Selamat Hari Raya my Christian Brethren!

Firdaussaid

20 Sep 09, 03:01

To my Christian brethren in this forum, from a plain Muslim:

I am born of a Catholic father and a Muslim mother. I grew up celebrating the Muslim festivals of Aidilfitri and Aidiladha, as well standing in church alongside relatives on the eve of Christmas. It saddens me to see in this day and age that Christians and Muslims stand apart from each other on opposite sides of a very huge divide. Today, the media often refers to the monumental clash of civilizations between the perceived ‘Western’ and ‘Islamic’ worlds.

It saddens me to see that in general, we see each other as peoples apart, when once, more than a thousand years ago in barren deserts, Muslims and Christians stood side by side as common heirs to the faith of Abraham. There are, as a matter of course, theological differences that stand between us; e.g. the Qur’an decrees that Abraham laid Ishmael, not Isaac, as his sacrifice to God. Then there is the matter of the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost – the Muslims do not share in this belief.

But beyond such differences, we share overwhelmingly common ground when it comes to moral values and principles such as charity, devotion and faith, just as how other major world religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism preach the same.

My Christian brothers and sisters! Let it not be forgotten that Muslims, Christians and Jews alike are of the people of the book, worshipping the one same God, though different rituals of prayer separate us. “Allah” is to us not a separate God from that which you which you worship. Allah is just the mere rendering of the word God in Arabic i.e. a simple translation. Indeed, it is my humble opinion that being Protestant or Catholic or Mormon does not mean I take you as a lesser worshipper of God, and I pray that you see the same of me. The word Muslim merely means One Who submits to God, so I see no reason why I should think of you as followers of a separate religion – likewise, I hope you do not see me, and Muslims in general, as people of a separate world.

Again, we are People of the Book (ahli al-kitab is the expression is Arabic), and should embrace each other as such.

Perhaps I could use a local analogy: being a Chinese, Malay or Indian does not make you any less or more a Singaporean.

To refer to the Holy Qur’an, I would like to quote Surah Al-Baqarah, the 62^th verse (Chapter 2:62).

Those who believe in the Qur’an,

And those who follow the Jewish scriptures,

And the Christians and the Sabians,-

And who believe in God

And the Last Day,

And work righteousness,

Shall have their reward

With their Lord; on them

Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

I appeal to you, browsers of this online forum, that we as Singapore Christians and Singaporean Muslims alike, stand forth with a little dignity and unity and so hold ourselves above the pettiness and madness of this world of ours that, outside our little red dot of an island city-state, is shrouded in inter-religious strife and hatred. Pledge ourselves as one united people, indeed!

I leave this topic open for those who would like to reaffirm the bonds of kinship and friendship that once existed in the past, and I pray exist to the ending of this world when we are all brought before the Lord for the Last Judgment. Let us ignore the inflammatory postings such as “ccb all muslims r terrorist” and “christians are all crazy overzealous evangelists” that are sure to pop up.

I hope that you get a taste of curry rendang and ketupat this coming festival.

Selamat Hari Raya!

Uraniumfish

20 Sep 09, 03:55

All religions are the same la.

AndrewPKYap

20 Sep 09, 05:18

Always remember that there are no truths in religion, or at least justified, verified truths and only beliefs. Only what the believers assume to be truth. So in whatever you do in the name of your religion, don't do stupid things (or not do things because they are "against" your religion) that piss off other people and especially your parents.

Firdaussaid

20 Sep 09, 05:46

On an additional note, I hope the reader does not misconstrue my post as an exclusive Hari Raya greeting card solely for Christians. It was addressed as such because the targeted audience are the browsers of this forum, Eternal Hope. I quoted the Qur'an to illustrate the common grounds which Muslims and Christians can stand on, and not to exclude followers of other religions.

In short, apologies if my post seemed addressed only to Christians. I should have been more aware that my thread can be viewed by people of other faiths as well.

I would like to extend Selamat Hari Raya to persons of all faiths, be you Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or Hindu. :)

Stomp661

20 Sep 09, 09:16

Islam is a false religion.There is no religious harmony in America and neither should we in Singapore.

Short Ninja

20 Sep 09, 09:24

Selamat Aidil Fitri to you Firdaus,I am not a Christian just someone who feels that when someone wish you well we should always do the same in return.

Shao Wei

20 Sep 09, 18:08

aaa.. bring me back to the days of first crusade..

but wait.. i was not even a sperm then

S.gal83

20 Sep 09, 20:29

Selamat hari raya back to you.

Miracles&Prophecies

21 Sep 09, 18:00

I view my fellow mankind as brothers whatever his or her religion is.

This coming from a Catholic.

And Selamat Hari Raya. Mohon maaf lahir dan batin.

Herzog_Zwei

21 Sep 09, 18:10

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

I view my fellow mankind as brothers whatever his or her religion is.

This coming from a Catholic.

And Selamat Hari Raya. Mohon maaf lahir dan batin.

So you view people without religions as non-human?

Miracles&Prophecies

22 Sep 09, 09:48

Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:

So you view people without religions as non-human?

To me there's only good people or bad people. God is universal. I believe in one God and that makes all of humankind my fellow brothers whether they are believers or not or belief in a different god.

googoomuck

26 Sep 09, 20:08

Originally posted by Firdaussaid:

 

To my Christian brethren in this forum, from a plain Muslim:

I am born of a Catholic father and a Muslim mother. I grew up celebrating the Muslim festivals of Aidilfitri and Aidiladha, as well standing in church alongside relatives on the eve of Christmas. It saddens me to see in this day and age that Christians and Muslims stand apart from each other on opposite sides of a very huge divide. Today, the media often refers to the monumental clash of civilizations between the perceived ‘Western’ and ‘Islamic’ worlds.

It saddens me to see that in general, we see each other as peoples apart, when once, more than a thousand years ago in barren deserts, Muslims and Christians stood side by side as common heirs to the faith of Abraham. There are, as a matter of course, theological differences that stand between us; e.g. the Qur’an decrees that Abraham laid Ishmael, not Isaac, as his sacrifice to God. Then there is the matter of the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost – the Muslims do not share in this belief.

But beyond such differences, we share overwhelmingly common ground when it comes to moral values and principles such as charity, devotion and faith, just as how other major world religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism preach the same.

My Christian brothers and sisters! Let it not be forgotten that Muslims, Christians and Jews alike are of the people of the book, worshipping the one same God, though different rituals of prayer separate us. “Allah” is to us not a separate God from that which you which you worship. Allah is just the mere rendering of the word God in Arabic i.e. a simple translation. Indeed, it is my humble opinion that being Protestant or Catholic or Mormon does not mean I take you as a lesser worshipper of God, and I pray that you see the same of me. The word Muslim merely means One Who submits to God, so I see no reason why I should think of you as followers of a separate religion – likewise, I hope you do not see me, and Muslims in general, as people of a separate world.

Again, we are People of the Book (ahli al-kitab is the expression is Arabic), and should embrace each other as such.

Perhaps I could use a local analogy: being a Chinese, Malay or Indian does not make you any less or more a Singaporean.

To refer to the Holy Qur’an, I would like to quote Surah Al-Baqarah, the 62^th verse (Chapter 2:62).

Those who believe in the Qur’an,

And those who follow the Jewish scriptures,

And the Christians and the Sabians,-

And who believe in God

And the Last Day,

And work righteousness,

Shall have their reward

With their Lord; on them

Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

I appeal to you, browsers of this online forum, that we as Singapore Christians and Singaporean Muslims alike, stand forth with a little dignity and unity and so hold ourselves above the pettiness and madness of this world of ours that, outside our little red dot of an island city-state, is shrouded in inter-religious strife and hatred. Pledge ourselves as one united people, indeed!

I leave this topic open for those who would like to reaffirm the bonds of kinship and friendship that once existed in the past, and I pray exist to the ending of this world when we are all brought before the Lord for the Last Judgment. Let us ignore the inflammatory postings such as “ccb all muslims r terrorist” and “christians are all crazy overzealous evangelists” that are sure to pop up.

I hope that you get a taste of curry rendang and ketupat this coming festival.

Selamat Hari Raya!

Selamat Hari Raya!

So, you've asked that all your sins in the past be forgiven and you believe that it's forgiven.

Let's come back to the verse that you've quoted:

Chapter 002.062

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God(Allah, to be more precise) and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The verse actually says: Tolerance is extended only to those who believe in allah and become muslims.

Now, the Christians believe in the trinity. Fuck that!

Chapter 005.072 - They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Chapter 005.073 - They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Firdaussaid

27 Sep 09, 03:57

Originally posted by Stomp661:

Islam is a false religion.There is no religious harmony in America and neither should we in Singapore.

I think that's a very sad statement to make.

With regards to googoomuck's post, I would again like to emphasize that Allah is but the mere rendering of the word "God" in English; similarly, the word "Muslim", when described as a noun in the sense of the English language, would mean "a person who submits to the will of God". Thus googoomuck, your simplistic exegesis of that verse can be rephrased as "Tolerance is extended only to those who believe in God and become persons who submit to the will of God" in a strictly linguistic sense.

To googoomuck: I feel that I have to respond to your post because you are tarring Muslims, Muslims in the sense of adherents of Muhammad's message, in with an unpleasant brush. You accuse Muslims of being intolerant; that may be so in the wider world where among 1.3 billion followers of Islam, there is a minority of extremists and terrorists who are indeed intolerant. I pose to you now this question: is it fair to tar the same brush for all Muslims? Do you see your average Indian and Malay Muslims in Singapore heckling non-Muslims condemning them to hell out in the streets? I think you will find that the answer would be more geared towards the negative. Please do not quote the Qur'an out of context for purposes of inciting divisions between different faiths. The Qur'an preaches the universal brotherhood of mankind, as many other verses in this rather large book would attest to.

To offer my two cents on your post: you are insinuating by extension that Muslims believe pacific islanders in far-flung atolls who lived and died around say, 800 A.D. (roughly 200 years after Muhammad's death) are condemned to dwell in the fires of hell therein forever and ever for the fact that they were not "Muslims" - how could they be seeing they did not have contact with the outside world, much less Islam, for ten centuries to come? To belief so would be quite irrational and downright silly of me. Islam, like Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism and Sikhism and practically all other faiths that ever existed since man himself existed, professes that mankind will be judged on their conduct, not on their faith alone.

It bemuses me when I see Muslims degrade Christians by saying "You're all going to hell" and vice versa, just as it bemuses me when I see Protestants decry the same thing for Catholics and vice versa. I think we need not indulge in such slander, because it is not ours to judge. Only in death will mankind collectively know the truth of their various faiths. In other word, it is God's, or the gods' if you are not of monotheistic faith, business to reveal the truly final absolute truth, not ours.

The least we can do here is to treat each other with respect. I do not hold a PhD in Theology, and I very doubt much that you, the person who labels himself googoomuck behind the keyboard, are one either. I did not post my message for any sinister agenda, such as subtle apologetics or evangelising; or to draw a theological debate in case you were imagining that. And I do not understand your statement "So, you've asked that all your sins in the past be forgiven and you believe that it's forgiven": I did not ask for forgiveness, not assumed forgiveness was granted. Forgiveness for what exactly, I have no idea - you would need to elaborate.

I posted the Hari Raya greeting in this Christian forum because I would like to remind Christians and all other readers alike that we share the universality of religion and religious values.

Why did I post it? Because I am concerned at the violent rifts between Christians and Muslims in the wider world and am afraid that such cracks will appear in Singapore.

Is there a need for such a post? Well, seeing as to how I received the exhortation "Fuck that!" in response to my post wishing you Selamat Hari Raya and appealing for Christians and Muslims to remember that we are all parties to the universal brotherhood of mankind and should respect each other as such, I think you have assured me that such a need exists.

This is not a theological debate but an appeal for us to live up the idealogy of our pledge, even though Old Lee had recently dismissed it as mere aspiration.

googoomuck

27 Sep 09, 07:26

Originally posted by Firdaussaid:

I think that's a very sad statement to make.

With regards to googoomuck's post, I would again like to emphasize that Allah is but the mere rendering of the word "God" in English; similarly, the word "Muslim", when described as a noun in the sense of the English language, would mean "a person who submits to the will of God". Thus googoomuck, your simplistic exegesis of that verse can be rephrased as "Tolerance is extended only to those who believe in God and become persons who submit to the will of God" in a strictly linguistic sense.

To googoomuck: I feel that I have to respond to your post because you are tarring Muslims, Muslims in the sense of adherents of Muhammad's message, in with an unpleasant brush. You accuse Muslims of being intolerant; that may be so in the wider world where among 1.3 billion followers of Islam, there is a minority of extremists and terrorists who are indeed intolerant. I pose to you now this question: is it fair to tar the same brush for all Muslims? Do you see your average Indian and Malay Muslims in Singapore heckling non-Muslims condemning them to hell out in the streets? I think you will find that the answer would be more geared towards the negative. Please do not quote the Qur'an out of context for purposes of inciting divisions between different faiths. The Qur'an preaches the universal brotherhood of mankind, as many other verses in this rather large book would attest to.

To offer my two cents on your post: you are insinuating by extension that Muslims believe pacific islanders in far-flung atolls who lived and died around say, 800 A.D. (roughly 200 years after Muhammad's death) are condemned to dwell in the fires of hell therein forever and ever for the fact that they were not "Muslims" - how could they be seeing they did not have contact with the outside world, much less Islam, for ten centuries to come? To belief so would be quite irrational and downright silly of me. Islam, like Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism and Sikhism and practically all other faiths that ever existed since man himself existed, professes that mankind will be judged on their conduct, not on their faith alone.

It bemuses me when I see Muslims degrade Christians by saying "You're all going to hell" and vice versa, just as it bemuses me when I see Protestants decry the same thing for Catholics and vice versa. I think we need not indulge in such slander, because it is not ours to judge. Only in death will mankind collectively know the truth of their various faiths. In other word, it is God's, or the gods' if you are not of monotheistic faith, business to reveal the truly final absolute truth, not ours.

The least we can do here is to treat each other with respect. I do not hold a PhD in Theology, and I very doubt much that you, the person who labels himself googoomuck behind the keyboard, are one either. I did not post my message for any sinister agenda, such as subtle apologetics or evangelising; or to draw a theological debate in case you were imagining that. And I do not understand your statement "So, you've asked that all your sins in the past be forgiven and you believe that it's forgiven": I did not ask for forgiveness, not assumed forgiveness was granted. Forgiveness for what exactly, I have no idea - you would need to elaborate.

I posted the Hari Raya greeting in this Christian forum because I would like to remind Christians and all other readers alike that we share the universality of religion and religious values.

Why did I post it? Because I am concerned at the violent rifts between Christians and Muslims in the wider world and am afraid that such cracks will appear in Singapore.

Is there a need for such a post? Well, seeing as to how I received the exhortation "Fuck that!" in response to my post wishing you Selamat Hari Raya and appealing for Christians and Muslims to remember that we are all parties to the universal brotherhood of mankind and should respect each other as such, I think you have assured me that such a need exists.

This is not a theological debate but an appeal for us to live up the idealogy of our pledge, even though Old Lee had recently dismissed it as mere aspiration.

I merely posted two verses in the quran to indicate that they contradict to chapter 2:62 that you've quoted .

You had to write an essay to defend the contradiction.

Bottomline: Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god. Allah is the name of the deity! It is not an arabic word for god.

Daisuke-kun

27 Sep 09, 08:26

Originally posted by googoomuck:

I merely posted two verses in the quran to indicate that they contradict to chapter 2:62 that you've quoted .

You had to write an essay to defend the contradiction.

Bottomline: Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god. Allah is the name of the deity! It is not an arabic word for god.

what would you know about allah being a deity.

how would you know that your god is not a deity itself?

fudgester

27 Sep 09, 08:37

Originally posted by googoomuck:

I merely posted two verses in the quran to indicate that they contradict to chapter 2:62 that you've quoted .

You had to write an essay to defend the contradiction.

Bottomline: Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god. Allah is the name of the deity! It is not an arabic word for god.

People were just trying to be nice.

You retorted with (I quote) 'Fuck that!'

I do know that that is certainly very un-Christian behaviour. So I won't attribute your character failings to the whole of Christianity.

googoomuck

27 Sep 09, 09:07

Originally posted by Daisuke-kun:

what would you know about allah being a deity.

how would you know that your god is not a deity itself?

Step by step.

First : Do you acknowledge that Christians and muslims do not worship the same god?

googoomuck

27 Sep 09, 09:08

Originally posted by fudgester:

People were just trying to be nice.

You retorted with (I quote) 'Fuck that!'

I do know that that is certainly very un-Christian behaviour. So I won't attribute your character failings to the whole of Christianity.

Did I say to you that I'm a Christian?

Who is trying to be nice here? DO you mean that he is trying to mislead?

fudgester

27 Sep 09, 09:22

Originally posted by googoomuck:

Did I say to you that I'm a Christian?

Who is trying to be nice here? DO you mean that he is trying to mislead?

Okay then, so you're not Christian.

In his posts, the threadstarter was trying to be nice to everyone regardless of religion.

Short Ninja was being a nice fella by reciprocating the gesture by saying that if someone wishes him well, he should wish the person well in return. That is a highly admirable act on his part, and I wish him well.

Whatever religion you may (or may not) belong to, 'Fuck that!' is not a sporting gesture on your part. So, yeah, I'm taking you to task for that.

Daisuke-kun

27 Sep 09, 09:30

Originally posted by googoomuck:

Step by step.

First : Do you acknowledge that Christians and muslims do not worship the same god?

i can't say anything cause i don't know the truth.

Short Ninja

27 Sep 09, 11:01

Originally posted by googoomuck:

I merely posted two verses in the quran to indicate that they contradict to chapter 2:62 that you've quoted .

You had to write an essay to defend the contradiction.

Bottomline: Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god. Allah is the name of the deity! It is not an arabic word for god.

In Arabic it means, 'God is greatest' by interpreting what it really mean to each indivivual is enough to start a war here.

googoomuck

27 Sep 09, 11:08

Originally posted by fudgester:

Okay then, so you're not Christian.

In his posts, the threadstarter was trying to be nice to everyone regardless of religion.

Short Ninja was being a nice fella by reciprocating the gesture by saying that if someone wishes him well, he should wish the person well in return. That is a highly admirable act on his part, and I wish him well.

Whatever religion you may (or may not) belong to, 'Fuck that!' is not a sporting gesture on your part. So, yeah, I'm taking you to task for that.

To mislead by being 'nice'?

Nothing to do with Short Ninja. Why do you get him involved?

Short Ninja

27 Sep 09, 11:08

Originally posted by googoomuck:

Did I say to you that I'm a Christian?

Who is trying to be nice here? DO you mean that he is trying to mislead?

Anyways, this is suppose to be a peaceful thread if you need a sparring ground there are many threads at present now in the Forum.So again peace ,brother.

googoomuck

27 Sep 09, 11:09

Originally posted by Short Ninja:

In Arabic it means, 'God is greatest' by interpreting what it really mean to each indivivual is enough to start a war here.

can you be more specific? What is "God is Greatest" in Arabic?

googoomuck

27 Sep 09, 11:12

Originally posted by Daisuke-kun:

i can't say anything cause i don't know the truth.

Do you know what is true? Come share with us(or just me) in the forum?