What happen to the Soul when a Person is Death
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My point is that right and wrong is a learnt concept. Similar to incest, adultery...etc.
Humans, like animals, are amoral at birth. So conscience is a learnt concept. Without the concept and enforcement of law to tell us what is right and reminding us of the (bad) consequences of doing wrong, we'll probably be living like cavemen. Murder, Plunder, Pillage will be an everyday occurance. Otherwise, the strong will be always be right, and the weak will always be wrong.
Do you agree with me?
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Originally posted by kilfer:
My understanding of your reply is that both of us agree that the bible can be interpreted in different ways (for both good and bad purposes).
I do not agree that "The interpretations evolve over time. Thats why its a living bible." Science/Law books are more alive than the bible, coz they're constantly updated to suit the times in both text and interpretations, but Science/Law books also do not pretend to be always timeless and always correct.
I mentioned Sun Tzu's Art of War to show that your statement "The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message." is no big deal. Good marketing slogan, but it's actually "meaningless marketing material" to put it nicely :)
As for law to govern the people, my understanding is that God is the author of the bible, but it was written by the hands of men.If God is prescient, then He would have worded it in simple terms which everyone can understand and not be mis-interpreted/abused. For example, Singapore's Law is simple enough to be understandable, comprehensive enough to cover a lot of areas, but far more resistant to mis-interpretation/abuse. Does Singapore Law restrict your autonomy (except where it impinges on another person's rights or safety)?
As for the Ten Commandments, Joshua lived in the time of Moses. After Moses died, he sent the Israelites on a blood bath, exterminating entire tribes. So was Joshua following the Ten Commandments (esp "You shall not murder")?
Well, the difference with science/law text and the bible is that like u said, the textbooks are updated to suit the time, while the bible is not updated, but is interpreted to suit current time. So thats where the differences lie. While u cant use the old and outdated science text book to interprete current updated methods, the bible can. Thats where the mystery lies. The Almighty is all knowing, hence its logical that he doesnt give u a 21century book at a 1000bc timeline.
If its such useless marketing material, it wouldnt be a blockbuster book. 6,000,000,000 copies sold and counting, the first half's great - a real page turner choke-full of monsters, demons, devils, smiting, plagues, trials at the hand of an unsympathetic God, burning bushes and even a spot of nudity. The 2nd half however loses its momentum, it all gets a bit worthy. Good cliffhanger at the end though.
As the 10 commandents, its worded as simple as it can get. But as i said before, its extremely hard to actually follow it, takes man of great faith and principe; and if compare it to laws of sg, u break the law, u get punished for it.. IF u get caught. Break the 10 commandments, its not a matter of if.. its a WILL get caught. And that fear of divine punishment , is more scary then that of earthly punishments. If u truly fear the divine, earthly rules will be much easier to follow.As for Joshua, You shall not murder... doesnt mean u cant kill. Its like how u cant murder in self-defence , u kill. U have to understand that Joshua lived in the old testament, and God then, has shown that providing miracles, speaking to the people, telling to do things that can only take 20th century science to explain proves again that we men, forget. Easily.
And as for the whether restricts ur autonomy.. i seem to recall something about chewing gum. But it was amended. ;p While the bible, yes its ambigous, but the core principle is still the same, no amendment needed.
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Originally posted by Rooney9:
so you an justify the killings, mistreating and slaughtering of animals for food and for fun?
Yes.. i justify the killings for food. For fun, i hunt wild boars and shoot monkeys and birds. Yes. I am just saying... we have the ability to look after the welfare of all living things on this planet. I can choose not to shoot the monkey. Just like how God.. can anytime... send a comet crashing down unto me.
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Chamber of maggots. Ouch. hahaha
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Originally posted by BadzMaro:
Well, the difference with science/law text and the bible is that like u said, the textbooks are updated to suit the time, while the bible is not updated, but is interpreted to suit current time. So thats where the differences lie. While u cant use the old and outdated science text book to interprete current updated methods, the bible can. Thats where the mystery lies. The Almighty is all knowing, hence its logical that he doesnt give u a 21century book at a 1000bc timeline.
If its such useless marketing material, it wouldnt be a blockbuster book. 6,000,000,000 copies sold and counting, the first half's great - a real page turner choke-full of monsters, demons, devils, smiting, plagues, trials at the hand of an unsympathetic God, burning bushes and even a spot of nudity. The 2nd half however loses its momentum, it all gets a bit worthy. Good cliffhanger at the end though.
As the 10 commandents, its worded as simple as it can get. But as i said before, its extremely hard to actually follow it, takes man of great faith and principe; and if compare it to laws of sg, u break the law, u get punished for it.. IF u get caught. Break the 10 commandments, its not a matter of if.. its a WILL get caught. And that fear of divine punishment , is more scary then that of earthly punishments. If u truly fear the divine, earthly rules will be much easier to follow.As for Joshua, You shall not murder... doesnt mean u cant kill. Its like how u cant murder in self-defence , u kill. U have to understand that Joshua lived in the old testament, and God then, has shown that providing miracles, speaking to the people, telling to do things that can only take 20th century science to explain proves again that we men, forget. Easily.
And as for the whether restricts ur autonomy.. i seem to recall something about chewing gum. But it was amended. ;p While the bible, yes its ambigous, but the core principle is still the same, no amendment needed.
The bible itself is also old and outdated. It does not address the multi-racial and multi-religious environments that we are now in. And it can only be updated with holy intervention (when's the last time that it happened?).
"its logical that he doesnt give u a 21century book at a 1000bc timeline."... It'll be probably more logical if He gives us something like the Sun Tze's Art of War. Short, concise, easily understood and and a lot more enduring. A law book will do too.
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2nd para: "If its such useless marketing material, it wouldnt be a blockbuster book. 6,000,000,000 copies sold and counting..."
3rd para: "As the 10 commandents, its worded as simple as it can get. But as i said before, its extremely hard to actually follow it, takes man of great faith and principles..."
from your 2nd para, the 6 billion figure is another "meaningless marketing material". Firstly, it probably has to include all past figures (from ancient times til now) and is difficult to quantify, and 2ndly, I bet that any modern primary school text in China can easily surpass that readership in a few short yrs.
And correct me again if i am wrong, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Your 2nd para is saying that it is wonderful that 6 billion copies were sold, but your 3rd para is telling me that the 6 billion figure means nothing, as "its extremely hard to actually follow it, takes man of great faith and principles". So do you agree with my point about the 6 billion figure, "Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers", is just "useless marketing material" that should not have been raised to add confusion to any discussion?
Your 3rd para is saying that it's ok to kill in self-defence. Did Joshua kill in self-defence or to rob another tribe of their land? And how do you justify self-defence in the killing of women, children and babies?
As for that chewing gum law, it was enacted coz some ir-responsible folks like to stick their used chewing gums everywhere, and caused a nuisance to society (be considerate to the cleaners who are usu poor old and uneducated folks). I'm sure there's something in the bible about care and consideration for the less fortunate. But it's apparently so outdated, ambiguous, misunderstood, poorly taught to Christians that an atheist like myself have to make it more obvious.
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u see, kilfer...its an apple-orange argument...its not tat we dun have explanations or answers to ur qns but we juz dun agree from the very beginning due to our preconceived minset of things...abt whether i agree wif u in ur earlier post at the top of this page...my answer is i dun...but its pointless going on cos we realli wun end up anywhere...
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i definitely do not agree tat conscience is a learnt concept...tats for sure...
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oh, this kind of topic sure mei wan mei liao.
To christians, as long as people don't accept christ, they go hell.
To buddhists, depends on what people are doing while on earth. Good ones reborn as humans, bad ones may reborn as animals.
Seems no definite answer to this question
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u see, its becos u(kilfer) believe in evolution, u will be inclined to believing tat conscience is a learnt behaviour...but to a creationist, the conscience is implanted to us by the creator...both sides have very diff mindsets abt life...the best we can do is to agree to disagree...
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I don't know - as long as we live life to the fullest, conscience is clear and so on, just leave the after death matter to whoever that one believes.
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Originally posted by despondent:
u see, its becos u(kilfer) believe in evolution, u will be inclined to believing tat conscience is a learnt behaviour...but to a creationist, the conscience is implanted to us by the creator...both sides have very diff mindsets abt life...the best we can do is to agree to disagree...
yes, let's just agree to disagree.
i joined in this thread just for the fun of it
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" Dawn :Yeah, I have the same sentiment. Very scary nowadays, so be careful of our actions."
Yeah, your actions (evil or bad) will hv the impact on oneself. Retribution.
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Originally posted by kilfer:
yes, let's just agree to disagree.
i joined in this thread just for the fun of it
I joined here because I want to point out the paradox of the concept of god, the origin of religions and how it came about, and its existence is still debatable after 2 millenniums.
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to kilfer,
ic...haha...too bad not all atheists see it this way...they still feel tat its possible to have a victor in an apple-orange argument/discussion...it shows they dunno wad apple-orange argument realli menas...
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Originally posted by kilfer:
The bible itself is also old and outdated. It does not address the multi-racial and multi-religious environments that we are now in. And it can only be updated with holy intervention (when's the last time that it happened?).
"its logical that he doesnt give u a 21century book at a 1000bc timeline."... It'll be probably more logical if He gives us something like the Sun Tze's Art of War. Short, concise, easily understood and and a lot more enduring. A law book will do too.
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2nd para: "If its such useless marketing material, it wouldnt be a blockbuster book. 6,000,000,000 copies sold and counting..."
3rd para: "As the 10 commandents, its worded as simple as it can get. But as i said before, its extremely hard to actually follow it, takes man of great faith and principles..."
from your 2nd para, the 6 billion figure is another "meaningless marketing material". Firstly, it probably has to include all past figures (from ancient times til now) and is difficult to quantify, and 2ndly, I bet that any modern primary school text in China can easily surpass that readership in a few short yrs.
And correct me again if i am wrong, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Your 2nd para is saying that it is wonderful that 6 billion copies were sold, but your 3rd para is telling me that the 6 billion figure means nothing, as "its extremely hard to actually follow it, takes man of great faith and principles". So do you agree with my point about the 6 billion figure, "Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers", is just "useless marketing material" that should not have been raised to add confusion to any discussion?
Your 3rd para is saying that it's ok to kill in self-defence. Did Joshua kill in self-defence or to rob another tribe of their land? And how do you justify self-defence in the killing of women, children and babies?
As for that chewing gum law, it was enacted coz some ir-responsible folks like to stick their used chewing gums everywhere, and caused a nuisance to society (be considerate to the cleaners who are usu poor old and uneducated folks). I'm sure there's something in the bible about care and consideration for the less fortunate. But it's apparently so outdated, ambiguous, misunderstood, poorly taught to Christians that an atheist like myself have to make it more obvious.
One question for you. Have u read the bible ? Once you read it, u will determine to urself whether to believe or not. You need to read to understand WHY the bible God intended the way He did. It doesnt take a few simple paragraphs to explain the reasoning behind the way God authored his book. Holy intervention ? Sure.. maybe it has happened or its going to happen. Like i said again, holy intervention has happened before and men still forget, and trust me.. one big one will come. Oh it will.
And regarding the 6 billion copies, it was meant as a more jovial statement regarding ur marketing statement. Regarding raising confusion, there is nothing to be confused about. Its a statement of fact.
Did the bible say he was justified ? Did he reap what he sow in the end ? Even if it was justified, who are you to question him if he was given vision, or told by God to wipe out the entire tribe ? Even so, who is Joshua to ask God why, and have the Almighty tell u when all he asks is ur faith. U must remember, its an issue of faith. Its simple, if God turns up, blinds me in a beam of blinding light, tells me to go down the mountain to kill all the villagers , what will i do? We are talking about God here. Not some other dude telling me to do something. My faith has to be strong to determine whether is this a satanic trap ? or is it really God ? How well do i know God ? Its a do or die.. and the only person to blame is not God.. but man himself. Why must God tell u all his plans, wiping out the tribe may have saved the entire planet from a virus. You dont know. I dont want to use the God works in mysterious ways as you people will just scoff at it. In the end, its really up to you to really understand the bible and its meaning. Did the bible say we must kill? Should we instead have blind faith ? Because whatever it is, all these can be a test. I may be tested right at this moment.
How can taking care of the poor , consideration for the less fortunate be outdated, ambuguous , misunderstood and poorly taught to Christians when the major driving force for humanitarian missions all over the world since before you where born, is out of the teachings of love and compassion . You claiming it is not obvious because you make it obvious to yourself because you have yet to read the bible, if not, how can u even say that its teachings are so ambiguous? What do u think alot of christian groups are doing since centuries ago, is it not .. obvious that the core principle teachings are at work here, there is no need to update how when and who we give love and compassion to. You dont see christian groups going in with machine guns and tanks right ? How many christian doctors , engineers , volunteers went in to help.. just to be beheaded, shot, killed, raped.. and told to deny thier faith before biting the bullet. U tell me.
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badzmaro, they dun even believe God exists...how can u expect them to see things from God's point of view??? they can onli see from man's point of view and based on their own judgement/observation...we are also humans, so u shld noe wad i mean...
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pray, there are so many religions out there professing to be true (I am not going to name of the religion specificially) present and in the past. do u know that in India alone, there are some 300 plus religions, all preaching their god in one way or another.
To me, there are no differences because as long as there is a concept of god, whether there is a single, duo, trio of god, or polytheism, there exists the paradoxes and the existence of god in question.
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"Fan : oh, this kind of topic sure mei wan mei liao.
To christians, as long as people don't accept christ, they go hell.
To buddhists, depends on what people are doing while on earth. Good ones reborn as humans, bad ones may reborn as animals.
Seems no definite answer to this question"
Agreed. That is why I throw this question for christian to answer, but no one dare to answer this simple question. They cannot find the answer in their bible. Thus, they cannot give answer.
10 pple died, who go to heaven?
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For someone who has never read the bible, its hard for them to understand why. But for someone like that has a liberal mind in science and technology and a liberal christian that understood the faith,i CAN see the atheists point of view while atheists cannot see the view of Christians. Thats why, the debate and argument can be tiring.. especially for me. Because i have hold ur hand n lead u through the interpretations when its already hard enough not just me, but Christians and Christian scholars alike to interprete the bible. Thats why i dont blame you for not truly understanding the bible, but only the general surfaces of it, thats why u only attack the surfaces of the verses in the bible e.g Joshua and the killings.
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Originally posted by likeyou:
"Fan : oh, this kind of topic sure mei wan mei liao.
To christians, as long as people don't accept christ, they go hell.
To buddhists, depends on what people are doing while on earth. Good ones reborn as humans, bad ones may reborn as animals.
Seems no definite answer to this question"
Agreed. That is why I throw this question for christian to answer, but no one dare to answer this simple question. They cannot find the answer in their bible. Thus, they cannot give answer.
10 pple died, who go to heaven?
The answer was given to you .. and this is about the fourth time. Its simple. Christian point of view. All goes to hell. BUT awaiting final judgement where ALL will be judged. Believers and Non-believers alike.. how many more times do i have to repeat it.
Doesnt this show compassion that the Almighty is not as cold as you guys think. Sure, u suffer a while because of ur lack of faith, or when given the opportunity u did not accept him. He knows men are weak. He knows us too well. But he loves all of us.
Does that answer ur question ? Or u got more questions. This time, with different variations and denominations.
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Originally posted by likeyou:
"Fan : oh, this kind of topic sure mei wan mei liao.
To christians, as long as people don't accept christ, they go hell.
To buddhists, depends on what people are doing while on earth. Good ones reborn as humans, bad ones may reborn as animals.
Seems no definite answer to this question"
Agreed. That is why I throw this question for christian to answer, but no one dare to answer this simple question. They cannot find the answer in their bible. Thus, they cannot give answer.
10 pple died, who go to heaven?
They can quote bible verses to support what they say. Whatever, reality is reality. Too much contradictions in the bible. They can also claim that their penalty for sins are taken away by jesus when he was crucified and as such they can go heaven.christianity should not give the false impression that everyone who accepts jesus can go heaven. Jesus himself said that not everyone who called him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. It is those who do the will of the father and blah blah blah will.
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Why everything must be bible bible, read bible read bible?
Cant one think for himself, make self judgement and decisions? Why all must be bible bible and bible?
Life is very simple. Just a simple logic way of life. Be good, be kind, be humble, do good deeds, helpful, dont curse...if can do this, you are a good person lah. Dont need to read bible this bible that. Simple way of life still need bible to guide you?
Smackhead!
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Originally posted by likeyou:
Why everything must be bible bible, read bible read bible?
Cant one think for himself, make self judgement and decisions? Why all must be bible bible and bible?
Life is very simple. Just a simple logic way of life. Be good, be kind, be humble, do good deeds, helpful, dont curse...if can do this, you are a good person lah. Dont need to read bible this bible that. Simple way of life still need bible to guide you?
Smackhead!
To christians, bible is the word of god. They are taught to believe, read, meditate and put into practice what the bible says. -
"Christian point of view. All goes to hell."
That is christians view. Did your GOD say that: "Non chris all go to hell?"
If you claim your GOD indeed say that, then I would suggest pple not to take up christianity. Cos of you, that make your GOD very narrow minded.