well, lets start with how can we say that Jesus is or is not the same as God the Father. Cos for example, my evidence here would be :
Psalm 33:6 "By the word of Yahweh the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host."
How am i able to say that Yahweh is referring to Jesus? simple.
I'm sure you know, since you have done some active bible study, that each hebrew character has a pictorial significance. For example, Beth has the pictorial of a house, so when they say Beth-Lechem, its literally, House of bread , OR, Beth-el, which is house of God.
In this case, Yahweh is made up of 4 characters Yud-Hei-Vav-Hei..
Yud stands for an open hand or the palm of your hand, Hei is up till today unknown, but some scholars say it is a window, some say it is the picture of grace. ill use the latter. Vav is a picture of the nail or hook.
Put them together and this is what it means : Open hand of grace, nailed in grace ,
which immediately points to Jesus.
If not, then how about this: Jesus has said: I am the alpha and the omega.
Now, Jesus being a jewish man, would not be speaking greek to the disciples.. therefore, if translated, would be : I am the Aleph, and the Tav (�ֵת) Now, if we go back to Genesis chapter 1, we see this in the hebrew.
בְּרֵ�ש�ִית, בָּרָ� �ֱלֹהִי�, �ֵת הַשּ�ָמַיִ�, וְ�ֵת הָ�ָרֶץ.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
right there, is the Aleph and the Tav.
Most of the proof that the trinity is scriptural is found in the hebrew texts , even though the word "trinity " does not appear DIRECTLY, it is mentioned..
Originally posted by Joshen zx:well, lets start with how can we say that Jesus is or is not the same as God the Father. Cos for example, my evidence here would be :
Psalm 33:6 "By the word of Yahweh the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host."
How am i able to say that Yahweh is referring to Jesus? simple.
I'm sure you know, since you have done some active bible study, that each hebrew character has a pictorial significance. For example, Beth has the pictorial of a house, so when they say Beth-Lechem, its literally, House of bread , OR, Beth-el, which is house of God.
In this case, Yahweh is made up of 4 characters Yud-Hei-Vav-Hei..
Yud stands for an open hand or the palm of your hand, Hei is up till today unknown, but some scholars say it is a window, some say it is the picture of grace. ill use the latter. Vav is a picture of the nail or hook.
Put them together and this is what it means : Open hand of grace, nailed in grace ,
which immediately points to Jesus.
If not, then how about this: Jesus has said: I am the alpha and the omega.
Now, Jesus being a jewish man, would not be speaking greek to the disciples.. therefore, if translated, would be : I am the Aleph, and the Tav (�ֵת) Now, if we go back to Genesis chapter 1, we see this in the hebrew.
בְּרֵ�ש�ִית, בָּרָ� �ֱלֹהִי�, �ֵת הַשּ�ָמַיִ�, וְ�ֵת הָ�ָרֶץ.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
right there, is the Aleph and the Tav.
Most of the proof that the trinity is scriptural is found in the hebrew texts , even though the word "trinity " does not appear DIRECTLY, it is mentioned..
would be interesting to see how you derive it...
Meaning how i got those above mentioned or how much more I havent used yet?
Originally posted by Joshen zx:Meaning how i got those above mentioned or how much more I havent used yet?
what you haven't used yet...
Haha.. Cool !
Okay, here we go, its gonna be a bit long..
Lets start with one of the names of God - Elohim
Now, El or Eli is God in the singular. In Hebrew, plurals have a -im suffix... For example, one seraph, many seraphim.. In this way also, God in the singular (Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani , ( עלי )) and God in the plural (Elohim ( �להי� ))....
Next, In Ecclesiastes 12:1 , referring to Young's LITERAL translation,
" Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, 'I have no pleasure in them.' "
If the english is unreliable, then lets look at the tanakh, the hebrew Old Testament.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The hebrew version : בְּרֵ�ש�ִית, בָּרָ� �להי�, �ֵת הַשּ�ָמַיִ�, וְ�ֵת הָ�ָרֶץ Bereshit bara Elohim et (�ֵת) hashamayim ve'et ha'arets.
Oh btw, "et " is the aleph-tav, Jesus, ... i believe till now scholars are still debating the correct pronunciation of the first letter and last letter put together..
Another indisputable one would be found in the Law itself.
The very first commandment, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall you serve.
John 9:37-38 "Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped Him." "
If Jesus allowed the man to worship Him, then He must be "the Lord thy God", otherwise, He would be breaking God's Law, and that cannot happen...
If there is a person here who is good in hebrew might wanna give this a look over, and see if i might have made any mistakes?
looks logical...for now..i wonder what will bro brey say of the hebrew texts since you will be the expert in here..
Yodh Heh Wah Heh..the 4 tetragrammes of the ancient hebrew..the thing is..there were vowels in between the 4 characters..thats why people now most commonly read it as Yahweh..or Jehovah..since the ancient hebrews in their superstition and culture, left only the four..nevertheless..the meaning of God's name is still around albeit we cant pronouce it..He who purpose..that is his meaning...
even without clear quoting of the bible..trinity can already be disprove..we saw it in the old testament that it is the abba father Jehovah who is in the main picture ya..abraham and gang all worshipped him..not once did they worship the HS..nor do they know Jesus..
later in the new testament...Jesus became more active..even saying he is the alpha and the omega which was previously used by Jehovah..now..in Jehovah's context..it will mean he is the first who ever existed...and when all things perish..he will still be around..in Jesus' context..he is the firstborn..only begotten son of Jehovah..thus alpha..omega as he is the last perfect man to die..(adam being first) sources cited in book of revelations.
an example i always love to use is when Jesus was baptized...supposed trinity is true..this will be what it is like..upon Jesus(God) was baptized, the heavens opened..and the HS(God) descended upon God as a dove..not only that..but the booming voice of Jehovah(God) said..this is my son whom i approved of..so now we see that God is being baptized by a sinful man..and God descended upon God while God approve of God calling God the son of God..retty clear and not confusing i guess..
another one was whenever Jesus prayed..he will always subject himself to God..and show that he is the obedient son..the true God will never subject himself or part of himself to anyone else as he is the most high..so here we see God worshipping God..and God subjecting himself to God through God..also when JC was tempted by satan..satan was refuted by Jesus..saying it is Jehovah and him alone should one render sacred services..now if Jesus is indeed God..would not Jesus already tell satan that it is i alone that you should worship?
why Jesus can safely tell people that those who see him has seen God is simple..now people would then say if Jesus is God..then the bible is BS as it is also written that no one shall see God and yet live..contradicting??no...as in an earlier post..Jesus being the first born has spent countless ages with the abba father..he alone is the only dude who can imitate God as closely as possible even Though God is infinite..its just like a very well disciplined child can surely and safely represent his dad to meet other people..and they will say i have seen the father through the son..yes.. Jesus is a mirror image of God..just like how the moon reflect off the sun's light.can we say the moon and the sun is the same?
Elohim can also mean Gods..yes..likewise in the islam religion..when Allah speaks..he also speaks in terms of "us"..some christians used it to prove that even islam support the idea of trinity..but its not..
as a side note...God is all knowing..for he can choose to foresee but not preordain for it will contradict the freewill...now, Jesus told his disciples that even he will not know the day of Jehovah's exact date...also when the mom of 2 of Jesus' disciples asks Jesus to let her son sit on the left and right hand of him, Jesus say he cant do that for only Jehovah can decide that...so much for an almighty God??
I would answer , really want to, but for now i'm gonna be away for at least till tmr.. have a final paper and i gotta start studying ( SUPER LAST MINUTE !! x.X ) hahaha..
I do have enough time to say this though, that Jesus was being really considerate of us modern christians by saying : It is written instead of saying : Hey! How dare you, I am God!
See, if that were the case, then we would have no example to follow as to how to deal with the devil.. if Jesus said " I am God, you are devil, shut up!" where does that leave us? We cant say that we are God.. Thank God that Jesus said : It is written... cos now, if we are confronted by the devil, we have a weapon to use, and that is also : It is written..
Thats why meditation of Gods word and quiet time is important.. waving a bible at the devil wont do a thing, but what hurts him is the words inside..
Ok.. i gtg .. Very nice time posting, but exams first... cya soon... pray for me to not forward module.. T~T
Or, if you are feeling extra nice, pray that i will get a good pass, like a C or B.. got too many D minuses... xD
Originally posted by Joshen zx:I would answer , really want to, but for now i'm gonna be away for at least till tmr.. have a final paper and i gotta start studying ( SUPER LAST MINUTE !! x.X ) hahaha..
I do have enough time to say this though, that Jesus was being really considerate of us modern christians by saying : It is written instead of saying : Hey! How dare you, I am God!
See, if that were the case, then we would have no example to follow as to how to deal with the devil.. if Jesus said " I am God, you are devil, shut up!" where does that leave us? We cant say that we are God.. Thank God that Jesus said : It is written... cos now, if we are confronted by the devil, we have a weapon to use, and that is also : It is written..
Thats why meditation of Gods word and quiet time is important.. waving a bible at the devil wont do a thing, but what hurts him is the words inside..
Ok.. i gtg .. Very nice time posting, but exams first... cya soon... pray for me to not forward module.. T~T
Or, if you are feeling extra nice, pray that i will get a good pass, like a C or B.. got too many D minuses... xD
well..Jesus cannot lie too..just like his dad..and it is written in the scrolls...he said it as a matter of fact thingy...while your reasoning do sounds nice and seems logical..but it is slightly flawed..demons know the bible much better than any of us..the words in it doesnt hurt them..if ever a scene can occur where we talk to the demons face to face and ask them to screw off cuz it is written yada yada yada..seriously, the demon will heck care..
why the bible is a weapon against the demons is simple..when a person reads the bible and decides to baptize and dedicate his/her life to God, that person is acting as a witness to God's right of sovereignty..thus proving satan is wrong..
mediating before,during and after the bible study session is important as one will know the words of God to be true while the words of men are false..
well..if you had studied well, then i believe you had helped yourself enough..so God will help you too..might even get A...
Joshen here.. will be using this acc from now on...
.if ever a scene can occur where we talk to the demons face to face and ask them to screw off cuz it is written yada yada yada..seriously, the demon will heck care..
Ah... guess thats probably why we are taught to spend more time talking to God instead of the devil... Learn from the "girl friends".. best form of resistance is the Cold/Silent Treatment.. haha..
Oh and as for the exams... hehe... Well if i could help myself i wouldnt be asking for it...
In fact, i think the phrase "God helps those who helps themselves " isnt even in the Bible.. think it was Ben Franklin who said that... is he a believer?
Anyway, when i started reading my notes, a miracle seriously happened... the formulas that looked as if it was written in russian suddenly became clear and understandable in a few minutes.. and when i sat for that paper i found it easier than expected... =D
Of course, I understand that thats NOT an excuse to not study for the next semester.. Miracles are exception and not the norm... Norm is to study and then God will help you remember..
Even the farmers have to sow a certain amt of seed to see some harvest... Even if its God who helps it grow...
Originally posted by SPDCP:Joshen here.. will be using this acc from now on...
Ah... guess thats probably why we are taught to spend more time talking to God instead of the devil... Learn from the "girl friends".. best form of resistance is the Cold/Silent Treatment.. haha..
Oh and as for the exams... hehe... Well if i could help myself i wouldnt be asking for it...
In fact, i think the phrase "God helps those who helps themselves " isnt even in the Bible.. think it was Ben Franklin who said that... is he a believer?
Anyway, when i started reading my notes, a miracle seriously happened... the formulas that looked as if it was written in russian suddenly became clear and understandable in a few minutes.. and when i sat for that paper i found it easier than expected... =D
Of course, I understand that thats NOT an excuse to not study for the next semester.. Miracles are exception and not the norm... Norm is to study and then God will help you remember..
Even the farmers have to sow a certain amt of seed to see some harvest... Even if its God who helps it grow...
i only remember vaguely that the idea of God helping people who help themselves was read from the bible..but like i said..vaguely..so i cld be wrong..
yes we are encouraged to talk and develop a personal r/s with God.a pity too many people ended building a r/s with the demons instead while thinking it is God they are talking to. =)
im glad you somehow managed to make out hat the formulas and such meant..but i cant accredict it to either God nor the demons for it might very well be yourself. =)