What happen to the Soul when a Person is Death
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
Could it be possible that some animals do have conscience and some humans dont?
My cats miss me.
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not from christian context cos we define conscience as knowing rite from wrong...this is diff from doing wads rite and not doing wads wrong...so its more of the knowing...do animals noe wads rite and wrong?
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Originally posted by Chew Bakar:
My cats miss me.
Ok I realised I must have posted that comment in the wrong Forum but then you were quick to reply>LOL -
Originally posted by Short Ninja:
Ok I realised I must have posted that comment in the wrong Forum but then you were quick to reply>LOL
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Originally posted by despondent:
not from christian context cos we define conscience as knowing rite from wrong...this is diff from doing wads rite and not doing wads wrong...so its more of the knowing...do animals noe wads rite and wrong?
Yes, animals to a certain extend knows what they are not supposed to do.What they are supposed to do? Ar that one you can train them >LOL
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One thing for sure animals dont appreciate the beauty of mother nature. Why the tree's grow.. and why the gazelles roam the plains with such grace. To them, Gazelles = Food with legs and runs away from you when u try to go after it. LOL!
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
Yes, animals to a certain extend knows what they are not supposed to do.What they are supposed to do? Ar that one you can train them >LOL
Sometimes you read in news that dogs save owner from fire or something like that, that is conscience I suppose.
Did the owner give the dog any fire drill; I'm sure he didn't.
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they noe wad is according to instinct...the qn is do they noe wad is moral and immoral? they dun...their lives are all abt survival...like wad badzmaro said...they cun appreciate beauty, have no sense of beauty...
dogs save their owners cos they feel indebted to them...do humans have to save another cos we feel indebted to them? no...i see humans saving another who is a complete stranger...
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Originally posted by BadzMaro:
One thing for sure animals dont appreciate the beauty of mother nature. Why the tree's grow.. and why the gazelles roam the plains with such grace. To them, Gazelles = Food with legs and runs away from you when u try to go after it. LOL!
They are part of nature so no need for them to take a written exam to see if they are aware ar not and if humans knows how to appreciate mother Earth then why are we having polution and global warming problems? Not fair to say pigs and cows got no concience just because we eat them>LOL -
Originally posted by despondent:
they noe wad is according to instinct...the qn is do they noe wad is moral and immoral? they dun...their lives are all abt survival...like wad badzmaro said...they cun appreciate beauty, have no sense of beauty...
dogs save their owners cos they feel indebted to them...do humans have to save another cos we feel indebted to them? no...i see humans saving another who is a complete stranger...
Sorry I dont buy your logic here????? You have to do better than that. -
well, when i offered explanation, i did so juz to prove tat u guys wun buy the logic or wun agree...i alredi said in my earlier posts...the preconceived mindsets from both sides are alredi very diff...i am sure badz maro will buy my logic...cos u see, as christians we have a diff set of definitions and understanding of terms and things ard us...to me, wad i shared makes complete sense and i can see the diff btw humans and animals...i stressed juz now that its not abt doing wads rite. its abt knowing wads rite...having pollution and global problems are the results of doing...but do they noe wads rite? i believe deep down inside they noe...but greed, fame wadever reasons cos them to go against wad their conscience tell them...when we lie, do we do so cos we dunno its wrong to lie? no, rather its cos we cun bring ourselved to tell the truth...
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
They are part of nature so no need for them to take a written exam to see if they are aware ar not and if humans knows how to appreciate mother Earth then why are we having polution and global warming problems? Not fair to say pigs and cows got no concience just because we eat them>LOLThey are put on this planet.. to FEEED US...
lol
We are masters over them. They cant protect themselves from us. Thier very existence .. rests in our hands.
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and tat ties in wif wad the bible said abt humans having dominion over animals...they cun stop us from killing them...but we can stop ourselves from being killed by them...y? cos we are smarter than them...we noe how to avoid places where they may find us...but they dunno how to hide from us...and dun have the equipment to protect themselves...
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Originally posted by BadzMaro:
Well, the interpretations themselves are always subject to misconceptions and misinterpretations over time as people begin to have thier own set of ideas and meaning. No doubt about that, what is more important is the originality of the text itself and the teachings of the original text re-interpreted to the times now.The interpretations evolve over time. Thats why its a living bible. Sun Tzu's art of war is a military , its chapters all dedicated to aspects of war. But it can hardly be compared to the bible in terms of the area's it covers. Applying Sun Tzu to business, i does not talk anything about compassion love fear. It is easier to apply Sun Tzu's method because the wars now fought, are economic wars.
When u talk about laws to govern people, u must ask urself where did these laws come from? The jurisprudence behind it ? Should we have laws that list down exactly what we should do and what we should not do ? Will it be too arbitrary ? Will it restrict our autonomy ? How will it fair against the state and the people ? Should we be told what the law IS.. or what the law Ought to be ? Do we even know what the law is? How do u know it ? Sure, there are always ambiquous terms subject to interpretation when the person drafted it. But like all laws they can be reformed, they can be amended. It has always been and will continue to do so. But for the bible, it cant be amended, its text cant be changed, hence its natural that the ambiguity of its meaning can be subject to questioning over time. So this wont be the end of the debate. It will continue on for a long long time.
And trust me... God has given a simple 10 commandents on what IS the law. And it takes someone of great faith and principle to follow the simple 10 rules. Now imagine u got 1001 of them. We will all be hanged. Every one of us.
My understanding of your reply is that both of us agree that the bible can be interpreted in different ways (for both good and bad purposes).
I do not agree that "The interpretations evolve over time. Thats why its a living bible." Science/Law books are more alive than the bible, coz they're constantly updated to suit the times in both text and interpretations, but Science/Law books also do not pretend to be always timeless and always correct.
I mentioned Sun Tzu's Art of War to show that your statement "The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message." is no big deal. Good marketing slogan, but it's actually "meaningless marketing material" to put it nicely :)
As for law to govern the people, my understanding is that God is the author of the bible, but it was written by the hands of men.If God is prescient, then He would have worded it in simple terms which everyone can understand and not be mis-interpreted/abused. For example, Singapore's Law is simple enough to be understandable, comprehensive enough to cover a lot of areas, but far more resistant to mis-interpretation/abuse. Does Singapore Law restrict your autonomy (except where it impinges on another person's rights or safety)?
As for the Ten Commandments, Joshua lived in the time of Moses. After Moses died, he sent the Israelites on a blood bath, exterminating entire tribes. So was Joshua following the Ten Commandments (esp "You shall not murder")?
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Originally posted by BadzMaro:
They are put on this planet.. to FEEED US...
lol
We are masters over them. They cant protect themselves from us. Thier very existence .. rests in our hands.
Originally posted by despondent:and tat ties in wif wad the bible said abt humans having dominion over animals...they cun stop us from killing them...but we can stop ourselves from being killed by them...y? cos we are smarter than them...we noe how to avoid places where they may find us...but they dunno how to hide from us...and dun have the equipment to protect themselves...
How can you take the life out of living things? Where's your conscience? -
Originally posted by BadzMaro:
They are put on this planet.. to FEEED US...
lol
We are masters over them. They cant protect themselves from us. Thier very existence .. rests in our hands.
so you an justify the killings, mistreating and slaughtering of animals for food and for fun?
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well, if u want to take badzmaro literally, ignoring the pun intended...then theres nth we can do...
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Originally posted by despondent:
well-said badzmaro, but again, they sure will have sth to say against it...
anyway, juz curious...does evolution provide any explanation how animals wif no conscience became human beings wif conscience?
despondent, on a more serious note, I refer to to this video again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=904cSdShfic
Where is the conscience of the Israelites when they exterminated entire tribes (incl women, children and babies)?
And just out of curiosity... At that point in time, are the Israelites the largest (and maybe only) group of Christians in the whole of earth?
Don't hide behind badzmaro, I want to hear your views on this.
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i alredi said tat conscience is abt knowing wad is rite and not doing wad is gd...dun u see the fine line btw the 2? i can noe tat stealing is wrong but still go ahead and steal...so does tis mean i dun have a conscience? y do u keep seeing the conscience as doing? we have a conscience but also the ability to go against it...
abt whether they were the largest group of christians at tat pt of time, i dunno tat...sorry
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Originally posted by despondent:
i alredi said tat conscience is abt knowing wad is rite and not doing wad is gd...dun u see the fine line btw the 2? i can noe tat stealing is wrong but still go ahead and steal...so does tis mean i dun have a conscience? y do u keep seeing the conscience as doing? we have a conscience but also the ability to go against it...
abt whether they were the largest group of christians at tat pt of time, i dunno tat...sorry
Sure, then let's move to a highly moral topic of incest. Do animals commit incest?
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can i have ur definition of incest?
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Let's restrict the definition of Incest to any sexual activity within the immediate family.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest:
"Incest is any sexual activity between close relatives (often within the immediate family) irrespective of the ages of the participants and irrespective of their consent, that is illegal, socially taboo or contrary to a religious norm."
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ok...i am sure animals do that much more than humans...anyway, juz a pt to add...has it ever occur to u tat since we noe wads rite and gd, we will also noe the reverse? the bible recorded abt the knowledge of good and evil, didnt it? in psychology, i studied tat aniamals learnt thru operant conditioning...they dun learn by intelligence and analysis. its thru the same thing repeating and repeating again and again...true, we humans learn this way too...but its not the onli way for us to learn...compared to animals...
u want to tok abt animals committing incest? how abt adultery? do we have more humans doing tat or animals?
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Originally posted by despondent:
ok...i am sure animals do that much more than humans...anyway, juz a pt to add...has it ever occur to u tat since we noe wads rite and gd, we will also noe the reverse? the bible recorded abt the knowledge of good and evil, didnt it? in psychology, i studied tat aniamals learnt thru operant conditioning...they dun learn by intelligence and analysis. its thru the same thing repeating and repeating again and again...true, we humans learn this way too...but its not the onli way for us to learn...compared to animals...
u want to tok abt animals committing incest? how abt adultery? do we have more humans doing tat or animals?
yes, animals commit incest too on a higher probability than humans, but it is not that widespread, otherwise the entire animal tribe will die out due to genetic problems. That is learning, and it is part of evolution. Humans learnt through the same mechanisms too.
You are right that humans have other mechanisms to learn too (like recorded material). That is because our learning capability is far more advanced than animals. Do you know what is right and what is wrong from learnt behavior, or do you know it the moment that you were born? In other words, are you are you amoral at birth, or are you morally aware?
As for adultery, it is difficult to apply it to animals, as they have a different social hierarchy. There are bird species that pairs up for life --- one mate for an entire life time, and from what is observed so far, they are easily more faithful than humans. E.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herring_Gull -
ok...and ur point being? tat animals know wad is rite and wrong equally as humans?