Judaism reveals Christianity scripture flaws
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Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
Wah milo and youayu. both response almost in minutes of each other. Same person ah?The point is Im quite surprise by your "witty" oneliners. I am joker sometimes but seriously is this topic remotely funny at all?
Or you guys just trolls? Judging by the hour you log in....possibly.
Just a couple of pissing trolls like me. -
Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
Happyinfo2
I dont agree with Herzog_Zwei. However, its ok. I am here to reclaim the understanding of God but to put a stop to christianity obvious tactical preaching to believers which naturally will make them alienate life further and ultimately dont belief in God like some here has rightfully voiced out. They are half right that christianity is full of lies and contradiction - they have done their research and common sense do prevail. But if they dont hold a grudge against god and persist further to read in detail the torah or what the christians try to make it insignificant as possible "OLD" testament (god say my LAW is FOREVER and they sneakily say old) - they will find that GOD of torah is the ultimate one and no other dared to declare so(im open to other religions discussion to post here if they have info on supremacy claims).
BTW, i am open for opinions still cos I am humble enough to listen and discuss. This open mentality has not only freed me from christianity's vicious programming stronghold of verses on peoples reading and understanding, it has led me finally back to God.
An an example of truth - do you know if you follow the dietary laws in the deuteronomy chapters, your health will improve trememdously? dont have to believe me. try it yourself.
And when you realise its good for you, you wonder - why you anyhow eat what Apostle peter's strange say in a dream of animals dropping down from heaven verses? blindly eating pork and shell fish and all that is unclean. End up having a high chance of cancer and go to Jesus and pray for miracle. Do you get the flaw of christian's teachings?
I think you went way out of my simple comments....
Herzog_Zwei made a simple statement : "Simply put, religion is nonsense to hoodwink the simple people."
And your response was : " and they did it to millions........."
So your agreement is quite clear isn't it?
Now, you said you disagree with Herzog_Zwei? I am confused....
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and and and talking about troll and clone..
look at your post then tell me whos the clone and troll
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Originally posted by Happyinfo2:
Excuse me, Herzog Zwei said :"religion is nonsense to hoodwink the simple people" and that include Judaism.....and it seems like you agreed with him. I.E. Judaism is nonsense.
Judaism is nonsense, Chritianity is nonsense, Islam is nonsense, etc..... -
Originally posted by youyayu:
and and and talking about troll and clone..
look at your post then tell me whos the clone and troll
Shall we have a pissing troll competition? -
Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
Hi Laffin123 and Happyinfo2,
First :
Its obvious you both are hijacking this thread intention by misdirecting it about other things.
Second :
either you join in and discuss or I have no choice to politely ask you both to create your own threads
third :
It highly possible you guys are from that special club, you know the arrogant symbol in the back of the US one dollar bill ppl. If you are then I really cant imagine when judgement day comes. Because you are not the slightest curious about the english text cheating in the bible which showed that the jews are the final ppl to ask.
Instead you jump to from
point A: reject christianity
to point C: god is not real.
and conveniently side step the most important point B: so what are the righteous jews finally telling us in their website. Hello? The jews wrote the book. the christian hijack it.
Sori but no intenetion to hijack your thread. You can continue to spread Judaism.......
But can I asked why is it necessary to be anti-Christian in the process leh? Is it in the torah? Or is this what you mean by actions of "the righteous jews"? Or is this what God is teaching you to do?
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Shall we have a pissing troll competition?nt a bad idea
now i know why hitler wana kill the jews
maybe ts will say cos hitler know the truth behind and want silence the jews
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Originally posted by youyayu:
nt a bad idea
now i know why hitler wana kill the jews
maybe ts will say cos hitler know the truth behind and want silence the jews
Maybe Hitler is also a pissing troll himself....Our target is the High Heavens.......
Piss high high and Shoot for Yaweh/God/Allah/whatever they got there!
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Herzog_Zwei,
Ahhh, slowly showing your horns eh.this will be the moment I will start ignore fools lest i be the fool.
All of you either idiots or damn sinister, bcos none you even want to discuss so much evidence on messiahtruth.com which showed many brilliant exposing of christianity downright contradiction conveniently summarized for you in the first page. Not even one comment?eh brudders, too obvious la.
Dont worry. I will start the ball rolling for those others who have bothered about the bible accuracy good for you. cos I am very sure www.messiahtruth.com is direct and cut to the chase...
I will start with a brilliant topic on jesus genealogy
Jesus' Genealogy
"And not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculations rather than the divine training that is known by faith."
1 Timothy 1:4 (NRS)Most Christians are not learned in Jewish law, and are thus unaware of the triune (pardon the expression) nature of the genealogical problem associated with claiming Jesus as the Messiah. However, since the Christian claim is that Jesus is the JEWISH Messiah, then we must put the case under JEWISH scrutiny, and see if it fits under JEWISH law. The following is an examination of the genealogy of the man whom Christians call Lord and Savior.
Messiah is an anglicized version of the Hebrew word "Moshiach," which means "anointed." We call the future king the Messiah because all kings are anointed.
One of the simplest requirements for being the Messiah is the lineage. In the Jewish scriptures we see prophecies of a king from David's line sitting on the throne of Israel once more:
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the LORD their G-d, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (KJV)
David had been given an oath from the Almighty that the throne of Israel would always belong to his line, which we find in the Jewish Bible repeatedly:
Jeremiah 33:17 For thus said HASHEM: There shall not be cut off from David a man who sits on the throne of the House of Israel. [18] And for the Kohanim, the Levites, there will never be cut off a man from before Me who offers elevation-offerings and burns meal-offerings and performs feast-offerings all the days. [19] The word of HASHEM came to Jeremiah, saying: [20] Thus said HASHEM: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night would not come in their proper times, [21] so too could My covenant be annulled with David, My servant, so that he would not have a descendant reigning on his throne, or [My covenant] with the Levites and the Kohanim, My attendants. (Artscroll)
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (KJV)So, from here we see that G-d took an oath that the throne would always belong to David and his descendants. However, the oath was supplemented by another pledge:
1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)
So we see, any man who would sit on the throne must not only be a descendant of King David, but specifically a descendant of David’s son, Solomon. This requirement was made even more stringent in the days prior to the Babylonian exile. Jeconiah, King of Judah, was a wicked king, and his actions pushed G-d too far. G-d punished Jeconiah, also known as Jehoiachin or Coniah:
Jeremiah 22:24 [As] I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence; [25] And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand [of them] whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans. [26] And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die. [27] But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return. [28] [Is] this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? Wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? [29] O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD. [30] Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. (KJV)
This devastating curse effectively removes all descendants of Jeconiah from the royal line. So from the verses listed above we see that anyone who would sit as king must be descended from King Solomon but not descended from King Jeconiah. We see that this curse is binding, because after Jeconiah was deposed, instead of the throne being handed to his son, it passed to Zedekiah, his uncle. No descendant of Jeconiah ever held the throne, or ever can hold the throne. His grandson, Zerubbabel, held power granted by G-d, but was never king.
The New Testament makes the messianic claim for Jesus, and as such, the New Testament gives a detailed genealogy in the first chapter of the very first book, the Gospel of Matthew:
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias; [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: (KJV)
Matthew defeated his own purpose by including Jeconiah (spelled Jechonias by the KJV) in his listing. Further complicating this matter is the virgin birth, which is claimed by Matthew 1:18-23. Because the virgin birth is substantiated by a misused excerpt of Isaiah (see related essay) there is no reason to believe that it was actually prophesied, and even less to believe it to be true. Furthermore, it defeats the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. In Jewish law, genealogy is traced specifically through the father, not the mother.
Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of [their] names, every male by their polls; (KJV)
Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first [day] of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. (KJV)With genealogies in the Bible, we see person A, son of person B, son of person C, etc. This is because Jewish descent is traced through our fathers. If a Levitical priest married a woman from the tribe of Judah, their children would be of the tribe of Levi.
Not having a human father prevents anyone from claiming the throne.
The Christian Rebuttal
Different Christians have shown a great deal of savvy in trying to deflect attention away from the two gaping problems listed above. None of their solutions, however, hold water. Here are some samples:
1) The virgin birth prevents Joseph from passing on his cursed lineage to Jesus, thereby allowing Jesus to sit on the throne. This is the answer proposed by apologists like Josh McDowell. Because the virgin birth undermines the notion of Jesus being the Messiah, one is forced to consider this as if Joseph passed on the genealogy through rights of adoption, even though such rights do not exist.
2) The claim is made that the curse was not to be taken literally. The beginning of Jeremiah 22:30 reads "Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days..." From this they point to the fact that Jeconiah did know prosperity, and that he did indeed have children, so that means G-d didn’t mean the curse to be as devastating as it actually is. This is pointing away from the end of verse 30. "For no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah." This portion of the verse makes it clear what was meant. Jeconiah did indeed have children, but those children would be forbidden from sitting on the throne. "Write ye this man childless" is simply a metaphor here.
3) The claim is made that the curse was annulled by G-d. Christians refer to the following passage:Haggai 2:23 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)
G-d used the same term with Zerubbabel, a descendant of Jeconiah, that He used with Jeconiah, a "signet ring." Christians conclude from this that the curse was annulled. However, a closer examination will reveal that this is certainly not the case. The curse begins with an oath. "As I live, saith the LORD." How does the Lord live? He lives eternally. G-d did indeed show favor to Zerubbabel, and might even have instated Zerubbabel as king, if not for the curse the Almighty placed on Jeconiah. The Almighty took oaths. Are we to believe that the Almighty would revoke His oaths? The problem with this is twofold.
a. If the virgin birth is true (which is less likely than I can adequately describe, given that a mistranslated prophecy was taken out of context to "prove" it) that would mean that G-d took the throne away from David’s house, which would mean G-d violated an oath.
b. The curse of Jeconiah taints Joseph’s line, so that if you theorize adoption (which is without scriptural backing or precedent) you trace Joseph back to Jeconiah, cursed by G-d under another of G-d’s oaths.4) Another Christian proposed a solution to this problem along the lines of "Don’t you think G-d would have it in His heart to show mercy to Jeconiah’s line?" My answer is two-fold: a) NO, it was a curse, and we see that it was eternal by the fact that none of Jeconiah’s descendants sat on the throne. b) If you theorize that G-d showed mercy provide your evidence within the text. The needs of Christian theology predicate this solution, rather than the facts.
5) Christians believe they have found the answer to this problem with the following: In chapter three of the Gospel of Luke, we see a genealogy of Jesus which lacks Jeconiah in the listing. Strangely enough, this genealogy is attributed to Joseph as well. Apologists have asserted that this is the genealogy of Mary. They claim that it is through Mary’s line that Jesus is linked to David, and thus the virgin birth problem and the Jeconiah problem are solved, right?Wrong. Let us explain why this is not a viable solution:
1) The genealogy in Luke’s Gospel specifically says Joseph, not Mary.
2) The genealogy of Mary is completely irrelevant, as lineage is through the father, not the mother.
3) Luke made a critical gaff in his genealogical listing. The listing doesn’t include King Solomon:Luke 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David, (KJV)
Luke’s listing proclaims Jesus the descendant of Nathan, not Solomon, making Luke’s genealogy a disqualifying factor as well. (See 1 Chronicles 22 excerpt above) BOTH genealogies we find in the New Testament Jesus from being the Messiah.
1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do]. (KJV)
Why is this verse here, if not to get people to point away from the fairly obvious problems the gospels contain?
In Summation:
1) If the virgin birth is true (which is highly unlikely since it goes against the grain of supporting Jesus’ messianic claim) then Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
2) If you trace Jesus' line through Joseph (by which you claim Jesus inherits the throne by adoption) in Matthew's genealogy, then you run into the curse of Jeconiah, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
3) If you trace Jesus’ line through Luke's genealogy (regardless of whether you attribute it to Joseph or Mary) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because it doesn't include King Solomon; it includes his brother, Nathan, eliminating any legitimate claim to the throne.
Jesus' genealogy, as we have it in the Christian Scriptures, does not allow him to be the Messiah. This point cannot be stressed strongly enough. No other "prophecies" one thinks Jesus fulfilled are relevant without this crucial brick in the wall. -
TS is just a new type of troll....
TS is the religious troll
Level: 99
Power:Ultimate
Weakness: None
Reputation: On a par with the Tank Troll
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The Jews are waiting for their future messiah.
The Chrisitans are waiting for the second coming of their messiah.
Let them all wait.
Not need to study the scriptures until PHD( permanent head damage)
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Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
Herzog_Zwei,
Ahhh, slowly showing your horns eh.this will be the moment I will start ignore fools lest i be the fool.
All of you either idiots or damn sinister, bcos none you even want to discuss so much evidence on messiahtruth.com which showed many brilliant exposing of christianity downright contradiction conveniently summarized for you in the first page. Not even one comment?eh brudders, too obvious la.
Dont worry. I will start the ball rolling for those others who have bothered about the bible accuracy good for you. cos I am very sure www.messiahtruth.com is direct and cut to the chase...
I will start with a brilliant topic on jesus genealogy
Jesus' Genealogy
"And not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculations rather than the divine training that is known by faith."
1 Timothy 1:4 (NRS)Most Christians are not learned in Jewish law, and are thus unaware of the triune (pardon the expression) nature of the genealogical problem associated with claiming Jesus as the Messiah. However, since the Christian claim is that Jesus is the JEWISH Messiah, then we must put the case under JEWISH scrutiny, and see if it fits under JEWISH law. The following is an examination of the genealogy of the man whom Christians call Lord and Savior.
Messiah is an anglicized version of the Hebrew word "Moshiach," which means "anointed." We call the future king the Messiah because all kings are anointed.
One of the simplest requirements for being the Messiah is the lineage. In the Jewish scriptures we see prophecies of a king from David's line sitting on the throne of Israel once more:
David had been given an oath from the Almighty that the throne of Israel would always belong to his line, which we find in the Jewish Bible repeatedly:
So, from here we see that G-d took an oath that the throne would always belong to David and his descendants. However, the oath was supplemented by another pledge:
So we see, any man who would sit on the throne must not only be a descendant of King David, but specifically a descendant of David’s son, Solomon. This requirement was made even more stringent in the days prior to the Babylonian exile. Jeconiah, King of Judah, was a wicked king, and his actions pushed G-d too far. G-d punished Jeconiah, also known as Jehoiachin or Coniah:
This devastating curse effectively removes all descendants of Jeconiah from the royal line. So from the verses listed above we see that anyone who would sit as king must be descended from King Solomon but not descended from King Jeconiah. We see that this curse is binding, because after Jeconiah was deposed, instead of the throne being handed to his son, it passed to Zedekiah, his uncle. No descendant of Jeconiah ever held the throne, or ever can hold the throne. His grandson, Zerubbabel, held power granted by G-d, but was never king.
The New Testament makes the messianic claim for Jesus, and as such, the New Testament gives a detailed genealogy in the first chapter of the very first book, the Gospel of Matthew:
Matthew defeated his own purpose by including Jeconiah (spelled Jechonias by the KJV) in his listing. Further complicating this matter is the virgin birth, which is claimed by Matthew 1:18-23. Because the virgin birth is substantiated by a misused excerpt of Isaiah (see related essay) there is no reason to believe that it was actually prophesied, and even less to believe it to be true. Furthermore, it defeats the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. In Jewish law, genealogy is traced specifically through the father, not the mother.
With genealogies in the Bible, we see person A, son of person B, son of person C, etc. This is because Jewish descent is traced through our fathers. If a Levitical priest married a woman from the tribe of Judah, their children would be of the tribe of Levi.
Not having a human father prevents anyone from claiming the throne.
The Christian Rebuttal
Different Christians have shown a great deal of savvy in trying to deflect attention away from the two gaping problems listed above. None of their solutions, however, hold water. Here are some samples:
1) The virgin birth prevents Joseph from passing on his cursed lineage to Jesus, thereby allowing Jesus to sit on the throne. This is the answer proposed by apologists like Josh McDowell. Because the virgin birth undermines the notion of Jesus being the Messiah, one is forced to consider this as if Joseph passed on the genealogy through rights of adoption, even though such rights do not exist.
2) The claim is made that the curse was not to be taken literally. The beginning of Jeremiah 22:30 reads "Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days..." From this they point to the fact that Jeconiah did know prosperity, and that he did indeed have children, so that means G-d didn’t mean the curse to be as devastating as it actually is. This is pointing away from the end of verse 30. "For no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah." This portion of the verse makes it clear what was meant. Jeconiah did indeed have children, but those children would be forbidden from sitting on the throne. "Write ye this man childless" is simply a metaphor here.
3) The claim is made that the curse was annulled by G-d. Christians refer to the following passage:G-d used the same term with Zerubbabel, a descendant of Jeconiah, that He used with Jeconiah, a "signet ring." Christians conclude from this that the curse was annulled. However, a closer examination will reveal that this is certainly not the case. The curse begins with an oath. "As I live, saith the LORD." How does the Lord live? He lives eternally. G-d did indeed show favor to Zerubbabel, and might even have instated Zerubbabel as king, if not for the curse the Almighty placed on Jeconiah. The Almighty took oaths. Are we to believe that the Almighty would revoke His oaths? The problem with this is twofold.
4) Another Christian proposed a solution to this problem along the lines of "Don’t you think G-d would have it in His heart to show mercy to Jeconiah’s line?" My answer is two-fold: a) NO, it was a curse, and we see that it was eternal by the fact that none of Jeconiah’s descendants sat on the throne. b) If you theorize that G-d showed mercy provide your evidence within the text. The needs of Christian theology predicate this solution, rather than the facts.
5) Christians believe they have found the answer to this problem with the following: In chapter three of the Gospel of Luke, we see a genealogy of Jesus which lacks Jeconiah in the listing. Strangely enough, this genealogy is attributed to Joseph as well. Apologists have asserted that this is the genealogy of Mary. They claim that it is through Mary’s line that Jesus is linked to David, and thus the virgin birth problem and the Jeconiah problem are solved, right?Wrong. Let us explain why this is not a viable solution:
Luke’s listing proclaims Jesus the descendant of Nathan, not Solomon, making Luke’s genealogy a disqualifying factor as well. (See 1 Chronicles 22 excerpt above) BOTH genealogies we find in the New Testament Jesus from being the Messiah.
Why is this verse here, if not to get people to point away from the fairly obvious problems the gospels contain?
In Summation:
1) If the virgin birth is true (which is highly unlikely since it goes against the grain of supporting Jesus’ messianic claim) then Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
2) If you trace Jesus' line through Joseph (by which you claim Jesus inherits the throne by adoption) in Matthew's genealogy, then you run into the curse of Jeconiah, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
3) If you trace Jesus’ line through Luke's genealogy (regardless of whether you attribute it to Joseph or Mary) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because it doesn't include King Solomon; it includes his brother, Nathan, eliminating any legitimate claim to the throne.Jesus' genealogy, as we have it in the Christian Scriptures, does not allow him to be the Messiah. This point cannot be stressed strongly enough. No other "prophecies" one thinks Jesus fulfilled are relevant without this crucial brick in the wall.
this is more lol then saying jesus have a kid with magdalene
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Originally posted by youyayu:
this is more lol then saying jesus have a kid with magdalene
Is this considered infidelity or adultery? -
123
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For those who's heart was rotten from birth and have not repent in his heart and seek truth and god will end up rotten or with other mystery religion because god will not touch or show them the way. I have repented not by Jesus but by myself. And i have heard the voice.If you belong to that club, you should consider backing down, you dont want to mess with me.
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven."
Credibility of Miraculous Claims
Exodus 20:22 (KJV)Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all make claims of miraculous events. Because all three religions are diametrically opposed to one another, we need to examine the fundamentals of all three, examine their differences, and determine what makes them different, and what makes the claims of one of the three the most likely to be true. Proving G-d’s existence is not something that can be done objectively, but the likelihood of His existence can be. Likewise, we can use similar logic and determine which of the three religions is most likely the truth.
You can divide all the religions this planet has ever known and put them into two categories: those that claim national revelation, and those that claim personal revelation. Obviously, national revelation is more convincing and more believable than personal revelation, or the claims of revelation made by a small group of people.
How many religions in the history of this planet make the claim of revelation based on one or a small group of people? If you study world religions carefully, you’ll find that this category includes every religion except one. What is the one religion to make the claim of national revelation?IT IS JUDAISM
Judaism is the only faith that comes from the line of "you all saw what happened here today, so tell your children, and their children." All the other religions are of the "I (or the few of us) know the good news, now we have to tell everyone else." This is not very convincing, especially when you try to take into account that it groups together with every other religion on the planet. Take a moment to absorb how powerful a fact that is. There are those who would say that this is not a big deal, that anyone could have faked a nation-wide revelation. This is simply not logical. If it were possible to fool an entire national population into believing they had witnessed something they had not in fact witnessed, surely other religions would claim such miracles.
Let us examine this from another angle. If the religion that later came to be called Judaism was based simply on the miracles recorded in the Book of Genesis (the flood which left only a handful of witnesses according to its own account, the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah which was only witnessed by a few people according to that account as well) it would be no different than the other religions of this planet. Judaism simply would not have been founded on a basis of proof any more credible than others.
However, the events in the Book of Exodus successfully set Judaism apart from the rest.Exodus 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. [38] And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. (KJV)
We see that there were six hundred thousand Jewish men, not counting women, children, and the Egyptians who joined the people, described in verse 38 as a mixed multitude. Considering that having more than one wife was the norm of the time, and that each family likely had many children, we are easily talking about (in the least) over a million people.
Why is noting this so important? The answer is simple. Imagine you’re sitting in school one day, and the kid sitting next to you tells you that your grandfather, and the grandfathers of all your friends saw great tremendous plagues in Egypt, and saw an entire sea split with walls on both side, the ground becoming dry, and all the people walking through it. The first thing that would come to mind is That’s amazing! I wonder why my grandfather never told me that! Upon asking, your friend tells you his grandfather told him the story. When you go home and ask your parents about it, you find out that your friend’s grandfather is a senile 90 year-old man. It is simply impossible for an entire national population to come up with a collective memory of an event like the exodus unless it had happened.
When the Lord spoke to Moses from amidst the burning bush, the Israelites only found reason to believe his claims once signs had been shown to them that they experienced it personally. Moreover, the events of the exodus, the splitting of the sea, the receiving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, were things the entire population collectively experienced, giving the proof to them firsthand, instead of having to rely on tales told to them by others. While the argument can be made that with the first generation dying in the desert with the demise of all first-hand witnesses the claim goes up in smoke, the entire next generation was given the testimony of those first hand witnesses, and that entire second generation believed because the entire first generation couldn’t have conspired a story that big. The second generation itself was the proof that the witness of the first was reliable.Exodus 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. [31] And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses. (KJV)
Exodus 14:30-31 shows us that after the splitting of the Red Sea only then did the people believe in the Lord and believe that Moses spoke for Him.
Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. (KJV)
This passage relates how the Lord instructed Moses on how the Lord would present the Torah so that the entire people would hear it, and that the entire people would know and believe that the Lord spoke to Moses, and they would believe it forever.
Deuteronomy 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that G-d created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? [33] Did ever people hear the voice of G-d speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live? [34] Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? [35] Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is G-d; there is none else beside him. [36] Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire. (KJV)
Deuteronomy 4:32-36 issues an open challenge to the people who would start other religions to come up with a story this reliable.
No other entire nation has ever heard the voice of G-d from amidst the fire, meaning that G-d did this to prove to everyone that He is the One, and that the Torah is true.
G-d never did this for the New Testament, and He never did this for the Qu’ran. Furthermore, this passage of the Torah commands something that the New Testament and Qu'ran don't ever bother to ask. Verse 35 says, "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is G-d; there is none else beside him." The Torah demands knowledge. The New Testament and the Qu'ran demand faith.
Think about it. Claiming that Jesus had appeared, risen from the dead, to the entire nation of Israel would have given Christianity a stable enough foundation to make it even somewhat credible. But the authors knew that such claims would immediately be taken for lies because there would be no corroborating evidence.
In other words, in the New Testament and Qu'ran we have two other documents, which are claimed as being Divine, but, plainly put, lack the Divine signature.
Secular bible critics have tried for years to come up with some rational explanation for the fact that Judaism is the only religion that is backed by such a reliable tale. The fact of the matter is that for all their efforts, the field has yet to come up with a unified opinion on the subject. It just stands as a physical impossibility to fool millions of people that their entire ancestry heard the Lord speak. -
Originally posted by Mr Milo:
TS is just a new type of troll....
TS is the religious troll
Level: 99
Power:Ultimate
Weakness: None
Reputation: On a par with the Tank Troll
Religious Troll has just 1 weakness:Pissing Trolls -
Originally posted by Mr Milo:
Is this considered infidelity or adultery?
Adultery is when Mary got fucked by God and not know it. -
that god is also your god that screwed yr ass too. and made u do this troll job...boohoo
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God, fear me...
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what the fuck is fear. If u had guts u would msg me personally now. pussy.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Adultery is when Mary got fucked by God and not know it.
wah, then that is called rape liao....oh my...
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fight fight fight
i love to see fights in this forum
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a flaming war?
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go back to your coleman street la and than trying to taunt ppl in this website. fucking spineless lackeys.
In fact, it kinda obvious theres only one of you. In the morning, suddenly 3 random fuckers started writing in just between minutes of each other and then disappeared.
Pathetic! want to bluff ppl also must got standard lar.
sori, but I am going out with my lovely girlfriend, blessed by god while you continue to troll here and try to deceive the public that there either Christianity is real/fake or god is fake. You guys will never admit that the jews are the chosen on r that god is real bcos that is the truth you would not want the public to know.
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Originally posted by KnowMyPower:
go back to your coleman street la and than trying to taunt ppl in this website. fucking spineless lackeys.
In fact, it kinda obvious theres only one of you. In the morning, suddenly 3 random fuckers started writing in just between minutes of each other and then disappeared.
Pathetic! want to bluff ppl also must got standard lar.
sori, but I am going out with my lovely girlfriend, blessed by god while you continue to troll here and try to deceive the public that there either Christianity is real/fake or god is fake. You guys will never admit that the jews are the chosen on r that god is real bcos that is the truth you would not want the public to know.
Not random, we are the usual arseholes who tend to post in shoutbox about nonsense topics. I admit that all people are damned by god....