Originally posted by dadeadman1337:Conclusions may or may not be simillar, but from a rational point of view, can you expect someone to believe creation especially since there is hardly any evidence to support it? Its not so much that people don't want to believe in God, but that there is insufficient reason to do so. How would you expect one to view Christianity then?
Those christians ah, when they run out of ideas they will tell you about the bible prophecy lah this and that lah all the crap. -.- Besides there are unfulfilled prophecies.
Skeptics of faith healing should take a look at Lourdes, a small town in France.
Originally posted by googoomuck:Skeptics of faith healing should take a look at Lourdes, a small town in France.
I watched a Richard Dawkins video and he talked about it, and interviewed a man there. Every year 80k people visit, and the place has been visited for a century as holy ground. So it is estimated 70-80 million visitors. Out of all these, there are only 66 recognised miracles. This shows that the percentage of miracles happening in Lourdes is no more than say, at the Eiffel Tower, or any other place in the world. It is also mentioned that whatever healing was something that could have gotten better anyway, and not anything spectacular like the regrowth of amputated limbs
Originally posted by googoomuck:Skeptics of faith healing should take a look at Lourdes, a small town in France.
It could be due to the environment, and it could also be the confidence of the people who go there after hearing about the miracles, that causes the body cells to repair and replicate more quickly than usual. If you can show me a case where a tumour as big as an adult human fist disappear instantly after some prayer, I may enter christianity again. =)
Originally posted by Larryteo:It could be due to the environment, and it could also be the confidence of the people who go there after hearing about the miracles, that causes the body cells to repair and replicate more quickly than usual. If you can show me a case where a tumour as big as an adult human fist disappear instantly after some prayer, I may enter christianity again. =)
The placebo effect has been widely acknowledged, but so far none have managed to regrow a severed limb. If you claim that someone had a severed arm and it grew back, with evidence to prove it, I would concede
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:The placebo effect has been widely acknowledged, but so far none have managed to regrow a severed limb. If you claim that someone had a severed arm and it grew back, with evidence to prove it, I would concede
Maybe got some regrow broken genitals :P
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:The placebo effect has been widely acknowledged, but so far none have managed to regrow a severed limb. If you claim that someone had a severed arm and it grew back, with evidence to prove it, I would concede
I sometimes wonder why God doesn't give each person a million bucks to believe Him.
He would have had the whole world population becoming Christians. He gave us will power instead.
Originally posted by googoomuck:I sometimes wonder why God doesn't give each person a million bucks to believe Him.
He would have had the whole world population becoming Christians. He gave us will power instead.
God and and the so called given will power are most likely the largest hoax in the history of man.
Yes, he would had the whole world population bow down to the Jews who he favors so much if he want to.
He would had the whole world population become Christians or Muslims, Jewish etc...but he didn't, either he give us the choice to choose or he does not have the power to do so.
Religion is probably one of the worst things to have ever happened, one of the cruelest hoaxes in mankind made to control and enslave humans. The bible is one of the worst works of evil in the history of man.
Originally posted by dadeadman1337:I watched a Richard Dawkins video and he talked about it, and interviewed a man there. Every year 80k people visit, and the place has been visited for a century as holy ground. So it is estimated 70-80 million visitors. Out of all these, there are only 66 recognised miracles. This shows that the percentage of miracles happening in Lourdes is no more than say, at the Eiffel Tower, or any other place in the world. It is also mentioned that whatever healing was something that could have gotten better anyway, and not anything spectacular like the regrowth of amputated limbs
Not all visitors go there for cures. Most of them were tourists. Every year, there are an average of only 35 claims of miraculous cures. Can the 67 recognised miracles be co-incidences that happened only in Lourdes?
Doctors,irrespective of their religous affiliation(or none),are invited to become members of Lourdes Medical Bureau.
The Bureau investigates all claims of miraculous cures with tests available to medical science to try to debunk these claims before a cure is recognised as a miracle.
As for regrowth of limbs, can't expect the maker to fix everything that are broken by man himself.
Some animals do have to ability to regrow limbs. Scientists are working on it.
Originally posted by googoomuck:Not all visitors go there for cures. Most of them were tourists. Every year, there are an average of only 35 claims of miraculous cures. Can the 67 recognised miracles be co-incidences that happened only in Lourdes?
Doctors,irrespective of their religous affiliation(or none),are invited to become members of Lourdes Medical Bureau.
The Bureau investigates all claims of miraculous cures with tests available to medical science to try to debunk these claims before a cure is recognised as a miracle.
As for regrowth of limbs, can't expect the maker to fix everything that are broken by man himself.
Some animals do have to ability to regrow limbs. Scientists are working on it.
35 out of 80,000? Granted there may be tourists, but the large majority seek for cures. Starfishes can regenerate, so can the tails of lizards, perhaps if humans evolve in the future, it is less likely to be seen as a true miracle. However for now, if you regrow a limb before my eyes, I would definately believe in your god. Overall statistically speaking, healings in Lourdes remain no more than sheer chance, taking into account the large numbers. You are more likely to catch someone else's disease rather than getting healed there
As for regrowth of limbs, can't expect the maker to fix everything that are broken by man himself.
lack of a limb could be growth defects and not necessary broken by men. God could also cure people like the Tree Man with hideous wart growth as well. The idea is tat there should be irrefutable evidence tat a miracle had happened. Not something tat could be placebo or acting or just someone trying harder
I sometimes wonder why God doesn't give each person a million bucks to believe Him.
He would have had the whole world population becoming Christians. He gave us will power instead.
I was wondering why he didn't just give us irrefutable evidence to believe in him. Why should he expect normal rational people to choose him out of the thousands of similar religion
to dadeadman,
then pls explain why 2billion christians worldwide(statistics can be found thru internet) can view christianity as if there was enuff evidence? like i said b4, how do we define insufficient? wad if these 2billion christians feel theres sufficient evidence?
u still havent answered my qn...if christianity teaches salvation by grace while other religions teach salvation by gd works, shldnt we view christianity diff from other religions???
another qn...ever considered how diff the perspective would be if we evaluate science using religion instead of the otehr way around?
there is no such thing as irrefutable evidence siimply cos ppl can always find loopholes in arguments...so the qn is juz cos i found some loopholes, does it mean its not true?
there are divorces everywhere nowadays...so does tat mean blissful marriages dun exist? note tat i am not trying to prove God's existence here...i am bringing across a pt tat theres no such thing as irrefutable evidence...
its all in the mind. just have to focus on the main objective, that is to gain happiness. no dodgy 'healing' needed. all we need is love and harmony in the home to get us through tough times
the above are from neutral sources...u can choose to believe or disbelieve them...
then pls explain why 2billion christians worldwide(statistics can be found thru internet) can view christianity as if there was enuff evidence? like i said b4, how do we define insufficient? wad if these 2billion christians feel theres sufficient evidence?
I don't think just because a lot of people believe in christianity automatically put it as right. If you want to compare, 4.7 billion of the people (population of the world is at 6.7 billion) do not believe in christainity. Doesn't that make it seems there is insufficient evidence to believe in it ?
And to me, religion is believing in supernatural powers and beings. As long as they teach supernatural elements and expect a certain behavior, they are all religions. Wat exactly do they teach isn't important
My alien healing is good. Don't believe can come my 'sibehhochio' spaceship.
to reservistsianz
u obviously missed a part tat i said...i said i am not using the statistics to prove God's existence...u can copy and paste wad i typed yet didnt notice i actually said tat...its juz a qn i am asking dadeadman...
Originally posted by despondent:to dadeadman,
then pls explain why 2billion christians worldwide(statistics can be found thru internet) can view christianity as if there was enuff evidence? like i said b4, how do we define insufficient? wad if these 2billion christians feel theres sufficient evidence?
u still havent answered my qn...if christianity teaches salvation by grace while other religions teach salvation by gd works, shldnt we view christianity diff from other religions???
another qn...ever considered how diff the perspective would be if we evaluate science using religion instead of the otehr way around?
Based on chrisitianity, all other religions worship false gods (maybe except judaism), for the fact that the other majority of the world, excluding atheists and agnostics, believe in some other deity, it seems to prove that most people would have a tendency to believe in the supernatural due to mitigating factors, most notably fear, feelings of solidarity and hope in another life. Many Christians have been raised from birth with the idea being fed to them, in such situations it is unsurprising if they choose to merely believe what their religious leader/bible says without question. Levels of sufficient evidence may vary, but for the fact that suicide bombers have no evidence that they are going to heaven after they die, it shows that many hold a lower standard in examining evidence in relation to religious beliefs, either because they were taught, or because they just want to accept it because of different factors.
For your 2nd qn, on how we should view Christianity, it seems that one might be saved due to grace, but that certainly would not happen to an evil person according to the church. Simply put, one has to live a "christian" life to go to heaven, to get into God's good graces. This seems very simillar with other religions asking followers to do good deeds.
To evalute science with religion seems a tad ridiculous at best, due to the fact that much of theology in christianity is based on the bible which with no basis at all, except faith, people believe to be holy. Science however has proven itself with evidence, most notably in the modern era lives we live today. An example of a failing when using doctrine to evalute science was when Galileo was arrested by the inquistion for his "herectical" scientific thoughts of heliocentricity. Yet there fails to be any example where christianity's doctrines trump scientific discoveries/theories.
Yes, while in an argument you may find loopholes and such, but to question all the time would no doubt lead to the Pyrrhonian regress. Thus we have to content ourselves with a highly probable, but not completely foolproof explanation.
As for your marriage argument, there are still happy marriage around, just that there is less focus on it. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to read my long paragraphs
to dadeadman...
no, u havent gotten it rite abt the salvation part...christianity does teach salvation by grace alone and not by good works...hence, it becomes very diff from other religions...godd works does play a part but onli after receiving salvation by grace...for other religions, u do good to receive salvation...this diff, subtle it may be to u, is crucial when it comes to how we shld view christianity compared to other religions...
there may be happy marriages ard but there are also divorces...so where is the irrefutable evidence tat i wun end up divorced if i get married?