correct...so it means tat god must 1st come into the picture b4 we can tok abt heaven n hell...hence can i say tat they come as a package in a sense???
but i tink marcteng believes in heaven n hell yet dun believe in god...well, i could be wrong...
Originally posted by despondent:correct...so it means tat god must 1st come into the picture b4 we can tok abt heaven n hell...hence can i say tat they come as a package in a sense???
but i tink marcteng believes in heaven n hell yet dun believe in god...well, i could be wrong...
i don't too
if u dun believe in god, heaven n hell, then its stil ok...the contradiction comes when ppl believe in heaven n hell, yet dun believe in god...
Nah... I think you've completely misconstrued marcteng's stand... He's just putting your religion into perspective, "will he go to hell if he dies if he's a non-believer?"
Originally posted by despondent:correct...so it means tat god must 1st come into the picture b4 we can tok abt heaven n hell...hence can i say tat they come as a package in a sense???
but i tink marcteng believes in heaven n hell yet dun believe in god...well, i could be wrong...
nope, u misunderstood my point
marcteng could be right
i think you guys better define before you actually create the link
Originally posted by despondent:if u dun believe in god, heaven n hell, then its stil ok...the contradiction comes when ppl believe in heaven n hell, yet dun believe in god...
there could be very well no contradiction like what i pointed out
well, wadever it is, it still comes back to my original pt tat unless terms r defined n agreed upon, there wil be unlevel platforms n when tat happens, the apple orange argument becomes inevitable which wil lead to nowhere...
there isnt much of a pt to go down to defining terms n coming to a common agreement cos there r juz too many of them...
so..what u all arguing abt again?
u ask marcteng lor...wads he arguing abt since he supposedly noe we r on diff platforms...
Originally posted by despondent:to s.gal83,
wad u mean there r more than 1 god??? god as in more than one supreme being or more than 1 creator???
One: Belief in one Creator
Okay, for my personal belief, I believe in 1 God. 1 supreme creator of this world. I will call him the creator. I believe this god is the same god as the christian, islam, jewish god. His name is Yahweh, some calls him jehovah.
I believe he makes this world. I believe he is not so holy as he claims himself to be. To be honest, I believe he is evil.
Two: Belief in more than one gods
I believe that angel and man can become like god. That is, they can become like the creator. They may lack certain powers, but they can make up with it by learning.
I believe in lucifer. I believe when he rebels against the creator, he becomes a god. I believe he gains more power as the years go by. I believe this lucifer, is not evil.
I believe good people can become gods, too. They can do so by being especially kind or good. Lucifer becomes God by his pursuit of wisdom. Man can become God by pursuing wisdom, or kindness, or some good traits.
Three: Belief that there is no one true answer
I am struggling with my own belief system as of now. I do not know for sure which religion is true. I had seen Lucifer(Satan) answering my prayers. But I had also seen miracles happening in other religions in this world.
I am leaning more towards not relying on any god. (Not Yahweh, the christian God.) Not even Lucifer, whom I believe, is good. I am leaning more towards believing in myself as a god, or as someone who can be like god.
I do good deeds not because lucifer or Yahweh tells me to, but because I believe doing good deeds is the right thing to do. My current belief is more like, I pray to lucifer for things I cannot do by my own strength.
But I try to be a good person. My religion is my goodness.
One day, I may even stop praying to Lucifer. I am not sure.
I just believe now that God is me. That is, I can be like God. As long as I am moral, I am God. Or at least, like God.
P/S: To be Truly honest. I am struggling in my belief in my own religion. I had seen miracles happening in every religion, including those outside of Satanism and Christianity. I was an ex-christian, and I may become an ex-Satanist. I want to read up on more religions before I decide what I am.
I think the law of non contradiction does apply. Ultimately everything in the universe can only serve One, and that will be the One Above All.
And I think that's the only One you should appeal to, it's only logical.
It's interesting you believe in doing good things is the right thing to do... where does such a notion come from? Is it just a feeling or an instinct? Why do you have to follow it?
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I think the law of non contradiction does apply. Ultimately everything in the universe can only serve One, and that will be the One Above All.
And I think that's the only One you should appeal to, it's only logical.
It's interesting you believe in doing good things is the right thing to do... where does such a notion come from? Is it just a feeling or an instinct? Why do you have to follow it?
I believe people are all born good. Therefore wanting to do good is something like an instinct in mankind.
Interesting thesis, but if being good just an instinct then there is no real compulsion to follow it right?
At the same time we cannot say another person who chooses to follow another instinct as wrong, unless we are saying that certain instincts should be supressed at certain times and others be encouraged. Hence aren't we saying there's some higher law or rule at work that we think should govern our instincts?
If doing good is nothing more then just an instinct, it is as deconstructable as any other aspect of human nature as nothing more then a series of emergent evolutionary solutions to ensure our selfish genes are propagated through the survival of the human race.
We are not bound by it and we can choose to do whatever we want.
Additionally if we are all born good, and it is our instinct to do good... then why do we do evil in the first place if being good was supposed to be so inate? How come a feral child, when left totally with no human influences does not grow up to be the noble savage of so much fiction but instead an animal-like creature with difficulties comprehending any kind of morality at all?
Originally posted by S.gal83:
I believe people are all born good. Therefore wanting to do good is something like an instinct in mankind.
And i belive all mankind are born evil.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
And i belive all mankind are born evil.
if humans were born gd, y is it tat our parents or elders have to keep teaching us to do gd since we were young???
if humans were born gd, y is there a need for moral education in school???
if humans were born gd, y is it tat when a child who comes from a neglected family when the parents r seldom home, usually end up in bad company???
Conclusion: if humans were born gd, we dun need to constantly be taught wad is gd, how to do gd and when to do gd...we shld automatically do gd...
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
There is some truth in that. Hey we finally agree on something. lol.
All men naturally when given power would easily become tyrant.
However those who put their faith in God believe that being good is a noble thing. Even holiness would be rewarded.
If you are asked who you are what would you say?
Are you your wits?
Are you your wealth?
Are you your social status?
Are you your looks?
Are you you your career title?
Are you your guts?
If you are your wits you must remember that it will fail
If you are your wealth, you must remember that wealth will be gone, either they leave you or you leave them
If you are your social status, you must remember that that could change and the dead have none
If you are your looks you must remember that it will fade
If you are your career title there will be time that it is not going to be relevant anymore soon enough
If you believe you have guts, you must remember that it will wane.
So who are you?
Wrong, I do not share your views on inherent sin nor all men are power-hungry. I do believe that you are a christian taliban and seek to impose your worldview on others. There can be no salvation but there can be damnation.
Change is common and anything you gain and have can be lost. You can lose your soul, your mind, your body,your wealth, your everything even this world can be lost, but if you don't strive to change this world for the common good of all which extends beyond god and religion, then one's life is for naught.
if you don't strive to change this world for the common good of all which extends beyond god and religion, then one's life is for naught.
That's interesting... I got some questions, as in serious ones I am not trying to be funny.
What is this common good?
What's so good about it/why is it good?
Why are all men subject to it?
How does this good make our life not for naught?
Why should good be for the common at all?
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:That's interesting... I got some questions, as in serious ones I am not trying to be funny.
What is this common good?
What's so good about it/why is it good?
Why are all men subject to it?
How does this good make our life not for naught?
Why should good be for the common at all?
me too lol. why is there so many illnesses, corruption and injustices in this world. if god is almighty, why not create a world that is full of happiness. why are there babies born with a cleft lip, disability, deformed leg and so on. isnt that unfair for these babies born with these defects. if we humans are indeed god children, then why does the parent allow all these bad things to happen to their children and remained unmoved.
and how is it possible that god create earth in 6 days, seventh day resting. science prove that our earth is at least 6-7 billion years old.
to use god to explain everything is a tad too simple.
No doubt there are serious issues the the fundamentalist Christian narrative of the world... it is too simple and if anything it seem to be anti-faith. Personally, I don't think that's what Christianity is... it's the popular-culture version and image of it, but it's as real as say, Hollywood showing the trope that all cars must explode after they collide with something.
It's easy to be a fundamentalist, all you need to do is to accept a few mantras and dogmas, turn off your mind and be as loud and radical about it as possible. The measure of your "faith" will be the increasingly extreme measures you take for it, even if these actions are foolish, harmful, or even go against the principles of the very faith you believe in.
Unfortunately being loud means that they are the voices that often drown out the narrative of the rest, they are the ones pushing their cardboard-thin idea and image of Christianity into our culture and soceity and I am not surprised when people find holes in that who set up.
Now personally I am not one of those religion ought to be personal and quiet things... if you believe the world is a certain way, and believe it truly... then you ought to be living out that conviction beyond mere convention and facades. I don't think faith should be private and timid ideas we hold in our head, but one of the most radical things a human being can do. But more on that later because we digress.
Back to topic.
The interesting thing is that C.S. Lewis raised a rather good point on how our sense of the unfairness of the world is actually a good indication that we have an innate sense of an appeal to the transcendent.
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it?
A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies.
Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless -I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning.
Interestingly C.S. Lewis, who was an athiest at a point in time, turns the statement on it's head... in his thesis, pure, naturalistic atheism is just too simple a notion to explain everything.
So, one step at a time...
We all have issues with the unfairness of the world.
Where does this sense of unfairness come from?
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:That's interesting... I got some questions, as in serious ones I am not trying to be funny.
What is this common good?
What's so good about it/why is it good?
Why are all men subject to it?
How does this good make our life not for naught?
Why should good be for the common at all?
unfairness? if you are born with a disability at birth, how would you feel?
then there are some who are born in rich family and those who are born poor at birth. these are practical questions in society.
Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Interesting thesis, but if being good just an instinct then there is no real compulsion to follow it right?
At the same time we cannot say another person who chooses to follow another instinct as wrong, unless we are saying that certain instincts should be supressed at certain times and others be encouraged. Hence aren't we saying there's some higher law or rule at work that we think should govern our instincts?
If doing good is nothing more then just an instinct, it is as deconstructable as any other aspect of human nature as nothing more then a series of emergent evolutionary solutions to ensure our selfish genes are propagated through the survival of the human race.
We are not bound by it and we can choose to do whatever we want.
Additionally if we are all born good, and it is our instinct to do good... then why do we do evil in the first place if being good was supposed to be so inate? How come a feral child, when left totally with no human influences does not grow up to be the noble savage of so much fiction but instead an animal-like creature with difficulties comprehending any kind of morality at all?
I am not sure about why people will and can do so much evil. I think it has something to do with the environment and the way they are brought up.
I think people are good because from my memories, even as a child, without being taught by anyone, I had always wanted to be a good person.
In fact, I was so worried about being a bad person that I pray to an "unknown god" to help me be a good person. I admire confucious and other chinese sages who advocate being civil and moral to the people around them.
Being a kindergarten teacher, I notice that the children in my k1 class are pure hearted by nature.
I mean, even though they can be playful at times, they are kind and helpful. One day, one of the more academically weak child is able to name me three out of seven colours. That is an amazing feat for a child who cannot really talk that well. Without me telling them to do so, my class of 14 children clap for their academically weak classmate after he had named me 3 colours. When he gets back to his seat, they hug him and cheer him on like he is a hero.
On another incident, I play a game of catching with the children in my class. The one standing in the end without being caught by me will be the winner of my game. I deliberately set it this way that Those Children Who Hates PE and who are the usual less popular children in class win the game. Children are competitive and want to win the game. However, when they lose, they immediately turn to cheer for their classmates who are still in the game. At the end of the game, the winner of the game is hugged and celebrated like hero by the other children in the class. The other children really feel joyful for their friend who wins, even if their friend is usually the more shy one in class. Children do not display the kind of jealousy adults display.
During class, children often willingly share whatever colour pencils they have with the friends around them.
Observing my own desire to want to be a good person, and observing the behaviours of children in my class, I am convinced that good is something everyone wants to be. And evil is something that is taught. How evil comes about, I have no idea. I think it is something to do with the environment. But good is something everyone prefers to be.
Originally posted by despondent:if humans were born gd, y is it tat our parents or elders have to keep teaching us to do gd since we were young???
if humans were born gd, y is there a need for moral education in school???
if humans were born gd, y is it tat when a child who comes from a neglected family when the parents r seldom home, usually end up in bad company???
Conclusion: if humans were born gd, we dun need to constantly be taught wad is gd, how to do gd and when to do gd...we shld automatically do gd...
Likewise, if humans are evil, why are children, young ones, often so innocent in nature?
Why do they (Young children) love to share with others?
Why are they not jealous of their friend when their friend wins in a game?
Being a kindergarten teacher, I notice that the children in my k1 class are pure hearted by nature.
I mean, even though they can be playful at times, they are kind and helpful. One day, one of the more academically weak child is able to name me three out of seven colours. That is an amazing feat for a child who cannot really talk that well. Without me telling them to do so, my class of 14 children clap for their academically weak classmate after he had named me 3 colours. When he gets back to his seat, they hug him and cheer him on like he is a hero.
On another incident, I play a game of catching with the children in my class. The one standing in the end without being caught by me will be the winner of my game. I deliberately set it this way that Those Children Who Hates PE and who are the usual less popular children in class win the game. Children are competitive and want to win the game. However, when they lose, they immediately turn to cheer for their classmates who are still in the game. At the end of the game, the winner of the game is hugged and celebrated like hero by the other children in the class. The other children really feel joyful for their friend who wins, even if their friend is usually the more shy one in class. Children do not display the kind of jealousy adults display.
During class, children often willingly share whatever colour pencils they have with the friends around them.
Based on my observations of how young children behave, as compared to adults, I will think that good is something that is in all of us, and evil is something that is taught to us.
Originally posted by marcteng:me too lol. why is there so many illnesses, corruption and injustices in this world. if god is almighty, why not create a world that is full of happiness. why are there babies born with a cleft lip, disability, deformed leg and so on. isnt that unfair for these babies born with these defects. if we humans are indeed god children, then why does the parent allow all these bad things to happen to their children and remained unmoved.
and how is it possible that god create earth in 6 days, seventh day resting. science prove that our earth is at least 6-7 billion years old.
to use god to explain everything is a tad too simple.
I agree. And to add to your list of why, here is one more:
Why will God send good people to hell JUST BECAUSE they don't believe in him?
And by good people, I mean people like Buddha, Confucious, chinese sages, gandhi, and other well known people for their good works.
Such a God seems very egoistic to me, and very immoral, too.
He is like, I don't care whether you are good or evil. I let you go to heaven if you bow down and say I am the best. Even very evil people can come to heaven if they say I am the best. And even very good people can all be TORTURED for eternity if they don't believe in me.