I know breaking away from Christianity is almost impossible
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Originally posted by gigabyte14:
ur typing pattern = peace?
isit not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'? but you have made it a den of thieves.''
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Don't get agitated...breath smile! What a beautiful day
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yea i do have a beautiful day..
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Hmmm...I wonder why TS called himself Ex-Christian instead of a Buddhist. Still sore about being a Christian once or still cannot forget Christ?
Let's says that TS has the facts about Christianity right (in my opinion, it is not right), then Christianity should be commended for the honesty. Even though there are "bad" aspects, they never try to hide it and it is recorded in the Bible so that all can read.
Christians are followers of Jesus and all He did when He is with us is to show us that God loved us and He wants us to love one another. The missions of Christians is to spread the Gospels (Good News) and that is God love us and want to give us eternal life. And we should live in peace with each other and love one another like how He loved us.
True, not all Christians can put their faith in their daily lives but then it is not the fault of God or Christ. Is it? True that some dubious "churches" are created and "dubious" teachings are preached but again, it is not God's fault. Is it?
Like TS said, it is about informed choice. If one has not even gotten the "correct" understanding of Christianity, how can one claimed that one has made an informed choice to leave one faith for another?
What make TS become a Christian in the first place and what makes him think that he will not leave for another faith again?
And if he really thinks that Buddhism is great, why not just share with people the teachings instead of trying to flame here?
So much for not wanting to create havoc etc.. and hope that your new faith can "create" a new "Ex-Christian" to one that is reflects what you said about your new faith. Your words and actions will shape our opinions of your new faith and your words and actions might just help to convert some.....
God Bless...
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Thanks to everybody that contribute to this thread. I called myself Ex-Christian, because i feel something for humanity and compassion. I'm glad that Buddha provide these. He taught us many eternal laws of the universe. Most Christians know how God was like in the OT. Maybe you don't know how loving God is by sending good people to hell by not being in His chosen churches. I will not stick to anyone who has bad records and proud of showing them, eternally. There must be better religions.
It is all about informed choice. Rest assure about my choice on Buddhism. I had read "Lun Yu", "Dao De Jing", and different Gods beliefs. A lot on Buddhism, on cultivating wisdom and blessings.
I was a student of Hai Sing High.
I started this thread for Christians who want to break away from Christianity. And I hope they have a good replacement. I said other Christians should not read this thread at all. They should not be here at all. Why post? How can I flame at my own thread?
Yeah, when Buddha pointed out the wrongfulness teachings on the God belief. God belief people thought Buddha created "havoc".
I will not be here permanently. Please understand, our states of mind is never permanent. Negative emotions come and go when you want. I have gave them websites so that they can go and start true Buddhism practices with a Master and never come back here. But helping them step away fromthe Devil of Heaven's control is the first step. People with wisdom must know some forums are not places to cultivate positive emotions. I'm here till now so that Christians who want to break away from Christianity can be firm on breaking away. Some know God is inhuman and work only for His own end, but find it different to break with the threat of hell.
Rest assure, with more cultivation on loving-kindness, Buddhists will soon feel compassion even for the Devil of Heaven for his mental anguish.
I'm not good enough to teach true practices of Buddhism. But I had provided websites.
May all be Well and Happy always!
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How do you judge ''informed choices''?
The only excuse to flame an ex christian is to say he dont know god or understand xtianity?
woah, i admire xtians sometimes for their creativity
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
I read a book from 1st page to last page. With logic of course. Anyway the pali suttas is longer than the bible. I'm a lover of correct wisdom and understanding, ethical systems and philosophies of life. I read a lot. Are you interested in making an informed choice now? If so I can give you a lot of websites to read.
How do you read the bloody bible? Ignoring some unacceptable teachings, and obeying some?
I dun think you want your children to obey this right? “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Matthew 23:9)
It is important to have a virtuous wife and teaches your children virtues, so they will succeed. And you have a happy family. This is the works of karma.
Do you know how the Devil of Heaven is like in Buddhism?
How did you read things? Reading everything? If yes, can you reply on every paragraph I made?
I will try research every paragraph that you've quoted to see if you have quoted it out of context.
It will take time.
It looks like you've just copied and pasted the texts. You did not elaborate on the verses that you've quoted.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
How do you judge ''informed choices''?
The only excuse to flame an ex christian is to say he dont know god or understand xtianity?
woah, i admire xtians sometimes for their creativity
I believed that you misunderstood me....informed choice is what ex Christian said and not me and you should ask him how to judge "informed choices"....
Actually, I am doing the same as you by asking him how can he make an "informed choice" when he don't even know Christianity?
I have no problem with people of any faith and even those who choose not to have any....
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Originally posted by Happyinfo2:
I believed that you misunderstood me....informed choice is what ex Christian said and not me and you should ask him how to judge "informed choices"....
Actually, I am doing the same as you by asking him how can he make an "informed choice" when he don't even know Christianity?
I have no problem with people of any faith and even those who choose not to have any....
why on earth every ex christian is being told he doesnt know christianity when he leave christianity?
this is based on the assumption christianity is perfect and good and require full understanding, but unfortunately this is only due to each individual perspective
i see informed choices and knowing christianity as separate, i believe even christians dont even know christianity
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
Thanks to everybody that contribute to this thread. I called myself Ex-Christian, because i feel something for humanity and compassion. I'm glad that Buddha provide these. He taught us many eternal laws of the universe. Most Christians know how God was like in the OT. Maybe you don't know how loving God is by sending good people to hell by not being in His chosen churches. I will not stick to anyone who has bad records and proud of showing them, eternally. There must be better religions.
It is all about informed choice. Rest assure about my choice on Buddhism. I had read "Lun Yu", "Dao De Jing", and different Gods beliefs. A lot on Buddhism, on cultivating wisdom and blessings.
I was a student of Hai Sing High.
I started this thread for Christians who want to break away from Christianity. And I hope they have a good replacement. I said other Christians should not read this thread at all. They should not be here at all. Why post? How can I flame at my own thread?
Yeah, when Buddha pointed out the wrongfulness teachings on the God belief. God belief people thought Buddha created "havoc".
I will not be here permanently. Please understand, our states of mind is never permanent. Negative emotions come and go when you want. I have gave them websites so that they can go and start true Buddhism practices with a Master and never come back here. But helping them step away fromthe Devil of Heaven's control is the first step. People with wisdom must know some forums are not places to cultivate positive emotions. I'm here till now so that Christians who want to break away from Christianity can be firm on breaking away. Some know God is inhuman and work only for His own end, but find it different to break with the threat of hell.
Rest assure, with more cultivation on loving-kindness, Buddhists will soon feel compassion even for the Devil of Heaven for his mental anguish.
I'm not good enough to teach true practices of Buddhism. But I had provided websites.
May all be Well and Happy always!
Still cannot understand your reason for calling yourself ex Christian when a Buddhist is more appropriate (for you) especially when you claimed you are about "humanity and compassion".
Don't get me wrong as I know that most (if not all) main stream religions in Singapore do preach about being good - humanity and compassion. So, there is no problem if one wishes to choose whatever faith that appeal to them. It's a personal choice.
But your claimed of informed choices? I think you should said that you study about Buddhism and find it more appealing to you than Christianity....and if you have no intention to flame, then you should just explained the benefits of being a Buddhist. Not about how bad Christianity is especially when your interpretation may not be correct....so much for informed choices.
Being in a Christian school does not mean you know the faith....especially when the focus of all schools now is education and not preaching of faith. In fact, they don't impose the faith at all.
If you really know the Bible as well as you seems to claimed, then please enlighten us why Paul meant when he said it is about "faith, hope and love and nothing is greater than love"....
I do not want to argue with you on your views about Christianity but God do not send " good people to hell by not being in His chosen churches" as you claimed.
And thanks for trying hard to save Christians by posting here but your are 2000+ years too late......
May you be well and happy always too.
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Originally posted by laurence82:
why on earth every ex christian is being told he doesnt know christianity when he leave christianity?
this is based on the assumption christianity is perfect and good and require full understanding, but unfortunately this is only due to each individual perspective
i see informed choices and knowing christianity as separate, i believe even christians dont even know christianity
I don't think every ex Christian will be told that he dosen't know God when they leave....if they do not post Christians teachings that may not correctly reflect what the faith is about. If what they said seems to contradict what Christians believed, then surely Christains will conclude that these ex Christians do not really know God.
Perhaps, you should ask why they always claimed that Christianity is bad when they leave..... Why can't they just leave and be happy about it ?
Being a Christian is about following Christ and living out the faith I.E. the teachings of Christ which is one of love, compassion and charity. Yes, it takes time to know, understand and develop a relationship with God...... just like a marriage when the wedding is not the end but the begining of a relationship. Like a marriage which is not always a bed of roses, it is about carrying our cross and following Him.
You are right that there are Christians who do not know Christianity and Ex Christian is one such example (while he is still a Christian).
I also agree with you that an informed choice and knowing Christianity are separate issues....which is why I am asking Ex Christains why he claimed that he made "informed choices" ..... he seems to claimed he knows how "bad" is Christianity (with quotes) and how good is Buddhism....
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I call myself an "ex-christian" because I don't want to lie about it. I want board-minded people to know why and how an ex-christian breaks away from christianity. I'm giving info to make informed choices only. Isn't getting views from people with different exposures a good thing. Why are you stopping the flow of information.
I study about Buddhism and find it more appealing to me than Christianity.
After all, it is your personal karma. I don't know I'm flaming you because I don't type with anger. I'm just giving out more info for the sake of my targeted audiences. I think your emotion tricked you.
My school preached on the specially selected parts of the bible every school day, then we sang praises. It is more correct to say I used to know the faith, until I gain intelligence.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence rely not. (Proverbs 3:5 NAB)
Are you sure you have faith?
"Even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed," the Lord answered, "you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May God uproot you and throw you into the sea,' and it would obey you! (Luke 17:6 NLT)
I think there are a few faithful Christians who appeared here that know Christianity way better then you did.
Do Christians know God better than the Jews who walk with God, and are His Chosen people? Do you know what will happen to fake Jews in the Judgment Day?
Everybody karma is different. Including those living 2000+ years ago.
Making an informed choice is making a useful choice that will help you, within all the knowledge you can get.
Tell me what will happen to your family if you use this teaching? Do you find this teaching unuseful?
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Matthew 23:9)
What is your Christianity's understanding on this teaching?
I would like to advice you not to use this teaching from Matthew 23:9. This teaching will be a bad karma cause that result in a bad karma effect.
Sir, you are a smart person too. You know using this verse "May you be well and happy always" is correct. You know what is best for you.
I sincerely wish everyone,
May you be Well and Happy always!!!
Ex-Christian
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
It is more correct to say I used to know the faith, until I gain intelligence.
...
Tell me what will happen to your family if you use this teaching? Do you find this teaching unuseful?
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Matthew 23:9)
personally, it does not matter if you have chosen to be a Buddhist (or Muslim or Hindu). it's your prerogative....
but to say that you use to know the faith until you gained intelligence is a little arrogant, in my opinion....
... most (if not all your objections, including those in the first post) are based on contextual misinterpretation, ie, you have taken a verse outside the context of the passage. bear in mind that Scripure is NOT TO BE read in solitary verses, but as an entire passage. Verse numbers were added to aid in reference.
your quotation on Matt 23 is actually part of a sermon given by Jesus to Jewish audiences on the relationship between them and those who called themselves Rabbi. The crux of the teaching of this passage is about people who chose to elevate themselves in their status.
at the end of the day.... you worship what you want to worship.... it does not matter to me, and it should not matter to anyone here.
i don't think anyone should criticise another faith, and there is really no reason for you to run down Christians either.
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
I call myself an "ex-christian" because I don't want to lie about it. I want board-minded people to know why and how an ex-christian breaks away from christianity. I'm giving info to make informed choices only. Isn't getting views from people with different exposures a good thing. Why are you stopping the flow of information.
I study about Buddhism and find it more appealing to me than Christianity.
After all, it is your personal karma. I don't know I'm flaming you because I don't type with anger. I'm just giving out more info for the sake of my targeted audiences. I think your emotion tricked you.
My school preached on the specially selected parts of the bible every school day, then we sang praises. It is more correct to say I used to know the faith, until I gain intelligence.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence rely not. (Proverbs 3:5 NAB)
Are you sure you have faith?
"Even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed," the Lord answered, "you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May God uproot you and throw you into the sea,' and it would obey you! (Luke 17:6 NLT)
I think there are a few faithful Christians who appeared here that know Christianity way better then you did.
Do Christians know God better than the Jews who walk with God, and are His Chosen people? Do you know what will happen to fake Jews in the Judgment Day?
Everybody karma is different. Including those living 2000+ years ago.
Making an informed choice is making a useful choice that will help you, within all the knowledge you can get.
Tell me what will happen to your family if you use this teaching? Do you find this teaching unuseful?
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Matthew 23:9)
What is your Christianity's understanding on this teaching?
I would like to advice you not to use this teaching from Matthew 23:9. This teaching will be a bad karma cause that result in a bad karma effect.
Sir, you are a smart person too. You know using this verse "May you be well and happy always" is correct. You know what is best for you.
I sincerely wish everyone,
May you be Well and Happy always!!!
Ex-Christian
Still, I think you should live today and call yourself what you are today....and explain to us how what you are today can make you a better person than yesterday....
It's not about emotions but one cannot based on one's lack of knowledge of 1 subject and says it is bad as compared to one that one knows better....Never had I said that Buddhism or any faith is bad and Christianity is better....
I don't beleive (even though I do not know much of Buddhism) that your new faith teaches you to tell others that their faith is bad and yours is good.
Of course Christians school do preach and conduct services for their Christians students but they do not impose it on anyone who does not wish to attend...students of other faith.
Still your continuous mis-quote to reflect badly on Christianity is reaosns why I feel you are here to flame.... I certainly do not think Buddhist are taught or told to do what you did here.
Your actions speaks volumes of what you said. I hope that your new faith can heal you...
God bless you.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
personally, it does not matter if you have chosen to be a Buddhist (or Muslim or Hindu). it's your prerogative....
but to say that you use to know the faith until you gained intelligence is a little arrogant, in my opinion....
... most (if not all your objections, including those in the first post) are based on contextual misinterpretation, ie, you have taken a verse outside the context of the passage. bear in mind that Scripure is NOT TO BE read in solitary verses, but as an entire passage. Verse numbers were added to aid in reference.
your quotation on Matt 23 is actually part of a sermon given by Jesus to Jewish audiences on the relationship between them and those who called themselves Rabbi. The crux of the teaching of this passage is about people who chose to elevate themselves in their status.
at the end of the day.... you worship what you want to worship.... it does not matter to me, and it should not matter to anyone here.
i don't think anyone should criticise another faith, and there is really no reason for you to run down Christians either.
If you can quote this.
With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26
Why not quote this along side?
And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19So when your prayers fails, you have another quote to comfort you.
Are all biblic faiths members (praises singers, tools controlled by Devil of Heaven for his own end) happy with God's Will that is God's arrangement for them? Cause and effect happens in everything if you think carefully. It is not simply the will of god. Buddhists cultivate good cause, and are mindful not to make bad cause.
Lighthouse church-goers who wear glasses should go to miracle services to restore their eyesight.
Oh? Lighthouse church had not criticized another faith. Your name reminded me of someone who is creating really Heavy bad karma to my friend. I want to remind that person that Buddhism's Hells also have one that Burns Hell Beings with Hell Fire Eternally. And these Hell Beings suffer Mental Anguish.
Do you know i'm trying to lessen the bad karma of you. You better find ways to lessen your bad karma. Are you sure the always angry and jealous Devil of Heaven will not treat you badly if you offended Him?
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With God all things are possible. - Matthew 29:26
I asked for an earthquake then not somewhere else but where I stood....never knew how an earthquake would feel since then I know. God put a big smile on my face that day. Of course I don't expect ordinary people to believe me. But to put something true to the anger and rejection of lost people instead of lies...I enjoy that very much. If lies could heart the truth would hurt much much more
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And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. - Judges 1:19
I don't think you ever been a Christian no offense That verse was saying that Judah was winning. To man of faith Judah won because God was with him. It's the same today with saying Godspeed that is May God be with you so that all will be okay! -
Lighthouse church-goers who wear glasses should go to miracle services to restore their eyesight.
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Sure and why work too? Why die too? Why must grow old why walk if God could fly us?
You disgust me. What you need is a ginnie in the lamp
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Do you know i'm trying to lessen the bad karma of you. You better find ways to lessen your bad karma. Are you sure the always angry and jealous Devil of Heaven will not treat you badly if you offended Him?
You are just trolling here by calling God as devil.
You can't hate what you truly believe doesn't exist. I don't hate Santa for not giving me my Christmas present. -
I am happy that you found Christianity to be 'wrong' and Buddhism right for you. And there is every possibility that you might be right about your choice. But my wish for you is that you have found the strength and conviction to be able to accept that you might be wrong afterall and accept the consequences that follow. So you must be strong to believe that IF you are wrong that whatever the bible says will come to light.
I personally believe that the God I am believing is the only way. But hey, my belief is strong enough yet to accept the consequences that follow if I am wrong afterall.
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For me I know my belief is right. But it still takes faith when hardship hits you.
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
I call myself an "ex-christian" because I don't want to lie about it. I want board-minded people to know why and how an ex-christian breaks away from christianity. I'm giving info to make informed choices only. Isn't getting views from people with different exposures a good thing. Why are you stopping the flow of information.
I study about Buddhism and find it more appealing to me than Christianity.
After all, it is your personal karma. I don't know I'm flaming you because I don't type with anger. I'm just giving out more info for the sake of my targeted audiences. I think your emotion tricked you.
My school preached on the specially selected parts of the bible every school day, then we sang praises. It is more correct to say I used to know the faith, until I gain intelligence.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own intelligence rely not. (Proverbs 3:5 NAB)
Are you sure you have faith?
"Even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed," the Lord answered, "you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May God uproot you and throw you into the sea,' and it would obey you! (Luke 17:6 NLT)
I think there are a few faithful Christians who appeared here that know Christianity way better then you did.
Do Christians know God better than the Jews who walk with God, and are His Chosen people? Do you know what will happen to fake Jews in the Judgment Day?
Everybody karma is different. Including those living 2000+ years ago.
Making an informed choice is making a useful choice that will help you, within all the knowledge you can get.
Tell me what will happen to your family if you use this teaching? Do you find this teaching unuseful?
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” (Matthew 23:9)
What is your Christianity's understanding on this teaching?
I would like to advice you not to use this teaching from Matthew 23:9. This teaching will be a bad karma cause that result in a bad karma effect.
Sir, you are a smart person too. You know using this verse "May you be well and happy always" is correct. You know what is best for you.
I sincerely wish everyone,
May you be Well and Happy always!!!
Ex-Christian
You were never a Christian to begin with, how can you become an ex Chrisitan?
As for your claim that you are a Buddhist now, what do you want to be in your next life? A cockcroach or perhaps a worm?
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
If you can quote this.
With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26Why not quote this along side?
And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19So when your prayers fails, you have another quote to comfort you.
Are all biblic faiths members (praises singers, tools controlled by Devil of Heaven for his own end) happy with God's Will that is God's arrangement for them? Cause and effect happens in everything if you think carefully. It is not simply the will of god. Buddhists cultivate good cause, and are mindful not to make bad cause.
Lighthouse church-goers who wear glasses should go to miracle services to restore their eyesight.
Oh? Lighthouse church had not criticized another faith. Your name reminded me of someone who is creating really Heavy bad karma to my friend. I want to remind that person that Buddhism's Hells also have one that Burns Hell Beings with Hell Fire Eternally. And these Hell Beings suffer Mental Anguish.
Do you know i'm trying to lessen the bad karma of you. You better find ways to lessen your bad karma. Are you sure the always angry and jealous Devil of Heaven will not treat you badly if you offended Him?
Why don't you tell us what do you understand in Judges 1:19?
Who cannot drive out the enemies out and why?
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
If you can quote this.
With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26Why not quote this along side?
And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19evidently, you did not even bother to check the verses you are quoting....
there is no chapter 29 in Matthew. This gospel ends with chapter 28. The verse you are quoting is from chapter 19.... this is either a typo on your part or from the atheists website you are extracting from. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019:26&version=NIV
so it goes to show that if you can't even get your passage right, it suffice to say that you did not even bother to do any research into the context of the verses, which can simply be done by either refering to Bible concordances, or go read up some apologetics studies.
... but let's go beyond your apparent lack of indepth understanding...
Matt 19:
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
The response of "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" was preceded by the question of who can enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that is it more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a camel to go through the eye of the needle, to which the disciples basically asked "so does it mean that no one can enter the kingdom of God?" and Jesus answers that according to man's standard, it is not possible, but with God, this is possible....
On Joshua, the record is of a military operation, wherein no supernatural power was involved. The army of Israel were facing a force with a more superior weapon. Based on military might alone, the army of Israel were not able to conquer the enemy's force.
Could God have been involved supernaturally? Yes! But did He? No!
When challenged by Satan in the desert to jump from the cliff, Jesus' respond was, why put God to the test.
Originally posted by Ex-Christian:So when your prayers fails, you have another quote to comfort you.
Are all biblic faiths members (praises singers, tools controlled by Devil of Heaven for his own end) happy with God's Will that is God's arrangement for them? Cause and effect happens in everything if you think carefully. It is not simply the will of god. Buddhists cultivate good cause, and are mindful not to make bad cause.
Lighthouse church-goers who wear glasses should go to miracle services to restore their eyesight.
Oh? Lighthouse church had not criticized another faith. Your name reminded me of someone who is creating really Heavy bad karma to my friend. I want to remind that person that Buddhism's Hells also have one that Burns Hell Beings with Hell Fire Eternally. And these Hell Beings suffer Mental Anguish.
Do you know i'm trying to lessen the bad karma of you. You better find ways to lessen your bad karma. Are you sure the always angry and jealous Devil of Heaven will not treat you badly if you offended Him?
what happen at Lighthouse church has nothing to do with me.... i really don't care.
you couldn't possibly lessen any bad karma of me.... you don't even know my real name.
you know, you cannot even write coherently.... you last para doesn't even make any sense at all.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
With God all things are possible. - Matthew 29:26
I asked for an earthquake then not somewhere else but where I stood....never knew how an earthquake would feel since then I know. God put a big smile on my face that day. Of course I don't expect ordinary people to believe me. But to put something true to the anger and rejection of lost people instead of lies...I enjoy that very much. If lies could heart the truth would hurt much much more
dude...people quote wrong passage, you don't need to follow lah. can check first or not?
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Originally posted by Ex-Christian:
Tell you the true, I almost become a pastor.
you must be kidding...almost because?
one time you think you were a strong Christian?
or one time you almost finished theological studies in TTC?
your Bible knowledge is infantile at best....