Reason/science vs Supernatural
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Hi Laffin, if I am not wrong, you are a free thinker. I was like you who thought that after a person passed away, that is the end of the story. However, the ugly truth is that it is not the case because I have some encounters which I shall not elaborate here. I hate the truth but have to face it. I have found my religion and found peace. Sincerely hope that you will find answers and peace soon.
You mean like a Sci Fi writer John C. Wright who dared God to show Himself and had to abandon atheism when his challenge was eventually met?
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
I believe what you said. The reason why there are many followers in other religions is also because their followers' prayers were answered or else they will not stick to their religion. Of course there are times when your prayers did not come true, or else all christians on earth will live to ripe old age which is not happening all the time. Just to share with you, Buddhism taught us to get to the roots of the problem instead of keep praying whenever you face a problem. The roots of the problem we face got to do with our karma (cause and effect). You must be a good guy, that is why your prayers always come true. Once you understand about karma and know how to rectify or face with it, you will realise that you have less problems in life and things will go well along the way even without praying.
I can help him reply you. christians dun believe in karma and rebirth. all they believe is the power of their god. they believed that they will go to heaven when they die, to meet their creator and enjoy heavenly bliss forever.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
You mean like a Sci Fi writer John C. Wright who dared God to show Himself and had to abandon atheism when his challenge was eventually met?
till date, we are still awaiting for him to appear before us. why not appear in front of us to dispel the notion that god existed.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
till date, we are still awaiting for him to appear before us. why not appear in front of us to dispel the notion that god existed.
Don't ask me.
You should challenge God, ridicule Him for all you want. You must face the repercussion alone when God does exist. If God does not exist, your life will not change. In my opinion, there's no harm trying.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Don't ask me.
You should challenge God, ridicule Him for all you want. You must face the repercussion alone when God does exist. If God does not exist, your life will not change. In my opinion, there's no harm trying.
why do I need to challenge something that does not exists and lives in the figment of our imagination.
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If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail! -
everytime i read from this forum.
i find that everyone is not making sense.
why the fuck is that?
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
look who is talking. asking you for proof that god exists and you let on that the bible, the churches that do good are proof enough that god existed. if thats proof, thats a lame proof so to speak. proof means carbon dating, tv screen capturing the images of god and science concurring that god exists, has that happened yet? bible was written by men, and the good men of churches doing good things were men too. if these were considered as proof, then may I inform you thats not good enough evidence to substantiate it.
earlier someone mentioned that the onus is to proof that god exists and someone pointed out how can one proof if it doesnt exists. apparently someone here lack some common sense and logic. need I continue anymore?
you even have the cheek to claim that science has proved that god exist? can anyone backup this unabashedly claim? in which science journals that appeared scientists has proven that god existed, could you please quote me the name of the article and year of the journal?
You are such a coward and liar.....
I answered your question with the works of God thru His Church and His people....when you asked what has God done?
You said this does not means God exist and I ask you then what does it means? No reply.......
And the real issues is about all the challenge I put to you when you make all the baseless claims and lies.....I ask you to back up what you said......
You cannot even back up 1 thing you said and you said many things....
Common sens here is that if you make a claim, you back it up.....
and not you make a baseless claim and want us to prove you wrong......
In many ways, I am challenging you to make you think about what you said.....perhaps, you will search deeper if you are not living within your own paradigm like a convict in a cell sticking to your views despite having no reasons to do so....
and you resort to hiding like a coward.....
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QUESTION: You say there is no evidence for the existence of a god. But what about miracles?
ANSWER: There are many who believe that miracles are proof of gods existence. We hear wild claims that a healing has taken place but we never get an independent testimony from a medical office or a surgeon. We hear second-hand reports that someone was miraculously saved from disaster but we never get an eye-witness account of what is supposed to have happened. We hear rumours that prayer straightened a diseased body or strengthened a withered limb, but we never see X-rays or get comments from doctors or nurses. Wild claims, second-hand reports and rumours are no substitute for solid evidence and solid evidence of miracles is very rare. However, sometimes unexplained things do happen, unexpected events do occur. But our inability to explain such things does not prove the existence of gods. It only proves that our knowledge is as yet incomplete. Before the development of modern medicine, when people didn’t know what caused sickness people believed that god or the gods sent diseases as a punishment. Now we know what causes such things and when we get sick, we take medicine. In time when our knowledge of the world is more complete, we will be able to understand what causes unexplained phenomena, just as we can now understand what causes disease.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
thanks for the offer, but no thanks, thanks. I will not believe in any religion that centred on a god or many gods. I rather be a free thinker and not get trapped in a paradigm or concept that is flawed from the beginning.
that means being trapped in a paradigm or concept of being a free thinker that is flawed from the beginning.
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I remember there was a mother who lost her young daughter. She said she went to church every day trying to understand why God has taken her daughter away. Poor her, till now has not found the answer and will never will because those believe in God say that God is someone you cannot comprehend. Some told her that God loves her daughter (I think she prefers God does not love her daughter), some told her that God wants her to learn something (there is nothing you can learn from death, especially someone dear to you), some told her that she will reunite with her daughter when she dies (why not let them reunite on earth and must be in heaven?), some told her God must have a purpose (what purpose ? beyond our understanding again?) How to believe in someone whom we cannot comprehend ???????
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
I remember there was a mother who lost her young daughter. She said she went to church every day trying to understand why God has taken her daughter away. Poor her, till now has not found the answer and will never will because those believe in God say that God is someone you cannot comprehend. Some told her that God loves her daughter (I think she prefers God does not love her daughter), some told her that God wants her to learn something (there is nothing you can learn from death, especially someone dear to you), some told her that she will reunite with her daughter when she dies (why not let them reunite on earth and must be in heaven?), some told her God must have a purpose (what purpose ? beyond our understanding again?) How to believe in someone whom we cannot comprehend ???????
actually the simple answer is, death comes to all. no one can cheat or escape death. understanding this facts of life will release her from her enormous emotional pain.
everyday, people from all over the world die, from sickness, hunger, accidents and old age.
the mother is sad because she could not accept that death to her daugther has happened early in her life and also her attachment to her is very strong. she is asking why her daughter needed to die so early when other children can live to a ripe old age. some foetus do not even get the chance to get born and some infants do not survive past their year old birthday. if you ask me why, all I can explain is sickness and diseases are part and parcel living in this world. the strong can become weak one day.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
QUESTION: You say there is no evidence for the existence of a god. But what about miracles?
ANSWER: There are many who believe that miracles are proof of gods existence. We hear wild claims that a healing has taken place but we never get an independent testimony from a medical office or a surgeon. We hear second-hand reports that someone was miraculously saved from disaster but we never get an eye-witness account of what is supposed to have happened. We hear rumours that prayer straightened a diseased body or strengthened a withered limb, but we never see X-rays or get comments from doctors or nurses. Wild claims, second-hand reports and rumours are no substitute for solid evidence and solid evidence of miracles is very rare. However, sometimes unexplained things do happen, unexpected events do occur. But our inability to explain such things does not prove the existence of gods. It only proves that our knowledge is as yet incomplete. Before the development of modern medicine, when people didn’t know what caused sickness people believed that god or the gods sent diseases as a punishment. Now we know what causes such things and when we get sick, we take medicine. In time when our knowledge of the world is more complete, we will be able to understand what causes unexplained phenomena, just as we can now understand what causes disease.
Unfortunately for you, there are medically proven cases but it is just that you don't want to google and read up about them.....and even if you do, you will discount them anyway. No reasons is needed for you.
And there are also miracles that have been studied by scientists and doctors who cannot provide any concrete answers to dispute what is factual.
But what is really important for you is to think how to back up those baseless claims and lies you made....
Today, people are talking about organic food and saving our environment....going green is a big thing. We need to eat humble pie (laughin's favourite) and go back to nature....Why?
It seems like people now are dying of some kind of dieases.....instead of old age....and cancer being a No 1 killer is cased by what? Think....
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question, if god is omnipotent, can ask him to create something he cant lift? if he is unable to create it, then he is not omnipotent. if he is able to create something he is unable to lift, then he also is not omnipotent. see the logic?
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
question, if god is omnipotent, can ask him to create something he cant lift? if he is unable to create it, then he is not omnipotent. if he is able to create something he is unable to lift, then he also is not omnipotent. see the logic?
help you a little...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
and
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Omnipotent
and do stay focus and back up your baseless claims and lies.....
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Originally posted by Fortmax777:
laffin,
I am a Christian so I will tend to speak up for God. But also God has helped me in many ways and I shall share some exaples with you. God works in many ways and helps us in many ways some not even conventional.
1) Was lost sad and lonely. Life in mess, trouble with law and very depressed seems all alone in this world. Prayed for companionship, along came my GF (now my wife for coming 10 yrs).
2) NS. Kena tekan. Emotionally weak to be away from GF. Prayed for help. Posted out of unit which tekan me and got stay out vocation.
3) ORD. Lost dunno what to do. Prayed to go o/seas to pursue degree. Went o/seas to pursur degree.
4) Start degree. Lost because 3 years no study and returned all my knowledge to my Pre-U teachers liao. Prayed for wisdom. Caught up very quickly graduated with 1st Class.
5) Graduated looking for job. No income got to support my self in menatime. This one is interesting and unconventional. Prayed for Finance. Went casino won $1000 + every week for about 2 months. By the last two weeks didn't even try. Walk into casino with $500 place first bet on anything/any game (even a stupid game like Casino Wars) win once win twice win thrice go home. - 10 mins total - $1500.
6) Got interview. decided I like job. Pray for job - employed almost immediately. After employed began losing at Casino, but got God's msg that Casino was only supplying finances temporarily. So decided to stop going regularly and focus on work and family.
7) Feel that I have a very pleasant life know with good job, working hours which allow me loads of time to enjoy family life and brilliant wife also converted when she saw my testimony. Living happily ever after for now.
Cannot really ask for anything else. Maybe would like to win lottery
but won't be greedy if HE gives HE gives. If not
also happy.fortmax77,
I read your good fortune #1 - #7.
Looks like if you pray to your god, bad spell were turned into good endings. That's good for you.
May I know roughly what is your percentage of good endings over the total number of your praying/wishing ?
+ I understand it is hard to estimate, let's say it is about 1%, that's 1 hits over 100 praying. That's maybe low.
+ Or let's be optimistic, let's say 50%, that's 5 hits per 10 praying. This is too luckly, if you are in this category, I would like to be your best friend :)
+ Generally, I believe 10% is acceptable. 1 answered per 10 wishes. I am in this category and I don't need to thank any supernatural being. I thank my good fortune. I don't need to attribute my 9 other failures to any supernatural being.
What do you said when you have unanswered prayers ?
laffin
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Hi Laffin, if I am not wrong, you are a free thinker. I was like you who thought that after a person passed away, that is the end of the story. However, the ugly truth is that it is not the case because I have some encounters which I shall not elaborate here. I hate the truth but have to face it. I have found my religion and found peace. Sincerely hope that you will find answers and peace soon.
Dawnfirstlight,
maybe my earlier post with a fool made you think I am a free thinker. That was when I wanted to be open minded and asked a series of question, but that fool was too skeptical and did not want to answer my question.
So without any satisfactory explanation on the existence of supernatural being, I want to maintain my conviction of evolution and natural selection have the most convincing explanation to life. With this and of course the knowledge of religious history, I conclude that god is manmade stuff.
I think you are a religious person who felt that religious scriptures are not trustworthy and you enjoyed the spiritual strength this religion offer.
If I am right about this, you can convince yourself that you don't need a 'name' religion, you just need a righteous guiding light in your heart and you will just find peace without religion.
laffin
A quote from someone I read somewhere: "If one believes in a false idea, it is called hallucination. If many people believe in the same false idea, it is called religion."
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Originally posted by Happyinfo2:
You have pinned too much hope on miracles. Read the obituaries in the Straits Times and you will not be so naive. You will see many christians who die young, in fact too young to die.
There is another force which is greater than God and that is karma (cause and effect). I have read a lot about casue and effect, it says one of the immediate cause and effect is ill treating the parents. You observe carefully for those who have ill treated their parents, they will definitely end up with no good ending in this life. I have seen with my own eyes. This proves the existence of karma. Karma applies to everybody regardless of your faith and will never go wrong, no bias and no favourtism.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
QUESTION: You say there is no evidence for the existence of a god. But what about miracles?
ANSWER: There are many who believe that miracles are proof of gods existence. We hear wild claims that a healing has taken place but we never get an independent testimony from a medical office or a surgeon. We hear second-hand reports that someone was miraculously saved from disaster but we never get an eye-witness account of what is supposed to have happened. We hear rumours that prayer straightened a diseased body or strengthened a withered limb, but we never see X-rays or get comments from doctors or nurses. Wild claims, second-hand reports and rumours are no substitute for solid evidence and solid evidence of miracles is very rare. However, sometimes unexplained things do happen, unexpected events do occur. But our inability to explain such things does not prove the existence of gods. It only proves that our knowledge is as yet incomplete. Before the development of modern medicine, when people didn’t know what caused sickness people believed that god or the gods sent diseases as a punishment. Now we know what causes such things and when we get sick, we take medicine. In time when our knowledge of the world is more complete, we will be able to understand what causes unexplained phenomena, just as we can now understand what causes disease.
If you have done a research, you would have learned about a small town Lourdes, in France.
All claims of miraculous cures are investigated by the Lourdes Medical Bureau, established to nullify fraudulent claims of miracles.
The doctors of the Bureau can be members of any religious affiliations or none.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
why do I need to challenge something that does not exists and lives in the figment of our imagination.
Carl Sagan was an agnostic, in case someone claims that he was an atheist. To be an atheist, you have to know more than he knew.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Carl Sagan was an agnostic, in case someone claims that he was an atheist. To be an atheist, you have to know more than he knew.
googoomuck
you seems to accord ranking to an agnostic and an atheist with reference to carl sagan's knowledge.
+ an atheist do not subscribe to anyone's view, he/she is matured enough to judge thing rationally with reasoning and evidence and decide for himself/herself. For example: I don't blindly follow every words of charles darwin or carl sagan and I don't idolize them.
+ an agnostic is sitting on a fence and I have less respect for this group of people than for faith-following people.
laffin
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Originally posted by laffin123:
googoomuck
you seems to accord ranking to an agnostic and an atheist with reference to carl sagan's knowledge.
+ an atheist do not subscribe to anyone's view, he/she is matured enough to judge thing rationally with reasoning and evidence and decide for himself/herself. For example: I don't blindly follow every words of charles darwin or carl sagan and I don't idolize them.
+ an agnostic is sitting on a fence and I have less respect for this group of people than for faith-following people.
laffin
......because he was a famous scientist. He said that it's very difficult to prove or disprove the idea of a creator of the universe. Was he wrong?
An atheist knows that there's no God but does he?
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Originally posted by Happyinfo2:
well, the concept of omnipotence is flawed to begin with. this just proves one thing, you and your brethren will do whatever, just to defend the concept, however flawed or the weak arguments they may be. its plain for all to see here.
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ok...so i see proof has been provided but some ppl dun accept or see as flawed...which is y i said tat from the beginning, any discussion btw an atheist n creationist is always going to be an apple-orange one which will have no outcome and no winner...
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atheists claim there is no proof for creation...actually wad they mean is there isnt GD ENUFF proof for creation cos creationists do have proof. its juz tat the atheists feel the proof not gd enuff...
the reverse is also true...atheists claim to have proof tat God dun exist...evolutionists try to produce evidence to prove evolution. however, the creationists feel tat the proof provided is NOT GD ENUFF... so i guess at the end of the day, the issue is not whether there is proof but rather whether there is GD ENUFF proof for the respective sides...it must be noted that juz as atheists can claim the evidence provided by creationists is flawed, creationists can also do likewise...so wads the conclusion? wads gd enuf evidence to one may not be gd enuff evidence to the other...like the saying: one man's meat is another man's poison...quoting wad miracles & prophecies have said b4...''theres private proof but public proof? no way...'' the same can be said abt atheism...