Originally posted by breytonhartge:Everything that you have been taught, everything that you know, go and check it against what the bible says, do your research and you will have your answer.
It might shock you to know that almost all, if not all, doctrines of the RC Church are actually based on the Bible. And the good book itself was documented, compiled and provided by the RC Church way back in 300+ AD. For scriptural references to RC doctrines, pls see http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
Originally posted by Servant:It might shock you to know that almost all, if not all, doctrines of the RC Church are actually based on the Bible. And the good book itself was documented, compiled and provided by the RC Church way back in 300+ AD. For scriptural references to RC doctrines, pls see http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
oh really? i had not realised ; ) ... the rc church or any church for that matter no way espouse the values and the teachings in the Tenach or the Brit Chadashah. My I remind you that an earlier version of this good book existed before the rc church... catholic scripture twists and turns the truth of the bible into man made lies.
Originally posted by Servant:It might shock you to know that almost all, if not all, doctrines of the RC Church are actually based on the Bible. And the good book itself was documented, compiled and provided by the RC Church way back in 300+ AD. For scriptural references to RC doctrines, pls see http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
i am so shocked..far as i remember..bible says no rosaries to be used..no idolatry..just some of the nos..but i dont see that in RCC??
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Everything that you have been taught, everything that you know, go and check it against what the bible says, do your research and you will have your answer.
Done dat over the years...the rc teaches what is in the jerusalem bible. so wats next?
Originally posted by breytonhartge:oh really? i had not realised ; ) ... the rc church or any church for that matter no way espouse the values and the teachings in the Tenach or the Brit Chadashah. My I remind you that an earlier version of this good book existed before the rc church... catholic scripture twists and turns the truth of the bible into man made lies.
for example?
Originally posted by +Sikoyo+:Done dat over the years...the rc teaches what is in the jerusalem bible. so wats next?
nope sorry the rc does not teach what is in the tenach. who are you trying to kid?
It does not keep Shabbat, it does not keep biblically kosher, it does not celebrate the feast of Yahweh, it does not observe the 10 mitzvot that Yahweh has given us to keep, it has introduced pagan festivals into the church and turned man away from Yahweh. Just to name a few.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:oh really? i had not realised ; ) ... the rc church or any church for that matter no way espouse the values and the teachings in the Tenach or the Brit Chadashah. My I remind you that an earlier version of this good book existed before the rc church... catholic scripture twists and turns the truth of the bible into man made lies.
So according to your assertion, wouldn't this mean that the Bible that is cherished by millions of Christians worldwide is actually a fake since the RC Church 'twisted' it?
Originally posted by Servant:So according to your assertion, wouldn't this mean that the Bible that is cherished by millions of Christians worldwide is actually a fake since the RC Church 'twisted' it?
wrong, the Tenach and the Brit Chadashah tell the truth, it is the rc church that has not kept the truth of the Tenach and the Brit Chadashah, the word of Yahweh is never fake.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:wrong, the Tenach and the Brit Chadashah tell the truth, it is the rc church that has not kept the truth of the Tenach and the Brit Chadashah, the word of Yahweh is never fake.
Hmm, since your reply doesn't really address my question, I'll take it that your answer is yes.
Gosh, I wonder how many Christians out there would be willing to dump their Bibles since what they hold in their hands is twisted or corrupted, according to your really strange theory...
Originally posted by domonkassyu:i am so shocked..far as i remember..bible says no rosaries to be used..no idolatry..just some of the nos..but i dont see that in RCC??
Not quite, the Lord made it clear in the Bible to worship Him and Him alone as the Israelites tended to stray by making idols of imaginary gods (eg golden calf). He knows we human beings can be so easily distracted, and having an image to focus on can improve our prayer life with Him. In fact, the Lord Himself asked for images to be made in His honour so that His will can be done:
Originally posted by Servant:Hmm, since your reply doesn't really address my question, I'll take it that your answer is yes.
Gosh, I wonder how many Christians out there would be willing to dump their Bibles since what they hold in their hands is twisted or corrupted, according to your really strange theory...
Actually I did answer your question. I said the word of Yahweh is never fake.
Since you need to have it crystal clear, the answer is NO, THE BIBLE IS NOT FAKE, IT IS THE RELIGION OF THE RC CHURCH THAT TWISTS THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE TO CREATE A FALSE god.
I never postulated a theory, I just put forward a statement.
Originally posted by Servant:Not quite, the Lord made it clear in the Bible to worship Him and Him alone as the Israelites tended to stray by making idols of imaginary gods (eg golden calf). He knows we human beings can be so easily distracted, and having an image to focus on can improve our prayer life with Him. In fact, the Lord Himself asked for images to be made in His honour so that His will can be done:
- "Make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num 21: 4-9)
- "In the sanctuary were two cherubim, each ten cubits high, [15 feet high!] made of olive wood..." (1 Kgs 6:23-28, 7:23-26)
- "Make two cherubim of beaten gold at the two ends of mercy seat, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end" (Ex 25:18)
- "The Dwelling itself you shall make out of sheets woven of fine linen twined and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn with cherubim embroidered on them" (Ex 26:1)
a perfect example of twisting the word of G_d.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:wrong, the Tenach and the Brit Chadashah tell the truth, it is the rc church that has not kept the truth of the Tenach and the Brit Chadashah, the word of Yahweh is never fake.
In English, Tenach is spelt Tanakh and Brit Chadashah is part of the convenant between man and god.But since yahweh is fake then the word of yahweh is also false, thus but scriptures are pure nonsense.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Actually I did answer your question. I said the word of Yahweh is never fake.
Since you need to have it crystal clear, the answer is NO, THE BIBLE IS NOT FAKE, IT IS THE RELIGION OF THE RC CHURCH THAT TWISTS THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE TO CREATE A FALSE god.
I never postulated a theory, I just put forward a statement.
Now since you agree that the Bible as the world knows it is indeed the inerrant word of God, how can 'the RC Church twist the truth of the Bible' if its doctrines are actually based on the Bible as I mentioned earlier in http://www.scripturecatholic.com/?
Originally posted by Servant:Now since you agree that the Bible as the world knows it is indeed the inerrant word of God, how can 'the RC Church twist the truth of the Bible' if its doctrines are actually based on the Bible as I mentioned earlier in http://www.scripturecatholic.com/?
The bible is truth, but the doctrines espoused by the rc church are so far away from their original intent in the bible.
Go see if the doctrines do really reflect what the bible says. I mean just picking one point from that site, on the proof of purgatory, the site you mentioned uses this verse as one of the verses for the proof of purgatory it says and I quote:
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
In actuality the verse says this :
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
How does this prove that there is a transitional state of purgatory?
If you read Revelation 21:4 the verse says this...
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
How does this then become this to prove purgatory??:
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
What complete nonsense.
people.
if you believe the bible is true, keep it to yourself.
we don't need to prove anything to those ppl who doubt the existing of the bible/god words.
because the truth is there.
amen.
Originally posted by Shao Wei:people.
if you believe the bible is true, keep it to yourself.
we don't need to prove anything to those ppl who doubt the existing of the bible/god words.
because the truth is there.
amen.
you have just missed the whole point of the discussion.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:The bible is truth, but the doctrines espoused by the rc church are so far away from their original intent in the bible.
Go see if the doctrines do really reflect what the bible says. I mean just picking one point from that site, on the proof of purgatory, the site you mentioned uses this verse as one of the verses for the proof of purgatory it says and I quote:
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
In actuality the verse says this :
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
How does this prove that there is a transitional state of purgatory?
If you read Revelation 21:4 the verse says this...
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
How does this then become this to prove purgatory??:
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
What complete nonsense.
Strange, the 2 quotes that you mentioned seems completely self-explanatory to me, along with the other 16 quotes on the website indicating the existence of purgatory. Just to clarify, purgatory is a step before heaven where believers are cleaned up for the 'wedding banquet' of the Lord in heaven. Not all believers have to go through purgatory (some go straight to heaven), but all souls in purgatory eventually make it to heaven.
Thank God for purgatory. If not, we would not be able to glimpse heaven unless we are spotless and sinless on our deathbed as 'nothing unclean shall enter heaven' (Rev 21:27).
Perhaps if you are willing to open your heart and mind a bit more to the teachings of the Catholic Church rather than simply dismissing them as 'complete nonsense', you may be able to understand why Jesus Christ himself established the Catholic Church 2000 years ago and promised Simon Peter (the first pope) that the 'gates of Hades will not prevail against it' (Matt 16:18).
Originally posted by breytonhartge:nope sorry the rc does not teach what is in the tenach. who are you trying to kid?
It does not keep Shabbat, it does not keep biblically kosher, it does not celebrate the feast of Yahweh, it does not observe the 10 mitzvot that Yahweh has given us to keep, it has introduced pagan festivals into the church and turned man away from Yahweh. Just to name a few.
so do u keep all those u mentioned?
Originally posted by +Sikoyo+:so do u keep all those u mentioned?
what do you think?
Originally posted by breytonhartge:what do you think?
if i knew i wudn't hav to ask, do i?
Originally posted by Servant:Strange, the 2 quotes that you mentioned seems completely self-explanatory to me, along with the other 16 quotes on the website indicating the existence of purgatory. Just to clarify, purgatory is a step before heaven where believers are cleaned up for the 'wedding banquet' of the Lord in heaven. Not all believers have to go through purgatory (some go straight to heaven), but all souls in purgatory eventually make it to heaven.
Thank God for purgatory. If not, we would not be able to glimpse heaven unless we are spotless and sinless on our deathbed as 'nothing unclean shall enter heaven' (Rev 21:27).
Perhaps if you are willing to open your heart and mind a bit more to the teachings of the Catholic Church rather than simply dismissing them as 'complete nonsense', you may be able to understand why Jesus Christ himself established the Catholic Church 2000 years ago and promised Simon Peter (the first pope) that the 'gates of Hades will not prevail against it' (Matt 16:18).
You seem quite blinded to the fact that the two verses that I picked up on did not in ANY WAY mention or even hint in the slightest that there is such a thing as purgatory. The verses DO NOT support the basis for the doctrine of purgatory espoused by the rc churchand yet the rc church "conveniently" uses them to say that purgatory exists. Now this I find odd.
Purgatory is the rc church's version of cheap grace. If there is purgatory, then why is there a need for Mashiach? Why did Yeshua have to die for our sins if we could work it out in purgatory? You might as well not even accept Maschiach because you have a chance in purgatory to work out your salvation. But Yeshua Himself says that salvation is through faith not works. But once you have accepted the faith, the works are expected to follow ie following HIS COMMANDMENTS and HIS WORD.
Do you even know what Yahweh considers unclean?
Perhaps if you are willing to be not so blinded and open your eyes a little more to the true teachings of the bible, you may find that the rc church is teaching just that "complete nonsense"
What Yeshua established so long ago in no way resembles the rc church at all. If you look back into history, all the disciples went to synagogue and not the cc and they all followed the ways of Torah including Kefa (Peter) who did not set up the first cc. Infact Yakov(James) was the leader of all of them not Kefa(Peter).
Originally posted by +Sikoyo+:if i knew i wudn't hav to ask, do i?
and I asked you what you thought so....
Originally posted by breytonhartge:You seem quite blinded to the fact that the two verses that I picked up on did not in ANY WAY mention or even hint in the slightest that there is such a thing as purgatory. The verses DO NOT support the basis for the doctrine of purgatory espoused by the rc churchand yet the rc church "conveniently" uses them to say that purgatory exists. Now this I find odd.
Purgatory is the rc church's version of cheap grace. If there is purgatory, then why is there a need for Mashiach? Why did Yeshua have to die for our sins if we could work it out in purgatory? You might as well not even accept Maschiach because you have a chance in purgatory to work out your salvation. But Yeshua Himself says that salvation is through faith not works. But once you have accepted the faith, the works are expected to follow ie following HIS COMMANDMENTS and HIS WORD.
Do you even know what Yahweh considers unclean?
Perhaps if you are willing to be not so blinded and open your eyes a little more to the true teachings of the bible, you may find that the rc church is teaching just that "complete nonsense"
What Yeshua established so long ago in no way resembles the rc church at all. If you look back into history, all the disciples went to synagogue and not the cc and they all followed the ways of Torah including Kefa (Peter) who did not set up the first cc. Infact Yakov(James) was the leader of all of them not Kefa(Peter).
I think the readers of this thread need some clarification here - are you a Messianic Jew or a Christian, and are you following the Torah or the Bible? It would really be good if you had been more upfront with this right from the start as I am sure I am not the only one who is confused by your postings. And the 2 quotes that you mentioned indirectly rather than explicitly imply the existence of purgatory, as with many other Christian doctrines. So it's your interpretation vs that of the 2000 year old Catholic Church, same old problem isn't it?
Purgatory does not remove sin itself. Jesus did that on the cross. Purgatory removes the effects of sin. An imperfect way to look at it is to think of a nail hammered into a piece of wood. Even if you pulled the nail (sin) out, there would still be a dent in the wood (the person). Purgatory is the process of straightening out the wood (the effect of sin). Certainly Jesus can and does the clean up. He is a merciful God but he is also a just God. The Catholic Church believes, just as you do, that people who rebelliously and persistently refuse to believe that Jesus is Lord and who do not yield to Him don't go to purgatory, but to hell.
On your distinction between faith and works, I think it misses the key message of the Bible. One doesn't override the other as both are equally important. The parables Jesus told in the Bible highlights the importance of extending a helping hand to others as love for all, not just the chosen race.
I have come to realise that your postings conveniently ignore everything that has been mentioned affirming the faith of the Catholic Church, much less consider the truths in other beliefs. I would like to remind you that this discussion sprang from your initial attacks on the Catholic Church which I found offensive, and that my attempts to explain and show the other side of it have been dismissed as 'complete nonsense', 'twisting of the Bible', 'man-made lies' etc. It seems that you do not have a real desire to engage in open discussion and dialogue, but your objective is simply to impose your views on everyone who has taken the time to contribute to this forum. I will continue to pray for the unity of all people - not just Christians - as children of God.
Originally posted by Servant:I think the readers of this thread need some clarification here - are you a Messianic Jew or a Christian, and are you following the Torah or the Bible? It would really be good if you had been more upfront with this right from the start as I am sure I am not the only one who is confused by your postings. And the 2 quotes that you mentioned indirectly rather than explicitly imply the existence of purgatory, as with many other Christian doctrines. So it's your interpretation vs that of the 2000 year old Catholic Church, same old problem isn't it?
Purgatory does not remove sin itself. Jesus did that on the cross. Purgatory removes the effects of sin. An imperfect way to look at it is to think of a nail hammered into a piece of wood. Even if you pulled the nail (sin) out, there would still be a dent in the wood (the person). Purgatory is the process of straightening out the wood (the effect of sin). Certainly Jesus can and does the clean up. He is a merciful God but he is also a just God. The Catholic Church believes, just as you do, that people who rebelliously and persistently refuse to believe that Jesus is Lord and who do not yield to Him don't go to purgatory, but to hell.
On your distinction between faith and works, I think it misses the key message of the Bible. One doesn't override the other as both are equally important. The parables Jesus told in the Bible highlights the importance of extending a helping hand to others as love for all, not just the chosen race.
I have come to realise that your postings conveniently ignore everything that has been mentioned affirming the faith of the Catholic Church, much less consider the truths in other beliefs. I would like to remind you that this discussion sprang from your initial attacks on the Catholic Church which I found offensive, and that my attempts to explain and show the other side of it have been dismissed as 'complete nonsense', 'twisting of the Bible', 'man-made lies' etc. It seems that you do not have a real desire to engage in open discussion and dialogue, but your objective is simply to impose your views on everyone who has taken the time to contribute to this forum. I will continue to pray for the unity of all people - not just Christians - as children of God.
I am a believer.
The two quotes I mention do not in any way no matter how tenuous even remotely suggest that purgatory exists. It is not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of what it says exactly in the bible. The bible says that we are not to add to the word of G_d, but based on that site you sent me to... it seems that the rc church just did. So you go figure.
Is there such a thing as hell? Is there such a thing as going to heaven? Does the bible say we are going to heaven? I do not believe as the rc church does.
Again with my point on faith and works, you miss it entirely. But then, since you seem to know better, pray tell what is the message of the bible?
You still have not given me your definition, which by extrapolation would be the rc's definition of what being unclean means.
Why would I want to delve again into the things that affirm the faith of the rc church?They are not truths as shown in the bible.Your attempts to show these things as truth have been rebutted with my own points that I bring up. I have engaged you in debate, I have engaged you in open discussion, how can this be imposing my views? If like you say this is a discussion, why are you so sensitive? I have just put forward a differing view point to yours. People here can then decide for themselves.