
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Originally posted by RoyFang:
Are the harsh laws of the OT still applicable today?
What do you think?
And why would you consider the laws (mitzvot) in the Tenakh (OT) harsh?
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Originally posted by breytonhartge:
What do you think?
And why would you consider the laws (mitzvot) in the Tenakh (OT) harsh?
Stone this guy trying to convert you, leave not one man, woman or child who refuses to surrender alive. etc
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Originally posted by dadeadman1337:
Stone this guy trying to convert you, leave not one man, woman or child who refuses to surrender alive. etc
So you find the OT harsh? Consider what Yeshua said, we not only have to keep the letter of the law but the spirit of the law also. Still as harsh as the OT. Hmmm.
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Originally posted by RoyFang:
Are the harsh laws of the OT still applicable today?
Dear RoyFang,
When I went to the rock church many years ago, that monkey of a magic show man REPEATLY try to CONvince us that the Law is really difficult and helped by the lawyer style of scripture talk, PAUL of Rome saying this and that and trying their best to avoid the law. I was convinved even before I got a chance to read the OT carefully. Thats what I call a trap.
Admit it. you didnt read the whole OT carefully right?
Thats precisely what Chrisitainity has done. Avoid the OT reading chronologically in HEBREW as text proof.
If you read the WHOLE LAW you would cry just like how the nation of Israel cried after they lost the law themselves for a few hundred years and not know how to live during the kings period.
The Law changes you and illuminates your way of thinking on natural world life and helps your loved ones too. Dont be fooled by the "Holy Spirit" "Speak in tongues" offer. they never guided anyone and if so why do humans still need to be thinking and be logical?
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In short...from the bible...
The Word of God is forever valid. So is the Law. The law is the basic foundation of morality, which every civil law in every country is based upon, such as no murdering, cheating, adultery, a rest day, etc. all of which are observed throughout the world as the fundamental truth, even if they don't acknowledge God as Creator.
So anyone who tell you the law is invalid, is a liar.
Yet, the law cannot save, nobody can keep the laws. The bible says, even if you break one, you break all of them. Therefore the law was not sent by God as a 'requirement' to be saved, but is to tell us what is right and wrong, that we've done wrong.
Yes, the Law cannot save, but it has its purpose.
So by law, we can never be justified, never be saved. Therefore salvation is by Grace alone, not by works. No amount of works, ceremonies can save us. It is by grace, which we cannot earn and do not deserve.
However, from the beginning of time, prophesied in the Old Testament, God promised He will send His Son to die for our sins, so that we will be forgiven and redeemed. Therefore, with Christ, we can claim salvation and redemption, forgiveness of sin by grace.
Law and Grace
Law and Grace works together. The law is like a mirror, showing us what is wrong with us, but while the mirror cannot clean your face, Grace through the blood of Jesus can forgive and wash away our sins.
Because the law is valid, that's why we need Grace. And Grace is there because the law can't save us. It is as simple as that. If the law can save, we need not have Grace.
This is the same concept of salvation in both the Old and New Testament. In the Old Testament, before Christ came, God gave the Israelites the tabernacle and festivals and ceremonies, signifying law and grace. After Christ came, the ceremonies are no longer necessary because it has been fulfilled by Christ, as the Lamb that was slained.
The Wrong Grace
The problem with 'extreme grace' preachers is that they distort the meaning of grace to say that, because of grace, you will ALWAYS be forgiven, regardless of what you do and we need not repent anymore. Which is not true, as the bible also says if we take Christ for granted, one day we will find no place for repentance. In Ephesians, Paul also preached and warned against this doctrine.
In theology, we call this doctrine, antinomianism - or the teaching of lawlessness. It is an age-old heresy that appears every few hundred years in the Church world. It comes and goes.
Yes, works can't save us, it is purely by Grace. Yet, if we take Grace for granted, God will retract Grace from us. That's why in Revelations, you will still read of churches being warned and luke warm believers being spit out and rejected by God.
Torah, Judaism, Christians
The problem with people who claim that only the 'original' Torah and Judaism is a true religion is that, they missed the point that God said He will send His Son to atone for our sins.
And Jesus did came, He proved Himself, totally sinless, blameless, died willingly on the cross. Moved in compassion, preached and revealed the Word of God to us.
The New Testament and the Old Testament is a complete book that does not conflict each other. It is from the same God that the Jews worship, who has also sent Christ to reveal His love and salvation to men.
Therefore, the Torah and the Old Testament for that matter, is basically half-the-story of God, the New Testament completes it.
If you read carefully. The Old and New Testament cross references and proves each other's authenticity as the true Word of God, from the same God, with the same character and the same purpose and mission and plan for men.
I hope you will see the light and find Christ :)
Tongues
Tongues is preached throughout the New Testament as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Admittedly, there're people who fake and make strange noises, but that's their problem.
But the right teaching of tongues is that - Yes, it can be spoken publicly with or without interpretation. If you are speaking to God, nothing wrong. But don't speak to one another in tongues like a mad person, which Paul said, I rather pray for a person in understanding than only in tongues. But he also says he thank God he speak in tongues more than anyone else. In the early church, whenever the Holy Spirit came, everyone spoke in tongues publicly.
I think some Christians mix everything up and think that all charismatic people who believe in tongues are into extreme grace. Its not true. Basically the extreme grace doctrine in Singapore is only very subtly preached by one church in Singapore.
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Originally posted by specialOps:
In short...from the bible...
The Word of God is forever valid. So is the Law. The law is the basic foundation of morality, which every civil law in every country is based upon, such as no murdering, cheating, adultery, a rest day, etc. all of which are observed throughout the world as the fundamental truth, even if they don't acknowledge God as Creator.
So anyone who tell you the law is invalid, is a liar.
Yet, the law cannot save, nobody can keep the laws. The bible says, even if you break one, you break all of them. Therefore the law was not sent by God as a 'requirement' to be saved, but is to tell us what is right and wrong, that we've done wrong.
Yes, the Law cannot save, but it has its purpose.
So by law, we can never be justified, never be saved. Therefore salvation is by Grace alone, not by works. No amount of works, ceremonies can save us. It is by grace, which we cannot earn and do not deserve.
However, from the beginning of time, prophesied in the Old Testament, God promised He will send His Son to die for our sins, so that we will be forgiven and redeemed. Therefore, with Christ, we can claim salvation and redemption, forgiveness of sin by grace.
Law and Grace
Law and Grace works together. The law is like a mirror, showing us what is wrong with us, but while the mirror cannot clean your face, Grace through the blood of Jesus can forgive and wash away our sins.
Because the law is valid, that's why we need Grace. And Grace is there because the law can't save us. It is as simple as that. If the law can save, we need not have Grace.
This is the same concept of salvation in both the Old and New Testament. In the Old Testament, before Christ came, God gave the Israelites the tabernacle and festivals and ceremonies, signifying law and grace. After Christ came, the ceremonies are no longer necessary because it has been fulfilled by Christ, as the Lamb that was slained.
The Wrong Grace
The problem with 'extreme grace' preachers is that they distort the meaning of grace to say that, because of grace, you will ALWAYS be forgiven, regardless of what you do and we need not repent anymore. Which is not true, as the bible also says if we take Christ for granted, one day we will find no place for repentance. In Ephesians, Paul also preached and warned against this doctrine.
In theology, we call this doctrine, antinomianism - or the teaching of lawlessness. It is an age-old heresy that appears every few hundred years in the Church world. It comes and goes.
Yes, works can't save us, it is purely by Grace. Yet, if we take Grace for granted, God will retract Grace from us. That's why in Revelations, you will still read of churches being warned and luke warm believers being spit out and rejected by God.
Torah, Judaism, Christians
The problem with people who claim that only the 'original' Torah and Judaism is a true religion is that, they missed the point that God said He will send His Son to atone for our sins.
And Jesus did came, He proved Himself, totally sinless, blameless, died willingly on the cross. Moved in compassion, preached and revealed the Word of God to us.
The New Testament and the Old Testament is a complete book that does not conflict each other. It is from the same God that the Jews worship, who has also sent Christ to reveal His love and salvation to men.
Therefore, the Torah and the Old Testament for that matter, is basically half-the-story of God, the New Testament completes it.
If you read carefully. The Old and New Testament cross references and proves each other's authenticity as the true Word of God, from the same God, with the same character and the same purpose and mission and plan for men.
I hope you will see the light and find Christ :)
Tongues
Tongues is preached throughout the New Testament as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Admittedly, there're people who fake and make strange noises, but that's their problem.
But the right teaching of tongues is that - Yes, it can be spoken publicly with or without interpretation. If you are speaking to God, nothing wrong. But don't speak to one another in tongues like a mad person, which Paul said, I rather pray for a person in understanding than only in tongues. But he also says he thank God he speak in tongues more than anyone else. In the early church, whenever the Holy Spirit came, everyone spoke in tongues publicly.
I think some Christians mix everything up and think that all charismatic people who believe in tongues are into extreme grace. Its not true. Basically the extreme grace doctrine in Singapore is only very subtly preached by one church in Singapore.
It seems that god places a lot of emphasis on blood rituals, and your claim is that jesus removes the need. However why would a god actually care about such rituals in the first place? With both human and animal sacrifices? A higher power claiming to be omnibenevolent would never require such things, the logical conclusion is that such festivals and rituals are completely man-made, or your god is not as nice as you would like to believe
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Originally posted by dadeadman1337:
It seems that god places a lot of emphasis on blood rituals, and your claim is that jesus removes the need. However why would a god actually care about such rituals in the first place? With both human and animal sacrifices? A higher power claiming to be omnibenevolent would never require such things, the logical conclusion is that such festivals and rituals are completely man-made, or your god is not as nice as you would like to believe
deadman really said it. -
Originally posted by dadeadman1337: It seems that god places a lot of emphasis on blood rituals, and your claim is that jesus removes the need. However why would a god actually care about such rituals in the first place? With both human and animal sacrifices? A higher power claiming to be omnibenevolent would never require such things, the logical covnclusion is that such festivals and rituals are completely man-made, or your god is not as nice as you would like to believe
Because the weight of sins can only be paid by Blood. If your sins are not paid your past sins will hunt you down & punish you & future generations.No amount of fasting & prayer can lift the guilt from your heart if your sins are left unpaid. Even if there are blessings you will gain but lose something else in exchange because we do not deserve blessings if there is something which we still owe.
I have seen real life examples of people's sins are not punished on themselves but punished on their descendents. I have seen it with my own eyes that a fillial son (of other faith but I won't mention) prayed for a miracle for his cancer striken mother. His mother got healed but he lost his life in an accident a few days later. This is unfair but can anyone explain why it still happens?
Death may not means physical death but also emotional death why the person found out that he had lost his meaning of life. When the angel of death comes for you, you have no where to run unless someone else takes your place. When a person dies, his blood flows out. That is the significance of blood. When the angel of death sees blood, he passes over you. For salvation, someone's blood must flow & for the Christians, it is the blood of Christ & no one else but Christ,for He is born to die so that through the death of the One who knew no sins your sins will be paid & the wrath of God will be fully satisfied for someone have took your place.
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Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
The scripture is not racist bro. Jews that are not righteous make it racist. Anyone any colour can convert as long as they understand the purpose of the Law to mankind and his duty to himself, family and community.
On the other hand, the other two "religion" has leeched on to the Torah and actually re-interpret it to thier own. Claiming that one prophet or Son is enuf to overall god's original stance on the Law as everlasting. Both religion prophet did not forfull their final prophecies and still can claim their truth.
the mind boogles.
For your question, job and abraham is deemed righteous to God. Pls read your bible without any influence from "pastors, deacons, bsihops". Its was a shocker how much they lie through their teeth. Can I sue them? no...
Abraham fought in war & killed many in the battle of Sodom. He also slept with his maid, Hagga & Hagga bored him a son named Ishmael. He also lied twice & gave up his own wife to evil kings twice.
Jacob stole the 1st born blessing from Esau.
David decapitated a Philistine soldier named Goliath. He also had an affair with Bathsheba, wife of Uriah, one of his generals & sent Uriah to die in war.
Solomon became corrupted with his wisdom, married foreign brides & built temples for their foreign gods.
Moses killed an Egyptian & went into hiding for 40 years, ended up to be a stutterer before God used him to bring His people out of Egypt, drowning a whole army of Egyption soldiers in the Red Sea.
Samson killed a whole army of Philistine soldiers with a donkey's jaw.
Actually there is quite alot of sex & violence in the Bible. But there is something which meets more than the eye which brings revelations to believers.
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Originally posted by Dreamwerkz:
Because the weight of sins can only be paid by Blood. If your sins are not paid your past sins will hunt you down & punish you & future generations.No amount of fasting & prayer can lift the guilt from your heart if your sins are left unpaid. Even if there are blessings you will gain but lose something else in exchange because we do not deserve blessings if there is something which we still owe.
I have seen real life examples of people's sins are not punished on themselves but punished on their descendents. I have seen it with my own eyes that a fillial son (of other faith but I won't mention) prayed for a miracle for his cancer striken mother. His mother got healed but he lost his life in an accident a few days later. This is unfair but can anyone explain why it still happens?
Death may not means physical death but also emotional death why the person found out that he had lost his meaning of life. When the angel of death comes for you, you have no where to run unless someone else takes your place. When a person dies, his blood flows out. That is the significance of blood. When the angel of death sees blood, he passes over you. For salvation, someone's blood must flow & for the Christians, it is the blood of Christ & no one else but Christ,for He is born to die so that through the death of the One who knew no sins your sins will be paid & the wrath of God will be fully satisfied for someone have took your place.
How did you come to this conclusion about the importance of blood? It is easy to view it as the most important factor in preserving life in the olden times, when medical science was at its infancy. This importance of blood in the preservation of life, as believed by the people of that time, would logically result in such a principle intruding into the very basis of their religious beliefs/delusions. The proclaimed importance of this liquid, blood, has a high chance of being nothing but part of a bronze age tradition. Even if I were to accept your premises, i would ask why would your god create such a ridiculous rule? Blood as a cleanser? Why beat about the bush to achieve the same conclusion?
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That is the reason why not everyone is a Christian. It is a matter of personal choice. Faith is something which is not seen yet believed. Just like how people believes in electricity but it is something not seen. For the visible is temporal but the invisible is eternal. For the atheist, they can say that those who believe in God are weak minded but Christians say that for they weak, their God is their strength. Christianity is for those who are weak & helpless. It is not for those who are strong & mighty in their own strength & wisdom.
It is about a God who accepts you no matter who you are & what you did. It is about a God who came as Man to know your pains & to pay for your sins so that He can have your curses & you can have His blessings. His finished work trancends time so that He would only have to die once & rest on His Father's right hand after His work is completed. You may ask how many Gods are there in Christianity. I can say it is One but the One is the Triune God. The Son, the Father & the Spirit. Just like me, I am the son, the father & the husband. For the Israelites call Him "Elohim", which is in plural whereas ,"Eloha" is in singular. Eloha is used in other faiths in other languages.
About the Blood issue,what I have stated is just the revelations mentioned in the Bible. Extracted from the book of Exodus. The eve of the passover when Moses brought his people out from Egypt & the people of Israel ate the passover lamb. God sent the angel of death to bring judgement on the Eygptians. For the angel of death did not see the good deeds of the Israelites but the blood of the Lamb on the door post & passed over them. For they believed in the blood & ate the Lamb for their healing from all the inflictions which the Eygptions gave them. You can say that it is written by Man. But at the end of the day it is about the individual choice. As for me, I believe.
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Originally posted by Dreamwerkz:
That is the reason why not everyone is a Christian. It is a matter of personal choice. Faith is something which is not seen yet believed. Just like how people believes in electricity but it is something not seen. For the visible is temporal but the invisible is eternal. For the atheist, they can say that those who believe in God are weak minded but Christians say that for they weak, their God is their strength. Christianity is for those who are weak & helpless. It is not for those who are strong & mighty in their own strength & wisdom.
It is about a God who accepts you no matter who you are & what you did. It is about a God who came as Man to know your pains & to pay for your sins so that He can have your curses & you can have His blessings. His finished work trancends time so that He would only have to die once & rest on His Father's right hand after His work is completed. You may ask how many Gods are there in Christianity. I can say it is One but the One is the Triune God. The Son, the Father & the Spirit. Just like me, I am the son, the father & the husband. For the Israelites call Him "Elohim", which is in plural whereas ,"Eloha" is in singular. Eloha is used in other faiths in other languages.
About the Blood issue,what I have stated is just the revelations mentioned in the Bible. Extracted from the book of Exodus. The eve of the passover when Moses brought his people out from Egypt & the people of Israel ate the passover lamb. God sent the angel of death to bring judgement on the Eygptians. For the angel of death did not see the good deeds of the Israelites but the blood of the Lamb on the door post & passed over them. For they believed in the blood & ate the Lamb for their healing from all the inflictions which the Eygptions gave them. You can say that it is written by Man. But at the end of the day it is about the individual choice. As for me, I believe.
Faith has to be unproven, else it would cease to be called as such. However my question is that if god is truly real, why would a god seek to be behind the guise of "faith" rather than logic and reason? The christians believe that anyone who disbelieves in their god would go to hell. If God was real, why would he aim to provide humans access to logic and reasoning only to tell them to abandon it for heaven? It seems logically contradictory. You stated well that god is for the weak and helpless, I think it does provide some sort of hope, but that doesn't justify the cause for god's existence which remains my primary argument.
As for your further paragraphs I believe my previous posts have enacted a worthy response (for other forumers following), why does god have to somehow come down and die when he can just forgive?