Watch/listen to Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins and be enlightened :
http://dotsub.com/view/b85a7e54-9653-40b1-9d72-e36db32a81ac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwUG9aV6Ybk&feature=related
I like best a saying from Dawkins roughly as follows "everybody is actually an atheist to most gods devised by humans, some of us just go one god further."
Ya, laffin123, I remember this quote by Prof Richard Dawkins. His website, richarddawkins.net, has many more quotes of reason.
Here are more quotes of reason:
"It is far better to understand the Universe as it really is than to pretend to
a Universe as we might wish it to be"
- Carl Sagan, astronomer, astrophysicist
"Science has proof without any certainty, Creationists have certainty without any proof"- Ashley Montague
"They were wonderful stories, but the truth is so much more remarkable"
- Richard Feynman, physicist
it is always interesting to note that when someone make such a post, the assumption is Christians have never considered or read such writers/scientists... and that making such a post is a startling revelation to Christians....
Dawkins misrepresented the Bible and that's a fact.
Just to share with you an alternate view, pls watch :
http://www.tiredofbeingalive.com/watch/startling_proofs_does_god_really_exist.htm
Chin Eng, happyinfo,
There is no need to be defensive.
In essence, Charles Darwin's or Richard Dawkins' publications do not want us to blindly follow them. Their teachings want us to open our eye, open our mind, look at the evident and decide for ourselves.
laffin
Hi laughing...oops, laffin,
Not defending but just to state facts that Dawkin misrepresented the Bible........and just wonder how one's mind and eyes can be opened by misrepresented facts......
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:Hi laughing...oops, laffin,
Not defending but just to state facts that Dawkin misrepresented the Bible........and just wonder how one's mind and eyes can be opened by misrepresented facts......
Your mind can't be opened as you have pre-conceived it to be misrepresented facts.
Try 'opening your mind' in the strictest sense.
To get you started, it is wise to study the origin of the bible and its history.
laffin
Originally posted by laffin123:Your mind can't be opened as you have pre-conceived it to be misrepresented facts.
Try 'opening your mind' in the strictest sense.
To get you started, it is wise to study the origin of the bible and its history.
laffin
You don't have to be defensive.....as you said, we should open our eye, open our mind, look at the evident and decide for ourselves......
And don't see why you have this strictest pre-conceived mindset instead of looking at both views and then decide.......
Yes, Dawkin misrepresented the Bible and that's a fact. And I too agree that you should look into and have a deeper understanding of the Bible.....and not rely on what you read from anti-Christian websites and take misrepresented and twisted facts as the truth. I have given you a link and you should read those recommendations....
As you said before, you studied the Bible but could not understand it from head to toe...or something like that....and then you conclude based on your inability to understand.....and how could that gel with "in support for REASON and EVIDENCE"??
REASON and EVIDENCE is pointing to you making illogical conclusion based on your lack of understanding......
So, do go and learn more about the TRUTH that the Bible contains....and open your mind instead of being defensive over something that you admitted that your did not understand fully.
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:You don't have to be defensive.....as you said, we should open our eye, open our mind, look at the evident and decide for ourselves......
And don't see why you have this strictest pre-conceived mindset instead of looking at both views and then decide.......
Yes, Dawkin misrepresented the Bible and that's a fact. And I too agree that you should look into and have a deeper understanding of the Bible.....and not rely on what you read from anti-Christian websites and take misrepresented and twisted facts as the truth. I have given you a link and you should read those recommendations....
As you said before, you studied the Bible but could not understand it from head to toe...or something like that....and then you conclude based on your inability to understand.....and how could that gel with "in support for REASON and EVIDENCE"?? So, do go and learn more about the TRUTH that the Bible contains....
So from an idea of opening one's mind, you can drag on to include so much stuff.
I have told you I can't move beyond Genesis 4:17 and I could not understand it from head to toe. This is my inability of understanding. Can you people help me ? This verse contains no REASON and EVIDENCE. Can I still quantified TRUTH that the bible contains. Even in GENESIS chapter 1 talking about EVE and ADAM, this has so much in common with the Islamic quran. Why is there so much hate between ISLAM and CHRISTIAN ?? Are they originate from a community donkeys years ago. Earth is created in one day?? ONE DAY ???? I want to open my mind about this, can you teach me how ? The jewish, islamic and christianity originate from Abrahamic faith. Why are you people fighting ? Is this political ? And you keep on telling people here to prove the god is not real. Wait for judgement day for god to punish them who badmouthed god ? Come on if the supernatural being is real, come get us now. Don't play play wait for judgement day while your flock leaders get rich and your homosexual priests can hide behind religion. god is not real, it is manmade stuff, you want the proof? Read the history. GO READ THE HISTORY OF THE ORGIN OF RELIGION! I have studied the history, that's why I am here.
laffin
Evolution and Natural Selection, you find REASON and EVIDENCE here.
People here can attest that I had been very patience and polite in debating here.
Happyinfo2 has refused to help me to understand the bible and has been calling me an illogical person.
I want to be very fair to him or her. And I still refrain from calling him / her any nasty name yet.
Happyinfo2, come in now and have a good debate with me.
First notion: Bible contains truth. Why the book of Genesis contains so many things in common with Quran. Do you agree Quran contains to truth too? If yes, explain, If no, explain.
sincerely
laffin
Ha..ha..ha... now you said you are trying to understand? You think this is the correct platform for you to truely learn about the faith or any faith? Come on.....you are not here to understand the faith....who are you kidding?
If you are really keen to open your mind and learn, you should go and find a Church or organisation that you think will be able to help you....I can suggest to you if you pm me only if you are honest and sincere about it.....
Before you can even understand, you are making plenty of accussations and insults and yet you said you are very patience and polite??
By the way, I am not here to keep telling people to proved that God is not real....I am only asking people who claimed that to prove their case......and sad to say, none of them can back up what they said......
Still, I wonder how you can conclude when you really did not understand and that's why I said that's illogical......when you made conclusion based on something that you could not understand.
I am not trying to be rude and calling you names as you have claimed.
What good debate you want?
All I am saying here in this thread is to highlight that Dawkin misrepresented the Bible and that's a fact. And one's mind and eyes cannot be opened by misrepresented facts..........unless they make illogical conclusions.
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:Ha..ha..ha... now you said you are trying to understand? You think this is the correct platform for you to truely learn about the faith or any faith? Come on.....you are not here to understand the faith....who are you kidding?
If you are really keen to open your mind and learn, you should go and find a Church or organisation that you think will be able to help you....I can suggest to you if you pm me only if you are honest and sincere about it.....
Before you can even understand, you are making plenty of accussations and insults and yet you said you are very patience and polite??
By the way, I am not here to keep telling people to proved that God is not real....I am only asking people who claimed that to prove their case......and sad to say, none of them can back up what they said......
Still, I wonder how you can conclude when you really did not understand and that's why I said that's illogical......when you made conclusion based on something that you could not understand.
I am not trying to be rude and calling you names as you have claimed.
What good debate you want?
All I am saying here in this thread is to highlight that Dawkin misrepresented the Bible and that's a fact. And one's mind and eyes cannot be opened by misrepresented facts..........unless they make illogical conclusions.
I don't understand.
I ask a question.
Nobody can answer me.
I made a conclusion.
Some said I am illogical.
I ask a question again.
Illogical again.
I think the best statement is this:
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true" - Nietzsche
laffin
Originally posted by Which god??:Ya, laffin123, I remember this quote by Prof Richard Dawkins. His website, richarddawkins.net, has many more quotes of reason.
Here are more quotes of reason:
"It is far better to understand the Universe as it really is than to pretend to
a Universe as we might wish it to be"
- Carl Sagan, astronomer, astrophysicist"Science has proof without any certainty, Creationists have certainty without any proof"- Ashley Montague
"They were wonderful stories, but the truth is so much more remarkable"
- Richard Feynman, physicist
The quote by Carl Sagan is very subjective. How sure is he that the universe he describes as it really is, is not a universe that he wishes it to be???
Also how can Ashley Montague be so sure creationists have certainty without any proof?
And to Richard Feynman, who knows the remarkable truth that he speaks about could well be just wonderful stories too... it is all subjective... you see what you want to see.
Originally posted by laffin123:So from an idea of opening one's mind, you can drag on to include so much stuff.
I have told you I can't move beyond Genesis 4:17 and I could not understand it from head to toe. This is my inability of understanding. Can you people help me ? This verse contains no REASON and EVIDENCE. Can I still quantified TRUTH that the bible contains. Even in GENESIS chapter 1 talking about EVE and ADAM, this has so much in common with the Islamic quran. Why is there so much hate between ISLAM and CHRISTIAN ?? Are they originate from a community donkeys years ago. Earth is created in one day?? ONE DAY ???? I want to open my mind about this, can you teach me how ? The jewish, islamic and christianity originate from Abrahamic faith. Why are you people fighting ? Is this political ? And you keep on telling people here to prove the god is not real. Wait for judgement day for god to punish them who badmouthed god ? Come on if the supernatural being is real, come get us now. Don't play play wait for judgement day while your flock leaders get rich and your homosexual priests can hide behind religion. god is not real, it is manmade stuff, you want the proof? Read the history. GO READ THE HISTORY OF THE ORGIN OF RELIGION! I have studied the history, that's why I am here.
laffin
Evolution and Natural Selection, you find REASON and EVIDENCE here.
What is so hard to accept about Beresheet 4:17?
Yet to Yahweh a 1000 years is as a day to Him...
Actually the muslims hate the Jews more than they hate christians...
Actually the Jews don't want to fight, its the extremists muslims who instigate it...
And yet the whole bible is the history of the Jewish people.
If you want to know why the muslims hate the Jews so much go and read through Beresheet (or rather Genesis as it is known to you...)
Are you sure that evolution and natural selection will always be reasonable and with evidence? So far all I can see is a theory of evolution, not a fact... no one dares call evolution a fact...
Originally posted by laffin123:
I don't understand.
I ask a question.
Nobody can answer me.
I made a conclusion.
Some said I am illogical.
I ask a question again.
Illogical again.
I think the best statement is this:
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true" - Nietzsche
laffin
I know you don't understand but this is not the place to answer your question......because you will not accept anything we say....will you? Be honest lah...
And I already explained why illogical because you made conclusion based on something that you could not understand. Simple right?
Then, if you don't understand, why don't you go and find out.....learn from the source before you conclude......and don't say you studied the Bible when you did not. How's that for "not wanting to know what is true"?
And why are you so defensive when I offer an alternative view?
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:I know you don't understand but this is not the place to answer your question......because you will not accept anything we say....will you? Be honest lah...
And I already explained why illogical because you made conclusion based on something that you could not understand. Simple right?
Then, if you don't understand, why don't you go and find out.....learn from the source before you conclude......and don't say you studied the Bible when you did not. How's that for "not wanting to know what is true"?
And why are you so defensive when I offer an alternative view?
I want to find out and I am listening ... why is it possible one day can achieve so many things? Is it the super power of God that made it possible ?
Please enlightened me ....
laffin
Originally posted by breytonhartge:What is so hard to accept about Beresheet 4:17?
Yet to Yahweh a 1000 years is as a day to Him...
Actually the muslims hate the Jews more than they hate christians...
Actually the Jews don't want to fight, its the extremists muslims who instigate it...
And yet the whole bible is the history of the Jewish people.
If you want to know why the muslims hate the Jews so much go and read through Beresheet (or rather Genesis as it is known to you...)
Are you sure that evolution and natural selection will always be reasonable and with evidence? So far all I can see is a theory of evolution, not a fact... no one dares call evolution a fact...
I want to learn more... why your holy scripture scholars wrote one day instead of 1000 years ? They should have written more clearly so as to avoid confusion. Can an update edition be published? Looking forward to your reply.
sincerely
laffin
Originally posted by laffin123:I want to find out and I am listening ... why is it possible one day can achieve so many things? Is it the super power of God that made it possible ?
Please enlightened me ....
laffin
Hmm, can you enlighten me how many days would seems reasonable and why?
and do you think you are going OT here?
Come on, if you are truely keen to learn and honest about it, you shoiuld know what to do.....
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:Hmm, can you enlighten me how many days would seems reasonable and why?
and do you think you are going OT here?
Come on, if you are truely keen to learn and honest about it, you shoiuld know what to do.....
I am naively thinking the earth might take at least 100 years. Because the trees I see growing everyday will take my whole life to reach adult tree. So probably 100 years is my naive guess on the age of earth.
why is it documented a mere one day ?
Yours naively without science consideration,
laffin
PS: what is OT ?
Originally posted by laffin123:I am naively thinking the earth might take at least 100 years. Because the trees I see growing everyday will take my whole life to reach adult tree. So probably 100 years is my naive guess on the age of earth.
why is it documented a mere one day ?
Yours naively without science consideration,
laffin
PS: what is OT ?
So, we should change the Bible based on your personal naive thinking?
So somoene else suggested 1000 years, and yet there will be some with different figures...and who should we pleased?
So what if it's one day, one hundred days or one thousand years?
Does it change the fact that it is God who is the creator?
What science consideration you want to put in here?
OT - out of topic
Originally posted by laffin123:
I don't understand.
I ask a question.
Nobody can answer me.
I made a conclusion.
Some said I am illogical.
I ask a question again.
Illogical again.
I think the best statement is this:
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true" - Nietzsche
laffin
Hey I am a christian and normally I do not engage in such discussions on religions and faiths online and I do respect personal choice of belief but just to point out something here about your thought process.
You say you ask a question inside this forum, nobody can answer you, and so you made a conclusion. Is that right?
Now, by making a conclusion because nobody in this forum can answer your question is like going to a tribe deep in Africa and ask them do you know Breadtalk? And just because they dun know the answer or could not answer you, does not mean you can draw the conclusion that Breadtalk does not exist. Ridiculous it may sound, but I think you get what I mean.
Nobody can answer you in this forum on questions about God does not mean God does not exist. It only simply means nobody can answer you because they either do not know or they do not know. How would that translate into a conclusion otherwise?
Vice versa, does not mean if someone can answer questions, it means God is real. It just mean that person can answer the question.
So if you conclude that God is fake/not real/a hippie/a junkie or making any sort of conclusions just because people inside this FORUM cannot answer your questions, I suggest, and just a suggestion, refine your thought process.
going to a church and talking to pastors or going to apologetics forums would probably help you to "conclude" better and more credibly.
Originally posted by gasband:Hey I am a christian and normally I do not engage in such discussions on religions and faiths online and I do respect personal choice of belief but just to point out something here about your thought process.
You say you ask a question inside this forum, nobody can answer you, and so you made a conclusion. Is that right?
Now, by making a conclusion because nobody in this forum can answer your question is like going to a tribe deep in Africa and ask them do you know Breadtalk? And just because they dun know the answer or could not answer you, does not mean you can draw the conclusion that Breadtalk does not exist. Ridiculous it may sound, but I think you get what I mean.
Nobody can answer you in this forum on questions about God does not mean God does not exist. It only simply means nobody can answer you because they either do not know or they do not know. How would that translate into a conclusion otherwise?
Vice versa, does not mean if someone can answer questions, it means God is real. It just mean that person can answer the question.
So if you conclude that God is fake/not real/a hippie/a junkie or making any sort of conclusions just because people inside this FORUM cannot answer your questions, I suggest, and just a suggestion, refine your thought process.
going to a church and talking to pastors or going to apologetics forums would probably help you to "conclude" better and more credibly.
I am trying to find out more, if no one can explain here, perhaps we should discuss more about it here.
If no one wants to talk about it, fine, I go find the right avenue.
My objective is still: I am curious and hence I want to learn more about the world.
Hi happyinfo
Please don't OT me, let's talk more.
My science consideration is the report from carbon dating. I removed this idea totally and guessed 100 years should be okay. Okay, let's ignore all the days verses and earth creation and stuff, how can I feel the presence of god ? So far, I have not experience it.
laffin
Originally posted by laffin123:I am trying to find out more, if no one can explain here, perhaps we should discuss more about it here.
If no one wants to talk about it, fine, I go find the right avenue.
My objective is still: I am curious and hence I want to learn more about the world.
Hi happyinfo
Please don't OT me, let's talk more.
My science consideration is the report from carbon dating. I removed this idea totally and guessed 100 years should be okay. Okay, let's ignore all the days verses and earth creation and stuff, how can I feel the presence of god ? So far, I have not experience it.
laffin
Hey, its good to want to know more. But its not fair to make conclusions based on the responses here since this is a forum and a more social platforum rather than a religious authority.
I have never talked to you before and so do not want to make assumptions about you and your motvies but the fact remains that this is a social forum and will never be a good platform for serious or sincere discussions on these issues. Thus, of course you can still ask, but if you are serious to get answers, go talk to the people who are authorities on this.
Cheers!
Originally posted by gasband:
Hey, its good to want to know more. But its not fair to make conclusions based on the responses here since this is a forum and a more social platforum rather than a religious authority.I have never talked to you before and so do not want to make assumptions about you and your motvies but the fact remains that this is a social forum and will never be a good platform for serious or sincere discussions on these issues. Thus, of course you can still ask, but if you are serious to get answers, go talk to the people who are authorities on this.
Cheers!
Maybe we have to try to hold a serious talk here. Otherwise, this forum becomes very shallow.
On a side note: I find that sgforums.com has the world class standard discussion in public bus and train. It is amazing to read some subtle details of bus/train that I could never see myself. :D
laffin