Originally posted by »¤ Liquified ¤« ...:just to inquire,wud did you meant by:
Everyone has their own interpretation of Bible. For a non-believer, it is easy to see that the Bible cannot hold on its own.
your first sentence is fine, each and every person has their own interpretation of the bible, but your next sentence just proposes your ideology dat you as a non-believer, understands the whole bible from head to toe and definatly 100% understands what it is trying to say? are you trying to say that? because if you are, i think it is merely ignorance your displaying.
how can a non-believer say it is easy to see that the bible cannot hold on its own? on what grounds are you basing this idea on? on the grounds are you saying that you understand the whole bible but you still see that it cannot hold on its own?
sorry if im grumbling, but i just dont feel comfortable with you saying this sentence and i hope that you wud change it if you understand what im trying to explain...=/
i personally agree on what laurence82 said, there is no physical prove of religion, but that goes with any other religion, i mean, non-believers can also be considered as a religion in some aspects if you think about it properly. the only way to solve these disputes is to actually apply ours in faith, you dun have to come to another religion's forum and post things that you know will gain flaming from, if you actually do that, all your doing is bring bad name into your religion. in christianity, god does tell us that in certain times where non-believers do go over-board, we should do something about it, but this isnt the time yet.
Hi Liquified, I have many points below (itemized to avoid confusion):
(1) My background
Yes, I have studied bible in the past. I cannot say I understand it from head to toe. Anyway, who in the world can claim they understand 100% of it. Further, I studied the origin of the bible.
(2) "bible cannot hold on its own"
If you read it with an open mind. This book creates more confusion. I don't have to explicitly tell you which verse. You will know which verse if you read with an open mind and read it critically. (If you realy want me to pinpoint, please read the first messgae of this thread by Ex-christian. I can also add more, but I don't want to.)
(3) religion creates tension
Quote
in christianity, god does tell us that in certain times where non-believers do go over-board, we should do something about it, but this isnt the time yet.
Unquote.
Read your quote again, self-explanatory.
Even, jihad and the like is messing with the peace of the world.
(4) religion creates a defensive mind
Please refer to pint (3) above.
(5) I want peace in this world
I came in and participated in this discussion not to create tension. I want people to use REASON and show TOLERANCE to other people.
(6) I advocate EVIDENT
EVIDENT is the answer. Today, we are seeing things evolving. Example: virus. That is why I want to say point (2) to everybody.
Yours sincerely
laffin
(2) "bible cannot hold on its own"
This depends on who you are asking and how you are reading it. if the Bible cannot hold on it's own, that the entire Christian faith would have collapse long time ago. However it is still growing and if the statistics are correct, religion as a whole is doing well. Herein, I am not saying that YOU should believe in the Bible.
(3) religion creates tension
On the contrary, it's power struggle that creates tension. If people can be bother to agree to disagree, there is no tension.
(4) religion creates a defensive mind
Religion creates a defensive insomuch as in Point 3, that if people can agree to disagree, than there is really nothing defensive. If you ask a question (genuinely), I can give an answer. Is that being defensive? However if your question is asked with the intent to offend, then a rebuttal comes in, can that be considered as defensive? You thing atheism doesn't create a defensive mind?
(5) I want peace in this world
We, and all Miss Universe, want peace in this world.
(6) I advocate EVIDENT
The correct word is EVIDENCE. Everyone wants evidence, however what is evidence to you may not be evidence to me. By saying that you advocate evidence, are you saying that religious people live without evidence?
Originally posted by laffin123:Hi Liquified, I have many points below (itemized to avoid confusion):
(1) My background
Yes, I have studied bible in the past. I cannot say I understand it from head to toe. Anyway, who in the world can claim they understand 100% of it. Further, I studied the origin of the bible.
(2) "bible cannot hold on its own"
If you read it with an open mind. This book creates more confusion. I don't have to explicitly tell you which verse. You will know which verse if you read with an open mind and read it critically. (If you realy want me to pinpoint, please read the first messgae of this thread by Ex-christian. I can also add more, but I don't want to.)
(3) religion creates tension
Quote
in christianity, god does tell us that in certain times where non-believers do go over-board, we should do something about it, but this isnt the time yet.
Unquote.
Read your quote again, self-explanatory.
Even, jihad and the like is messing with the peace of the world.
(4) religion creates a defensive mind
Please refer to pint (3) above.
(5) I want peace in this world
I came in and participated in this discussion not to create tension. I want people to use REASON and show TOLERANCE to other people.
(6) I advocate EVIDENT
EVIDENT is the answer. Today, we are seeing things evolving. Example: virus. That is why I want to say point (2) to everybody.
Yours sincerely
laffin
If you hold the same views as Ex-Christian (as you mentioned in point 2), then there are enough here to tell you that your views are not in line with what it really is. It also means that like Ex Christains, your views are misguided and so are your reasoning as far as the Christian faith is concerned.
Now, you claimed to have studied the Bible and Ex Christian claimed he almost become a pastor..........
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:If you hold the same views as Ex-Christian (as you mentioned in point 2), then there are enough here to tell you that your views are not in line with what it really is. It also means that like Ex Christains, your views are misguided and so are your reasoning as far as the Christian faith is concerned.
Now, you claimed to have studied the Bible and Ex Christian claimed he almost become a pastor..........
maybe studied the Bible means Bible Study....?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:maybe studied the Bible means Bible Study....?
Actually, it dosen't matter because he already said "I cannot say I understand it from head to toe. Anyway, who in the world can claim they understand 100% of it".
So the EVIDENT is that like Ex Christian, he does not understand and yet his reasoning is that Christianity is no good and the bible (which he cannot understand) "cannot hold on it's own".
So, I aksed a 5 years old and he laughed.....
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:Actually, it dosen't matter because he already said "I cannot say I understand it from head to toe. Anyway, who in the world can claim they understand 100% of it".
So the EVIDENT is that like Ex Christian, he does not understand and yet his reasoning is that Christianity is no good and the bible (which he cannot understand) "cannot hold on it's own".
So, I aksed a 5 years old and he laughed.....
Hi happy, what's with "So, I aksed a 5 years old and he laughed ...." ?
Originally posted by laffin123:Hi happy, what's with "So, I aksed a 5 years old and he laughed ...." ?
don't mean to be defensive for happy....
"aksed" such mistakes are typically typo.... like someone typing too fast...
"evident" when it is supposed to be "evidence" is usually when someone does not understand the difference between the two words..... other examples are "migrate" and "emigrate"....
just my two cents worth... not intended to flame.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
don't mean to be defensive for happy...."aksed" such mistakes are typically typo.... like someone typing too fast...
"evident" when it is supposed to be "evidence" is usually when someone does not understand the difference between the two words..... other examples are "migrate" and "emigrate"....
just my two cents worth... not intended to flame.
Thanks Chin Eng,
I am not asking for the typo mistake. Anyway thanks for correcting.
I just asking for the meaning for that line .
(1) My background
Yes, I have studied bible in the past. I cannot say I understand it from head to toe. Anyway, who in the world can claim they understand 100% of it. Further, I studied the origin of the bible.
may i ask your motive of studying the bible? did you really study it for the sake of finding help? did you study it for the sake of finding the loopholes in the bible? did you study it as a person opened to teachings? im not going to assume anything, so im just asking you questions so you can realize what im trying to imply here...
(2) "bible cannot hold on its own"
If you read it with an open mind. This book creates more confusion. I don't have to explicitly tell you which verse. You will know which verse if you read with an open mind and read it critically. (If you realy want me to pinpoint, please read the first messgae of this thread by Ex-christian. I can also add more, but I don't want to.)
when you read something, may it be literature, the bible, short stories, or any other sort of books, if you know, or think you know something about the book, you tend to recieve a baised mentallity into thinking before you even started to read the book, truthfully, are you sure you really read it with an open mind? or did you already have a bad conception of christianity.
of course, alot of people who read the bible, have a hard time understanding its logic, and that is not to say that i wont be like this majority, i do have times where i cant understand the logic of the passages, but this doesn't mean that its a loophole of any sort, the bible is written in the old'en times, which if you had studied the origin, should have known that in olden times, books which are written are not written to directly represent the text they appear as. if you had never lived in the olden times, what basis are you making that you have studied and understand the whole bible?(even if its not 100%)
(3) religion creates tension
Quote
in christianity, god does tell us that in certain times where non-believers do go over-board, we should do something about it, but this isnt the time yet.
Unquote.
Read your quote again, self-explanatory.
Even, jihad and the like is messing with the peace of the world.
again you have explained that you didn't understand what i had said, i wont be flaming you for this, because i didn't write this clearly as well personally. what i was trying to warn the other christian believers is that, at a certain point where non-believers go over-board (scolding/flaming a christian just because they are one, attacking them personally due to our religion, saying things that a christian would perceive to be a wrong interpretation and a wrong misconception to non-believers)
these are the times where christians shouldn't just sit down and take the flow of words from non-believers, religion is a very hard topic to debate or support on, because there would always be some1 who is against your religion in any certain moment in time,
(4) religion creates a defensive mind
Please refer to pint (3) above.
in what religion do you not have a defensive mind? even as a non-believer, you build a defensive mind&heart(if you know what i meant, not literally) to keep out religion. i heard of this very creative idea from my own pastor who i respect alot, he once said, when we first set up a defensive mind, we build a thin covering around our heart, most things can get thru, but some will get blocked off.
when we continue to hold up this defensive mind, we build a even stronger covering, which blocked alot of ideas from coming tru into our mind/heart, when we continue even further, to the point where the covering turn into somewhat a diamond, almost every1 is unable to penetrate into your heart anymore..
(5) I want peace in this world
I came in and participated in this discussion not to create tension. I want people to use REASON and show TOLERANCE to other people.
i personally have been tolerating what you guys have said cus i was lazy to type a whole passage of text(ok, i admit being lazy), i dont know what other christians think, but i have been using reason to explain to you as well, even point out some misconceptions that non-believers have not noticed they had wrong. if you think i haven't been using reasoning to answer your questions, please tell me, because as a human, im not perfect, i cant know my capabilities like it was common sense to me and others.
(6) I advocate EVIDENT
EVIDENT is the answer. Today, we are seeing things evolving. Example: virus. That is why I want to say point (2) to everybody.
true, nowadays, we tend to look into the evidence of things, namely called the sciences, i myself is a pure science student who studies chemistry and physics. if you studied physics, you would have known that there are so many more things that remains a mystery to us, for example, the black holes, the big bang (who created the big bang? how would an explosion just happen out of nowhere?), the large universe, how small and insignificant we are compared to the huge universe, these are all but mysteries, we are not able to/or not even forever?(depending on if you subscribe to the linear understanding that the sun will soon expand to the point where earth might be burnt to crisp.)
for your last point, i would have nothing to say, i myself aren't all-knowing, i dont have capabilities of a both a bible genius and a science genius, i myself will try to find out an answer to your question asap and pm you if i ever find an answer to your question one day.
thanks for your understanding~
amen.
Originally posted by »¤ Liquified ¤« ...:to laffin123 and fellow christians, please click on the link below as the whole passage i wrote is too long to fit in this page of the thread xDHi Liquified, I have many points below (itemized to avoid confusion):may i ask your motive of studying the bible? did you really study it for the sake of finding help? did you study it for the sake of finding the loopholes in the bible? did you study it as a person opened to teachings? im not going to assume anything, so im just asking you questions so you can realize what im trying to imply here...
when you read something, may it be literature, the bible, short stories, or any other sort of books, if you know, or think you know something about the book, you tend to recieve a baised mentallity into thinking before you even started to read the book, truthfully, are you sure you really read it with an open mind? or did you already have a bad conception of christianity.
of course, alot of people who read the bible, have a hard time understanding its logic, and that is not to say that i wont be like this majority, i do have times where i cant understand the logic of the passages, but this doesn't mean that its a loophole of any sort, the bible is written in the old'en times, which if you had studied the origin, should have known that in olden times, books which are written are not written to directly represent the text they appear as. if you had never lived in the olden times, what basis are you making that you have studied and understand the whole bible?(even if its not 100%)
(3) religion creates tension
again you have explained that you didn't understand what i had said, i wont be flaming you for this, because i didn't write this clearly as well personally. what i was trying to warn the other christian believers is that, at a certain point where non-believers go over-board (scolding/flaming a christian just because they are one, attacking them personally due to our religion, saying things that a christian would perceive to be a wrong interpretation and a wrong misconception to non-believers)
these are the times where christians shouldn't just sit down and take the flow of words from non-believers, religion is a very hard topic to debate or support on, because there would always be some1 who is against your religion in any certain moment in time,
in what religion do you not have a defensive mind? even as a non-believer, you build a defensive mind&heart(if you know what i meant, not literally) to keep out religion. i heard of this very creative idea from my own pastor who i respect alot, he once said, when we first set up a defensive mind, we build a thin covering around our heart, most things can get thru, but some will get blocked off.
when we continue to hold up this defensive mind, we build a even stronger covering, which blocked alot of ideas from coming tru into our mind/heart, when we continue even further, to the point where the covering turn into somewhat a diamond, almost every1 is unable to penetrate into your heart anymore..
i personally have been tolerating what you guys have said cus i was lazy to type a whole passage of text(ok, i admit being lazy), i dont know what other christians think, but i have been using reason to explain to you as well, even point out some misconceptions that non-believers have not noticed they had wrong. if you think i haven't been using reasoning to answer your questions, please tell me, because as a human, im not perfect, i cant know my capabilities like it was common sense to me and others.
true, nowadays, we tend to look into the evidence of things, namely called the sciences, i myself is a pure science student who studies chemistry and physics. if you studied physics, you would have known that there are so many more things that remains a mystery to us, for example, the black holes, the big bang (who created the big bang? how would an explosion just happen out of nowhere?), the large universe, how small and insignificant we are compared to the huge universe, these are all but mysteries, we are not able to/or not even forever?(depending on if you subscribe to the linear understanding that the sun will soon expand to the point where earth might be burnt to crisp.)
for your last point, i would have nothing to say, i myself aren't all-knowing, i dont have capabilities of a both a bible genius and a science genius, i myself will try to find out an answer to your question asap and pm you if i ever find an answer to your question one day.
thanks for your understanding~
amen.
Hi Liquified,
Thanks for your thoughts, I can see that you are a reasonable person. I wish you happiness in your life journey.
I know this kind of debate is never ending.
To answer you: I was introduced to bible by someone. Saw some mistake in the opening chapter. So I studied whole book to find all the faults and loopholes to be frank. When people came to share the gospel, I raised these faults. There was no more discussion. No debate. They walked away.
Science is a beautiful subject and its frontier needs changing and advancing. It attempts to answer something which may not be final. For big band explanation, scientists will get to understand it one bit in the future. Science is constant search. Science is constant debate and needs mass collaboration.
The bible was assembled from many religious books many years ago. Many books which not not worthy were not accepted into the bible. So the worthy books are cherry picked into the bible. Many points in the bible are based on ancient context. You may say that it is not applicable now, or we have to see it in another angle. However it cannot be changed literally, or else what is the fundamental of this religion?
Good day.
laffin
Originally posted by laffin123:Thanks Chin Eng,
I am not asking for the typo mistake. Anyway thanks for correcting.
I just asking for the meaning for that line .
Because he finds it funny....the part when one cannot understand but conclude that "it cannot holds on its own"....
Originally posted by Happyinfo2:Because he finds it funny....the part when one cannot understand but conclude that "it cannot holds on its own"....
I hope young children of today should be exposed to:
1) Strength and weakness of science;
2) Strength and weakness of religion.
And let him/her choose her path in the later years.
It is terribly wrong to indoctrinate a set of unfounded beliefs to a young mind by their faith obsessed parents. To the extent that a 5 year old can laugh at much matured person who is talking sense to him/her. Very sad.
Originally posted by laffin123:I hope young children of today should be exposed to:
1) Strength and weakness of science;
2) Strength and weakness of religion.
And let him/her choose her path in the later years.
It is terribly wrong to indoctrinate a set of unfounded beliefs to a young mind by their faith obsessed parents. To the extent that a 5 year old can laugh at much matured person who is talking sense to him/her. Very sad.
Don't get too serious lah....I still fail to see how something that one cannot understand and yet claimed it cannot hold on it's own make any sense.....and I would be mature enough to accept that.
God created man in his own image. So if humans change, why can't God? It is a need for God to change some minor rules like killing those who work on the sabbath. If he doesnt change, then free will cannot be maintained. But people will still be judged after death.
woohoo! finally another christian-to-atheist! I'm your biggest fan I will follow you till you love me! XD
What is a atheist?
sigh.
Originally posted by likeyou:What is a atheist?
A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Human beings.......the mind is the supreme!