Last night I was with my Christian friend at the Jurong West Library.I asked my friend about the book of romans and he said it is the chimest in the bible.I don't agree with him.I think it is a book of confusion as it contradicts with the rest of what is written in the bible.Later I borrowed a Chinese library book called the Ten Commandments which quotes quite a lot from the book of romans.And I can see for myself how confused it was.
No it isnt... Pauls book of Romans is of the New Covenant, the 10 commandments are of the Old, of course without reading the whole book you can get confused.. I suggest that you start with the book of Galations before all other chapters as it sets the foundation ..
Romans is also not the chim-est book of all, but Revelations. If you dont have a thorough understanding of the Bible, Revelations is a super scary and confusing book , but if you know your way, then it is a treasure map of great prophecy...
I myself have not yet touched Revelations on my own.. only read what my Pastor has touched ... i'm not ready yet...
Originally posted by SPDCP:No it isnt... Pauls book of Romans is of the New Covenant, the 10 commandments are of the Old, of course without reading the whole book you can get confused.. I suggest that you start with the book of Galations before all other chapters as it sets the foundation ..
Romans is also not the chim-est book of all, but Revelations. If you dont have a thorough understanding of the Bible, Revelations is a super scary and confusing book , but if you know your way, then it is a treasure map of great prophecy...
I myself have not yet touched Revelations on my own.. only read what my Pastor has touched ... i'm not ready yet...
haha..revelations is ok lah...just got to know which are symbolic..which are literal just like other parts of the bible..and rev is the most interesting..as it draws to a close on this world system
Is the book of romans biblical?Is it a good soulwinning tool?
Originally posted by Stomp661:Last night I was with my Christian friend at the Jurong West Library.I asked my friend about the book of romans and he said it is the chimest in the bible.I don't agree with him.I think it is a book of confusion as it contradicts with the rest of what is written in the bible.Later I borrowed a Chinese library book called the Ten Commandments which quotes quite a lot from the book of romans.And I can see for myself how confused it was.
The only reason why christians are so confused by the book of romans is because of the mindset. Rav Shaul (Paul) was a jew, who learned at the feet of Gamaliel, a Jew of Jews. christians try to interpret what Rav Shaul says from a greek hellenistic mindset rather than a hebraic mindset and hence all that confusion.
Originally posted by SPDCP:No it isnt... Pauls book of Romans is of the New Covenant, the 10 commandments are of the Old, of course without reading the whole book you can get confused.. I suggest that you start with the book of Galations before all other chapters as it sets the foundation ..
Romans is also not the chim-est book of all, but Revelations. If you dont have a thorough understanding of the Bible, Revelations is a super scary and confusing book , but if you know your way, then it is a treasure map of great prophecy...
I myself have not yet touched Revelations on my own.. only read what my Pastor has touched ... i'm not ready yet...
just how is Torah an old covenant? the laws of Yahweh have not changed. Another reason why christians cannot understand Romans is becuase they disregard much of the Tenakh. I dare say that most of the Brit Chadashah is comprised of the Tenakh. How can one start reading from the middle of the story book and understand the whole story? But that is what christians do exactly.
Originally posted by SPDCP:No it isnt... Pauls book of Romans is of the New Covenant, the 10 commandments are of the Old, of course without reading the whole book you can get confused.. I suggest that you start with the book of Galations before all other chapters as it sets the foundation ..
Romans is also not the chim-est book of all, but Revelations. If you dont have a thorough understanding of the Bible, Revelations is a super scary and confusing book , but if you know your way, then it is a treasure map of great prophecy...
I myself have not yet touched Revelations on my own.. only read what my Pastor has touched ... i'm not ready yet...
Just curious, just what is the new covenant?
The New Covenant is one where righteousness is not earned, but imparted/given..
This righteousness, is the same righteousness as the one Abraham received when he lived on earth. A righteousness that never disappeared even when he did wrong. It is a righteousness that brought life, and life more abundantly!
As for why the Old Covenant refers to the Torah, or the 10 commandments, I'll let Paul explain. NOTE: Paul really wrote this, I'm not making it up...in the context, he is explaining to the Galatians their error in going back to the Torah for their righteousness...
"21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."
Under the Torah, your righteousness depends on how well you can keep the law. In the New Covenant, your righteousness depends on a promise. What is this promise?
the promise that was made to Abraham, when God took him out to see the stars, Abraham believed, and because he believed, righteousness was given/imparted to him...
Originally posted by SPDCP:The New Covenant is one where righteousness is not earned, but imparted/given..
This righteousness, is the same righteousness as the one Abraham received when he lived on earth. A righteousness that never disappeared even when he did wrong. It is a righteousness that brought life, and life more abundantly!
As for why the Old Covenant refers to the Torah, or the 10 commandments, I'll let Paul explain. NOTE: Paul really wrote this, I'm not making it up...in the context, he is explaining to the Galatians their error in going back to the Torah for their righteousness...
"21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."
Under the Torah, your righteousness depends on how well you can keep the law. In the New Covenant, your righteousness depends on a promise. What is this promise?
the promise that was made to Abraham, when God took him out to see the stars, Abraham believed, and because he believed, righteousness was given/imparted to him...
So are you sayint that Torah is abolished? That we do not need to keep Torah anymore?
It is not abolished, ... Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.. A covenant is an agreement is it not? If we have an agreement, and one of us fails to uphold it, then the one who fails needs to pay some compensation.. Likewise, man made an agreement with God. If we obey His Law, then we get blessed. If not, the curse would fall upon us.. And almost immediately, we see the golden calf.. first law already broken... so we have to pay... with our life... But then Jesus came... He shed His blood for our sins, and some common sense will do us good here.. once the debt has been paid, stop paying!
Now, with the new covenant, God said He will write the laws no longer on stone, but on hearts... Men obey God no longer to deserve it, but because they are accepted, they reciprocate His love.. Thats why Paul says, We love, because He FIRST loved us..
Also, with Christ working IN us, we are able to work it OUT, and be a testimony to the world...
Originally posted by SPDCP:It is not abolished, ... Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.. A covenant is an agreement is it not? If we have an agreement, and one of us fails to uphold it, then the one who fails needs to pay some compensation.. Likewise, man made an agreement with God. If we obey His Law, then we get blessed. If not, the curse would fall upon us.. And almost immediately, we see the golden calf.. first law already broken... so we have to pay... with our life... But then Jesus came... He shed His blood for our sins, and some common sense will do us good here.. once the debt has been paid, stop paying!
Now, with the new covenant, God said He will write the laws no longer on stone, but on hearts... Men obey God no longer to deserve it, but because they are accepted, they reciprocate His love.. Thats why Paul says, We love, because He FIRST loved us..
Also, with Christ working IN us, we are able to work it OUT, and be a testimony to the world...
so are you then saying that we do not need to keep Torah? that keeping Torah brings us into bondage??
Can i quote you Apostle Peter's answer?
It is written, in Acts 15: 4 to 10: " 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"
Originally posted by SPDCP:Can i quote you Apostle Peter's answer?
It is written, in Acts 15: 4 to 10: " 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"
you are taking scripture out of context again. and this still does not answer my question to you.
Originally posted by SPDCP:Can i quote you Apostle Peter's answer?
It is written, in Acts 15: 4 to 10: " 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"
Taking acts 15 again... verse 21 From the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat...
The starting point is that goyim who turn to Maschiach are not be be too heavily burdened at first, but as they listen to the Torah every Shabbat, they will learn the ways of Yahweh.
So why then did Yeshua say keep my commandments?
Originally posted by SPDCP:It is not abolished, ... Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.. A covenant is an agreement is it not? If we have an agreement, and one of us fails to uphold it, then the one who fails needs to pay some compensation.. Likewise, man made an agreement with God. If we obey His Law, then we get blessed. If not, the curse would fall upon us.. And almost immediately, we see the golden calf.. first law already broken... so we have to pay... with our life... But then Jesus came... He shed His blood for our sins, and some common sense will do us good here.. once the debt has been paid, stop paying!
Now, with the new covenant, God said He will write the laws no longer on stone, but on hearts... Men obey God no longer to deserve it, but because they are accepted, they reciprocate His love.. Thats why Paul says, We love, because He FIRST loved us..
Also, with Christ working IN us, we are able to work it OUT, and be a testimony to the world...
So if Torah is written on our hearts and in our minds what does that mean? We live Torah.
How am i misquoting? Lol... What you are saying by asking me those questions is like what is being asked in Acts 15, only phrased differently!
It is perfectly reasonable to return the question by asking you this.. By asking me : "so are you then saying that we do not need to keep Torah? that keeping Torah brings us into bondage??", are you saying that it is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses?
If so, then my answer is EXACTLY what Peter answers.. "why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"
By this , it is clear that Peter is saying that the Law was a burden to them, that they were unable to bear...
Originally posted by breytonhartge:So if Torah is written on our hearts and in our minds what does that mean? We live Torah.
YES! You live it out! Not by focusing on right and wrong, NOT because there is punishment if you fail, but because there is LIFE when you live Torah! Living Torah should be a delight! It should be second nature to us! When I worship God, it is a delight! When I do things that please God, it brings me JOY to know that I have pleased my Abba! Jesus says in Matthew 11 : 30 " my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Barukh Hashem! I love God! WHoo!! Writing all these reminds me how much i am loved.. thanks Brey!
Originally posted by SPDCP:How am i misquoting? Lol... What you are saying by asking me those questions is like what is being asked in Acts 15, only phrased differently!
It is perfectly reasonable to return the question by asking you this.. By asking me : "so are you then saying that we do not need to keep Torah? that keeping Torah brings us into bondage??", are you saying that it is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses?
If so, then my answer is EXACTLY what Peter answers.. "why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?"
By this , it is clear that Peter is saying that the Law was a burden to them, that they were unable to bear...
Your answer reflects very accurately the greek/roman christian mindset. They cannot make the distinction between the Torah of Yahweh, and the Torah of the Pharisees which is leagalism. Yet the Pharisees did not get it all wrong according to Yeshua. The driving force for the legalism of the Pharisees is that they did not want to transgress Torah, but they went about it in a very kia su way so much so that they had prohibitions on prohibitions so that they would not transgress Torah.
This legalistic Torah of the Pharisees is what was meant when Kefa speaks about the yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear...
Seriously do you think that obeying the Torah of Yahweh will bring us into bondage?
The truth sets us free.
KJV John 8:31-32 Then said Yeshua to those Jews which believed on him, If
ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make
you free.
The Torah is truth
KJV Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
and thy law is the truth.
KJV Malachi 2:6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was
not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did
turn many away from iniquity.
Originally posted by SPDCP:YES! You live it out! Not by focusing on right and wrong, NOT because there is punishment if you fail, but because there is LIFE when you live Torah! Living Torah should be a delight! It should be second nature to us! When I worship God, it is a delight! When I do things that please God, it brings me JOY to know that I have pleased my Abba! Jesus says in Matthew 11 : 30 " my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Barukh Hashem! I love God! WHoo!! Writing all these reminds me how much i am loved.. thanks Brey!
Then if you do not focus on what is right and wrong in the eyes of Yahweh, how do you know you are doing what pleases Him?? Torah only gives life when you live it according to how Yahweh says we should. In the end in order for us to know whether we have kept His word, we have to refer back to His word. That is the bench mark.
Yet the Pharisees did not get it all wrong according to Yeshua. The driving force for the legalism of the Pharisees is that they did not want to transgress Torah, but they went about it in a very kia su way so much so that they had prohibitions on prohibitions so that they would not transgress Torah.
Sorry, I'm afraid that the Law of the Pharisees was actually way lower than that of the Law of Yahweh...
The Law of the Pharisees was brought down to a level where they could keep it... then they condemned those who were unable to keep their standards.. But God's standard is way higher.
See, if it was not , then Jesus would not have brought the law back to its high standard by saying :
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
"27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."
33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. "
"48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
How can I tell the difference? Because in this whole passage, Jesus never said:" It is written." He said :" You have heard... or It has been said... " And in those days, not everyone has a torah in their house... only the priests had access and the people would gather on the Shabbat, then the priests would teach.. So what the people were doing was the priests standard... not God's standard..
Seriously do you think that obeying the Torah of Yahweh will bring us into bondage?
Yes I do. Because it is written so. Let me show you the comparisons..
I state 2nd Corinthians whole of Chapter 4... Is it okay if I dont post the whole thing? kinda long.. xD
But ill highlight some key areas..
Old Covenant(OC) : letter kills
New Covenant(NC): the Spirit gives life
OC: ministry that brought death
NC: ministry of the Spirit
OC: ministry that condemns men is glorious
NC: how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
OC: that which lasts!
OC: not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.
NC: 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
OC: No Spirit mentioned
NC: 7Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
The Torah is truth
KJV Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
and thy law is the truth.
Let me show you the ENTIRE paragraph..
"137 Righteous are you, O LORD,
and your laws are right.
138 The statutes you have laid down are righteous;
they are fully trustworthy.
139 My zeal wears me out,
for my enemies ignore your words.
140 Your promises have been thoroughly tested,
and your servant loves them.
141 Though I am lowly and despised,
I do not forget your precepts.
142 Your righteousness is everlasting
and your law is true.
143 Trouble and distress have come upon me,
but your commands are my delight.
144 Your statutes are forever right;
give me understanding that I may live.
What is being said here, is that God's Law will keep to its promises. It is true to its statutes. It will not bend away, it is righteous! BUT the Law cannot make you righteous.. It is like a mirror, reflecting all our flaws.. A mirror tells the truth. A mirror can show you where the dirt is... but it cannot make you clean..rubbing your face with the mirror wont change a thing..
Now, my friend, let me show you where the truth that sets you free comes from...
John 1 :17 For the law was given through Moses; but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Now, the law was given. You can give from a distance.. But grace AND truth CAME through Jesus Christ. Notice truth is on the side of grace? Grace and truth are one!
Then if you do not focus on what is right and wrong in the eyes of Yahweh, how do you know you are doing what pleases Him?
Now, are we going to commit the same mistake as Adam? God said not to touch the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.. Let us instead go to the tree of Life!
What is this tree of life? I'll give an example. Lets say a man is trying to lose weight.. The tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil will say "Excersise more because it will make you healthy!" or "Eat less sugar! Its not good for you!" Good and evil..
But the tree of Life will say: "Do you desire to eat donuts? if so, eat. Do you want to excersise today? if not, rest."
This has actually worked... a Pastor has lost weight by this revelation.
If a person thinks, "ooh.. so by eating donuts i'll lose weight", he is going back to tree of knowledge of good and evil, and he'll fall sick from donuts..Its not concepts or knowing what is good, what is bad, but what has revelation and life!
OC no spirit? read Beresheet 1:2...
so also to say that before Yeshua, there was no grace and there was no truth??
C'mon, thats kinda grasping at straws now isnt it? Let me rephrase... There is no mention of the Spirit ever helping people to attempt to keep the whole Law simply because it is right and wrong..
Right now, without looking at your references/Bible/Tanakh/Torah , recite the Law, from first commandment to the last, word for word.. honestly.. could you do it? There are so few.. so few who can truthfully memorise by heart the 10 commandments.. and they spent how many weeks and hours before it was even possible..
But even a little child knows John 3:16, and some even the following verse 17.. : For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him..
I gtg to bed now.. tmr starting first day at work and i need rest.. Shalom !
KJV 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and KEEPETH NOT his
COMMANDMENTS, is a LIAR, and the truth is not in him.
Originally posted by SPDCP:C'mon, thats kinda grasping at straws now isnt it? Let me rephrase... There is no mention of the Spirit ever helping people to attempt to keep the whole Law simply because it is right and wrong..
Right now, without looking at your references/Bible/Tanakh/Torah , recite the Law, from first commandment to the last, word for word.. honestly.. could you do it? There are so few.. so few who can truthfully memorise by heart the 10 commandments.. and they spent how many weeks and hours before it was even possible..
But even a little child knows John 3:16, and some even the following verse 17.. : For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him..
I gtg to bed now.. tmr starting first day at work and i need rest.. Shalom !
You mean you cannot remember the 10 mitzvot of Yahweh? Before any Jewish male goes for barmitzva, he would already know all this by heart and more. Many people know and can recite the 10 quite easily.