The way some Christians argue against science like when they pit the creation story against evolution is just pure stupidity.
In my conversations with some European Christians, they have no problems accepting evolution as scientific truth.
From my conversations with many Christians in Singapore, (probably because of the influence of the Church in America), the stupidity is glaring.
The will argue with you what is proven scientifically and call into question that which has been peer reviewed with things that some pastor, some "authority" claim to be the truth with no or no good basis.
One way Christians need not be stupid is to accept that god is beyond human understanding and description.
Whatever you read in the Bible or Koran or Sutra fails to explain god.
It can only hint at what god is like. It can only describe people's experiences with god.
To say that the bible explains and describes god accurately is sheer arrogance and gross stupidity. How can human words and language explain god? What kind of stupid god is that? What a stupid god he is if humans can understand and explain him.
You might think that the way to approach religion is for it to be as "provable" and "logical" as science and philosophy.
Rubbish. Stupid.
That only degrades your god.
Read the bible as trying to describe something that is indescribable and mysterious.
Don't ever read the bible as a science text book and what is written in there as scientific truth. It need not be conflicting. It can be complementary.
The present scientists are doing religious people a big favor by pointing out the inaccuracies (scientifically speaking) of the religious texts. If religious people take that as offensive, they are just stupid.
they are being indoctrinated to think that way for generations after generations, decades after decades, centuries after centuries. its part of their culture already. I dun think they have a choice as some are just born into the religion, conversion to other religion is not allowed.
I know some christians became disillusioned and either became free thinkers or convert to other religions. I feel that one need to think for oneself and challenge religious beliefs, after all, these beliefs were preached some 2000 years ago, which were ancient when they were first espoused. some religious beliefs from othe faiths really had no place in this day and age.
I once watched the discovery channel and they showed a temple full of rats in India and the devotees were worshipping a deity of rats of some sort. I saw their resident monk sharing a piece of bread with the rat and I cringed at the sight. some devotees were treating the rats urine as some holy water.
i would say European Christians have become more progressive, while Asian ones have become more inward looking and narrow minded
Even a lot, like their American counterparts, succumb to megachurches. i shudder to think of how our Asia future would be if these people grow like rabbits
Hi good morning ........
I am a free thinker
Me just about to go sleep , pass by ur post ..............
From young , whenever i feel terrible n miserable , i will stand by the window n look at the sky .
I take the sky or heaven as the main creator or my saviour ...........
I dont know whether this is describe as stupidity .............. :)
Thinking no matter wat ppl say or how ppl look at us , theres only one saying from all the religious group ......................
" good man rewarded, but no later than with the early "
Originally posted by Crystalong79:Hi good morning ........
I am a free thinker
Me just about to go sleep , pass by ur post ..............
From young , whenever i feel terrible n miserable , i will stand by the window n look at the sky .
I take the sky or heaven as the main creator or my saviour ...........
I dont know whether this is describe as stupidity .............. :)
Thinking no matter wat ppl say or how ppl look at us , theres only one saying from all the religious group ......................
" good man rewarded, but no later than with the early "
Stupidity is when you argue what is proven with what is unproven.... what you do, "stand by the window n look at the sky . I take the sky or heaven as the main creator or my saviour ..........." is from the best traditions of religion.
It is the opposite of Idolatry which is what many if not most christians that claim to eschew idols now practice.
What is an idol? It is man putting god into a form that they can see and understand. When you pigeonhole god into certain characteristics even if they are noble characteristics that is an even worse form of idolatry.
All you can say is: "My experience with god is this and that..." and never "God is this and God is that".
What is written in so-called scriptures must be taken as "allegory", people trying to describe their experiences with god and never to be taken literally. Once you take it literally, you create an idol in your head. You presume to know god and understand god as having characteristics as written in the scriptures.
As allegory, there will never be conflict between scientific proofs and scriptural inconsistencies. They are allegories, get it? They tell you something other than what is written.
You are far from stupid and you begin to be stupid when you start to say god is this and that and when you try to argue against something that is proven with something that is not to be taken literally.
Originally posted by Rooney9:they are being indoctrinated to think that way for generations after generations, decades after decades, centuries after centuries. its part of their culture already. I dun think they have a choice as some are just born into the religion, conversion to other religion is not allowed.
I know some christians became disillusioned and either became free thinkers or convert to other religions. I feel that one need to think for oneself and challenge religious beliefs, after all, these beliefs were preached some 2000 years ago, which were ancient when they were first espoused. some religious beliefs from othe faiths really had no place in this day and age.
I once watched the discovery channel and they showed a temple full of rats in India and the devotees were worshipping a deity of rats of some sort. I saw their resident monk sharing a piece of bread with the rat and I cringed at the sight. some devotees were treating the rats urine as some holy water.
I think it has something to do with "fear of the unknown". They are afraid of what they will be/become if they are no longer in the faith, even if they are miserable and realise how stupid it is to argue against science that comes with scientific proofs.
Even though they are miserable as believers, they continue to cling on to their religion because, to them, the devil you know is better than the devil you do not know.
Are you referring to the Hindu Sutra or Buddhist Sutra in your first post where you said they try to explain God? Because Hinduism has a God system different from the Abrahamic God (where I refer to Judaism, Christianity, Islam) where they believe in 3 gods: Brahma the creator, Vishnu the keeper and Shiva the destroyer. Buddhism on the other hand is nontheistic.
And aside from the scientific studies (which you said are not important anyway), there are also studies regarding the inconsistencies in the bible, and arguments of whether there is a God, and whether he can be as is described: omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. that try to explain the existence or presence of a God.
Not exactly adding anything important, just saying.
Originally posted by Rooney9:I once watched the discovery channel and they showed a temple full of rats in India and the devotees were worshipping a deity of rats of some sort. I saw their resident monk sharing a piece of bread with the rat and I cringed at the sight. some devotees were treating the rats urine as some holy water.
is that really more weird than kneeling at the foot of an ancient torture device on the pagan day of the sun god Ra and consuming the ritualistic symbols of flesh and blood? =)
Why chirs pple love knocking on pple's door and try to preach the pple? Why?
Plain stupid and a nuisance.
Originally posted by ThunderFbolt:Are you referring to the Hindu Sutra or Buddhist Sutra in your first post where you said they try to explain God? Because Hinduism has a God system different from the Abrahamic God (where I refer to Judaism, Christianity, Islam) where they believe in 3 gods: Brahma the creator, Vishnu the keeper and Shiva the destroyer. Buddhism on the other hand is nontheistic.
And aside from the scientific studies (which you said are not important anyway), there are also studies regarding the inconsistencies in the bible, and arguments of whether there is a God, and whether he can be as is described: omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. that try to explain the existence or presence of a God.
Not exactly adding anything important, just saying.
Hindus believe in ONE GOD and manifestations of that ONE GOD.
Some manifestations are more important, like the Hindu Trinity you cited.
Some manifestations can be a physical object like a tree or a chair.
Hindus have no problems worshiping a chair or tree if it manifests God. Manifestation of God and God himself are regarded as similar.
Buddhists believe in Gods but not the way other religions believe in Gods. Like Buddhists talk about Brahma but not in the same way Hindus talk about Brahma.
When you treat the bible as allegory, the inconsistencies are no longer important. You cannot treat the bible as a logical, scientifically valid (that is, in alignment with the known laws of nature), and consistent document. It is not and will never be.
Does that mean it is useless? To a scientist it is useless. To a believer it is not. It is a rich source to learn about God but what is important is not what you learn about god in the bible but your own experiences of god in your life.
Originally posted by likeyou:Why chirs pple love knocking on pple's door and try to preach the pple? Why?
Plain stupid and a nuisance.
...because in the bible they were told to do that, to "Go and preach"
Whether that means to knock on people's doors and try to force beliefs down their throat is another matter.
I have posted this in another thread. I have just came across this phrase in one of the Buddhist book. Your thoughts please.
"Religion without Science is blind. ( I agree). Science without Religion is crippled. (I am not too sure about this one).
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:I have posted this in another thread. I have just came across this phrase in one of the Buddhist book. Your thoughts please.
"Religion without Science is blind. ( I agree). Science without Religion is crippled. (I am not too sure about this one).
Since you reading buddhist book ,Why not ask in Wisdom Bliss thread [Buddhist forum]
AEN will be able to answer you ..'
cheers
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:I have posted this in another thread. I have just came across this phrase in one of the Buddhist book. Your thoughts please.
"Religion without Science is blind. ( I agree). Science without Religion is crippled. (I am not too sure about this one).
"Science without Religion is crippled. (I am not too sure about this one)"
Science of course is simply a method to discover the secrets of the universe. It has worked very well as you know and experienced (when you type and submitted your post).
The computer is a product of Science.
When science "invented" the computer, no religion was involved. I seriously think the opposite is true. Religious beliefs cripples science. It puts limits on scientific discoveries when religious people come into power.
Like "President George W.Bush's limit on federal funding of embryonic stem cell research"
""Religion without Science is blind. ( I agree)."
Religion is thousand of years old, long before science. Blind or not, people simply carry on believing in the religious teachings. They did not need science then, they do not need science now.
They will tell you "I choose to be stupid, why do you care?" "I choose to believe, why do you care?" "I am stupid, I cannot work things out for myself and therefore I believe, why do you care?"
As long as they do not try to impose their beliefs on others, right, we won't care.
There is no need to mix science and religion. Religion deals with beliefs based on the imagination rather than tests, observations and proofs. Science deals with findings based on experiments, observations and proofs.
The two are so far apart, don't try to mix them.
Originally posted by bohiruci:
Since you reading buddhist book ,Why not ask in Wisdom Bliss thread [Buddhist forum]
AEN will be able to answer you ..'
cheers
Thanks for informing me.
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
"Science without Religion is crippled. (I am not too sure about this one)"
Science of course is simply a method to discover the secrets of the universe. It has worked very well as you know and experienced (when you type and submitted your post).
The computer is a product of Science.
When science "invented" the computer, no religion was involved. I seriously think the opposite is true. Religious beliefs cripples science. It puts limits on scientific discoveries when religious people come into power.
Like "President George W.Bush's limit on federal funding of embryonic stem cell research"
""Religion without Science is blind. ( I agree)."
Religion is thousand of years old, long before science. Blind or not, people simply carry on believing in the religious teachings. They did not need science then, they do not need science now.
They will tell you "I choose to be stupid, why do you care?" "I choose to believe, why do you care?" "I am stupid, I cannot work things out for myself and therefore I believe, why do you care?"
As long as they do not try to impose their beliefs on others, right, we won't care.
There is no need to mix science and religion. Religion deals with beliefs based on the imagination rather than tests, observations and proofs. Science deals with findings based on experiments, observations and proofs.
The two are so far apart, don't try to mix them.
Agree with you partially but not totally. Some of the things said in the scriptures are scientifically proven and some are yet to be proven. Just 3 examples below :
1) Buddha once held up a cup of water and remarked that there were 84,000 (a number to denote "many" or "countless") beings in it. No one understand what He meant. Today, we use a microscope and see that He referred to invisible microorganisms.
2) Buddha described worlds beyond ours in the vastness of outer space and other dimensions which are inhabited by many other intelligent sentiment life forms, many of which are unlike ours. Aliens existence are yet to be proven.
3) Buddhism believes in indestructibility or preservation of energy. This is in line with the law of conservation of energy, which states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed but can only be transformed from one form to another. The teaching of rebirth, is an example of transfer of imperishable Mind or mental energy from one body into another. It is yet to be proven but some scientists are looking into this issue.
all these god religion are revealing religions. what do I mean by revealing religions? It means that there are prophecies of sorts, that is able to predict am event that happens in future, before it actually happened of course.
to me its just like the same as having your fortune teller telling you that some things will happen to you in future, such as they tell you to avoid driving in december cos you might get an accident if you drive in december. the fortune teller did not tell you why you could not drive in december or how to neutralise it, just tell you if you drive in december, you will involve in an accident, thats all. the poor fellow, on hearing this, will avoid driving in december and worse, he may avoid all forms of transportation in december to avoid being involved in an accident.
So what if the prophesies are correct in the bible and I am saying if? what has it done to improve the lives of the people? none whatsoever. if the bible say there is a huge tsunamis that occur in 26 december 2004 in Indonesia and if alot of lives are saved as a result, then I say kudos to the bible for saving lives. but then if god is almighty, why cant he do something to prevent the tsunamis from happening in the first place.
the thing I am trying to say is this, religions tend to create fear of the unknown to prey on the minds of people and it actually works. some of your christian friends, being compassionate, may preach to you to accept Jesus, so as to save you from going to hell when you die. if the religion is true and universal, then there is no need to create fear on the minds of people, believers and non believers.
Originally posted by Rooney9:all these god religion are revealing religions. what do I mean by revealing religions? It means that there are prophecies of sorts, that is able to predict am event that happens in future, before it actually happened of course.
to me its just like the same as having your fortune teller telling you that some things will happen to you in future, such as they tell you to avoid driving in december cos you might get an accident if you drive in december. the fortune teller did not tell you why you could not drive in december or how to neutralise it, just tell you if you drive in december, you will involve in an accident, thats all. the poor fellow, on hearing this, will avoid driving in december and worse, he may avoid all forms of transportation in december to avoid being involved in an accident.
So what if the prophesies are correct in the bible and I am saying if? what has it done to improve the lives of the people? none whatsoever. if the bible say there is a huge tsunamis that occur in 26 december 2004 in Indonesia and if alot of lives are saved as a result, then I say kudos to the bible for saving lives. but then if god is almighty, why cant he do something to prevent the tsunamis from happening in the first place.
the thing I am trying to say is this, religions tend to create fear of the unknown to prey on the minds of people and it actually works. some of your christian friends, being compassionate, may preach to you to accept Jesus, so as to save you from going to hell when you die. if the religion is true and universal, then there is no need to create fear on the minds of people, believers and non believers.
Well said. Agree with you totally. Instead of telling us what disasters are ahead of us, why not tell us how to prevent them ? Why eh?
the problem and issue with the concept of a creator is the inconsistencies and paradoxes.
if god created us, who created god then? if they tell you god existed in the beginning, then what is the beginning of the beginning? then there is the issue of being omnipotent. if god is almighty, can god create something he cant lift? if he cant create it, he is not almighty. if he can create it, then he also isnt almighty. see the paradox of the concept. think about it.
To add, there are groups who led a very non-progressive lifestyle (non progressive in our modern understanding), the Amish for example, but had never insisted or force their neighbours to follow their ways, or mount takeover of civic organisations/political institutions to do so
I mean i dont mind these people being going back to stone age but it should be their own problem
Well... Science has a stake in the creation of progress.
Thus I daresay science is also a religion, it may sound stupid to you but maybe god did really cause the apple to fall on newton's head... then because of some self-delusions, with people like newton and such we come out with absurds amount of 'scientific assumptions' that build today's knowledge of science.
So why is "Progressive science" is a myth? Look at people around around us and yourself, are we really living in progressive lifestyle?
If you can answer that question, then you know what things their religion provides for them.
Originally posted by HeartHunter:Well... Science has a stake in the creation of progress.
Thus I daresay science is also a religion, it may sound stupid to you but maybe god did really cause the apple to fall on newton's head... then because of some self-delusions, with people like newton and such we come out with absurds amount of 'scientific assumptions' that build today's knowledge of science.
So why is "Progressive science" is a myth? Look at people around around us and yourself, are we really living in progressive lifestyle?
If you can answer that question, then you know what things their religion provides for them.
Could you actually re-phrase your post?
I was actually trying to give a response to those who trying to put Science and Religion in a BLACK and WHITE manner (antagonistic in nature). Perhaps this is because of our educational system.
And the majority of the feedback I've perceived is that "Don't care about such people, they don't know what they are talking about, SCIENCE obviously has more utility".
And these feedback feels to me is like some sgians trying to bring them into the BLACK and WHITE light. Marking them as radicals.
previously quoted:
The way some Christians argue against science like when they pit the creation story against evolution is just pure stupidity.
In my conversations with some European Christians, they have no problems accepting evolution as scientific truth.
From my conversations with many Christians in Singapore, (probably because of the influence of the Church in America), the stupidity is glaring.
The will argue with you what is proven scientifically and call into question that which has been peer reviewed with things that some pastor, some "authority" claim to be the truth with no or no good basis.
- end quote
if everything can be used god to explain for everything and anything, then something must be very wrong with the explanations itself. its not only simpleton, but at the very core, incoherent, no logic to speak of whatsoever and lacking of science. then there are no progress and experiments to conduct, cos its god's will, god will take care of you, god loves you, god is there for you, in god we trust etc.
Rooney9's last post just underlined typical sg attitudes cultivated from our educational system.