Originally posted by SPDCP:First of all, I do not represent NCC in any capacity.. I am simply a student who attends NCC.. All posts here are from my own personal opinion...
You missed the point....someone said that there is this rumour and you said it is not true....yet you really do not know if it is true or unture......the point is, don't say it is not true when you really don't know. A rumour is just that....a rumour.
To me,
I dun trust any churches now
because all just con money one
Once bitten
Twice Shy!
Originally posted by SPDCP:Matthew 25 .....................
Jesus did not just give money, in fact, He gave people a way to get money for themselves. He healed the sick, injured, handicapped, unclean, demonized, the best part.. even the dead.. allowing them to work for their own keep. But then, the question stands, what is God's will?
The critial point in realtion to what I said in MT 25 is really that fact that Jesus said that if you show love to one of your brothers and sisters, you have shown love to God.
"Whoever fails to love does not know God, because God is love." (1Jn 4:8)
I like to quote Paul when he sum it up as that his teaching is all about faith, hope and love and nothing greater than love.
All these missions and visit to homes etc....and giving money are good. The point I want to bring to your attention is such acts are adhoc (although giving money can be on a long term basis - I agreed) basis....and secular organisations and other faith are also doing so....
Where can you visit if no one start, raise funds and run such places in the first place? How about others who are still out there and have no found help? I know many Churches with ministries reaching out within their neighbouhood to seek out those in need and provide them assistance. These are run by church volunteers....i.e. no $$$.
Is it not Jesus's teaching (backed by all his actions) that he is reaching to the poor and needy and helping them?
Did he not ask in the last judgement if we have feed Him when he is hungry? Clothed Him when He is naked, visit Him when He is in prison etc?
Or did he tell us to collecct money and start investing to make more money......make more money for what? To donate a token 10% and mostly more and keep 90% (mostly less) for ourselves?
So the question what is God's will is best answered by yourself. What do you think He want His followers to do? I think He spelt it out clearly in His 2 commandments for His followers.
And His true disciples are those who hear His words and act on it and to live their lives as true Christians and be a light to the world and messengers of Christ. All Christians are told to spread the Gospel and that is to spread God's Love and Charity to His people.
Originally posted by SPDCP:Areas that are zoned for religious purposes are limited to only 30 year terms.. not 99 or 999... also, you are right... One North is NOT a church.. it merely is a place where the church congregates.. and we have already measured the costs.. you dont pump $550 million into a project without first considering all other options...
Is it a fact that there is a capped of 30 years? I know many Churches have existed longer than that.......
And you don;t have to tell me one north is not a church.....I knew it from the begining.
Originally posted by SPDCP:The pastors salaries are decided by the board of renumeration and through specific offerings.. everything is taxed and documented..
Do you mind sharing how (the criteria) board decide on the renumeration?
Originally posted by SPDCP:You are right! Rock is a commercial company.. It was created to make money... If Rock does not make money, then it is a loser company.. Thank God it is making money... As for shareholders... there is only 1 shareholder... NCC... So Rock is seeking monetary returns so that the church is richer... not the pastor..
A "church" setting up a commercial company to make money using funds raised from the church? And there is only 1 shareholder - the "church"? Sounds "scammy" to me....what relationshiop doe it have to what Jesus said when He cleared out everyone telling them that the temple is for doing His Father's business only?
And in your words then, I suppose one north is really for the purpose of making money and spreading gospel take a back-seat.
Originally posted by SPDCP:Of course, the only one who is perfectly right shall be judge over who is right.. and apart from the Holy Spirit, who else can say that they are never wrong? Nobody will know the word of God? What you call the Bible? Like i said earlier, the way the shepherd leads the flock will be reflected in their growth.. if you see many leaders rising up, many sucessful people being grown, many lives getting changed for the better, i'd say that the food there is good... it is a good testimony...
I hope i did not sound too harsh or curt or condescending.. If i did i apologize... looking forward to your comments...
You made a strong implcations saying that "If any other pastor preaches the unadulterated Gospel, I too will support him.." which can be seens as saying churches other than ncc are preaching "adultered Gospel".
Yet, there is no way you can prove your claim that ncc is preaching "unadulterated Gospel".....
The word of God never changes and His commandent remains. It is people whose interpretation corrupt the bible. The bible is really about God's love for us and how we should spread the love.....not some complicated doctrines etc...
Those that preach (imo) "unadulterated Gospel" are those that not just preach about God's love but also take actions to follow His commandments to spread the love and reach out to those in need.
Such actions are only possible when guided by the Holy Spirits and with Christ living in oneself.
If going by what you said above to judge a church, ncc is far too small compared with the main streams churches and far leeser success stories to tell. Many other faith have equally outstanding following and success.....
Originally posted by SPDCP:First of all, I do not represent NCC in any capacity.. I am simply a student who attends NCC.. All posts here are from my own personal opinion... I am not a leader(yet), i only serve as lightsman for the Youth Ministry. All mistakes are my own. NCC does not post on forums, all correspondences should take place in the form of a written letter either to the press, or through a public announcement on the website or during services.. So asking where does NCC stand is not the right question im afraid.. haha.. It should be, where do I stand.. Oh and even though my nick is SPDCP, i also do not represent Singapore Poly Dip. Chem Process as a spokesman... xD
Now, let me try to answer you from the bottom up.. i think its gonna be a really long post...
Matthew 25 verses 1 to 13 is actually prophesying that when Jesus returns, half the Jews will be ready, while the other half will be ready after the tribulation. Why? Because the 10 virgins are not the brides, but the bridesmaids.. The church is referred to as the Bride of Christ, who is according to the custom, already inside waiting for the groom to arrive..
Verses 14 to 30 is about managing God's money. Here, it states that the servants who invested the masters money were praised, while the one who hid it away, was reprimanded for it.. the master also said, even if you did not invest, at the very least, put it in the bank.. Investing is praised, banking it is bare minimum... The One North building is not just a place for us to congregate, but also serves the dual purpose of having invested the Lord's money, all of which will go into the church, and not the pockets of the pastors. They hold the shares only on behalf of the church. They are not allowed to touch any of the money.. All of it is signed in New Creation Church's name, not Pastor Prince..
The pastors salaries are decided by the board of renumeration and through specific offerings.. everything is taxed and documented..
The remaining verses are for Christians to rejoice by.. when they would receive their rewards for taking on His righteousness and not their own... Those who did not depend on their righteousness, were accepted. Those who did, were not..
Jesus did not just give money, in fact, He gave people a way to get money for themselves. He healed the sick, injured, handicapped, unclean, demonized, the best part.. even the dead.. allowing them to work for their own keep. But then, the question stands, what is God's will?
"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" -Hebrews 10:9
Hebrews 10:9 also answers this question... There, it says that the first must first be taken away, so that the second may be established... I may use this analogy: You cannot recontract your mobile line, until the first one is removed. If you do, it is unlawful. God must go by His own rules. If He wants to establish a New Covenant, the Old must first be settled with. And it can only be settled with a payment, that none of us can pay.
Now, i want to address this question :
I wonder why you think that we do not, or are currently not participating in such things? Just this monday, we sent a a team to Thailand on mission. End of October, the Poly Cluster are going to a Home for Children with Cerebral Palsy to heal and to bless them with company. 10% minimum goes out to support various charities and causes. Its not that we are not doing such things, but that we are not broadcasting it to the world to hear.. Why? Its none of the worlds business , thats first.. second, we are not glorifying ourselves... A man who shouts : HEY! I DONATED $100000 compared to the one who gives $100000 in silence, you can see if they desire approval from man or not..
All the tithes immediately go into the Church's bank account, not Ps Princes... Every withdrawal must be documented and taxed where applicable... As for the "many people around the world" argument... they sound just like Judas Iscariot..
"4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages."
What was Jesus answer? in Verse 7: 7"Leave her alone." Likewise I say to those critics, Leave us alone..
Areas that are zoned for religious purposes are limited to only 30 year terms.. not 99 or 999... also, you are right... One North is NOT a church.. it merely is a place where the church congregates.. and we have already measured the costs.. you dont pump $550 million into a project without first considering all other options...
You are right! Rock is a commercial company.. It was created to make money... If Rock does not make money, then it is a loser company.. Thank God it is making money... As for shareholders... there is only 1 shareholder... NCC... So Rock is seeking monetary returns so that the church is richer... not the pastor..
Jesus did teach on tithing... I am sure everyone has read Luke 15.. I hope none has thought that it is all about the same thing.. There is no insignificant detail in the Bible..
In the first parable in luke 15, Jesus talks about the lost sheep. Instantly you can identify the lost sheep to be the church. When Jesus found the church, he left everything else to go save that church...
the second parable, is no longer about the shepherd. it is a woman. The church is also depicted as a woman. A woman who has lost 1 silver coin out of 10... what is 1/10 of the church's money? The tithe! Jesus says, if the church has lost the tithe, she should light a lamp, literally meaning obtain wisdom/revelation, and search the house for the tithe.. and upon finding it, rejoices..
The last one we all know the famous prodigal son, The Father, finding the lost son...
So Jesus did in fact teach about tithing.. in fact, he taught more on money than on prayer.. 16 out of Christ's 38 parables deal with money...
Please.. this is common sense.. if not, then go to any bookstore and ask if the authors decide or the bookstore decides.. Also, to say that "NO" bookstore would put it in the right place is a fallacy.. how many out of 100 have you actually gone to check? i believe all of us have better things to do with our time.. I, for one, have always seen it in its proper place in Borders, Kinokuniya, MPH, Times, and Popular.. at least, the ones that i have been to anyway..
God says that light was created before the Sun. So that means if i nuke the sun into dust, there would still be light.. Anyone can prove it? No? Then are you calling God a liar?
Or
I can say that i was late because i could not find my keys for half an hour... but in actual fact, i was watching TV... no one was at home besides me.. Will you believe me even without proof? simple logic.. mrs xxx can rumor about my magnificent key losing abilities.. but no proof to show that i was actually watching tv..
Of course, the only one who is perfectly right shall be judge over who is right.. and apart from the Holy Spirit, who else can say that they are never wrong? Nobody will know the word of God? What you call the Bible? Like i said earlier, the way the shepherd leads the flock will be reflected in their growth.. if you see many leaders rising up, many sucessful people being grown, many lives getting changed for the better, i'd say that the food there is good... it is a good testimony...
I hope i did not sound too harsh or curt or condescending.. If i did i apologize... looking forward to your comments...
I have no wish to go intyo a debate with you on bible verses especailly those with regards to tithes. There are already threads started on that and too many things have been said. So no point repeating.
I know you are young and perhaps, you should keep an open mind and read around....other denominations teaching, those links I gave you earlier as well as other blogs by priests, pastors and Christians like yourself.
Majority of the mainstream chruches do not teach tithing (and no tithing does not mean no giving) and certainly do not do so like the mega churches do. Jesus has never said we must tithe but give what we can afford like the old lady. And these churches (depite not teaching tithing) has survived much longer and continue to prosper and turning out many successful people.
Hope you do keep an open mind and search for the truth about Christ's teaching.
Originally posted by SPDCP:Please.. this is common sense.. if not, then go to any bookstore and ask if the authors decide or the bookstore decides.. Also, to say that "NO" bookstore would put it in the right place is a fallacy.. how many out of 100 have you actually gone to check? i believe all of us have better things to do with our time.. I, for one, have always seen it in its proper place in Borders, Kinokuniya, MPH, Times, and Popular.. at least, the ones that i have been to anyway..
Hmmm common sense indeed. Imagine if you write a book on dog training and the book store decide it is best to put them in the IT section?
Why would a book written by a "famous pastor" about "his faith" not be found in religious books section (those books store that you have not been to) ?
Thanks for a speedy reply haha.. This time i think I'll answer from the top down...
Originally posted by SPDCP:First of all, I do not represent NCC in any capacity.. I am simply a student who attends NCC.. All posts here are from my own personal opinion...
You missed the point....someone said that there is this rumour and you said it is not true....yet you really do not know if it is true or unture......the point is, don't say it is not true when you really don't know. A rumour is just that....a rumour.
Eh, that was actually a disclaimer i decided to put infront before i got started.. not related to the topic at all.. i didnt want people to go around thinking that a staff of NCC said "this and this", when in reality all errors are mine...
Now,... LETS BEGIN! =D
The critial point in realtion to what I said in MT 25 is really that fact that Jesus said that if you show love to one of your brothers and sisters, you have shown love to God.
"Whoever fails to love does not know God, because God is love." (1Jn 4:8)
I like to quote Paul when he sum it up as that his teaching is all about faith, hope and love and nothing greater than love.
All these missions and visit to homes etc....and giving money are good. The point I want to bring to your attention is such acts are adhoc (although giving money can be on a long term basis - I agreed) basis....and secular organisations and other faith are also doing so....
Where can you visit if no one start, raise funds and run such places in the first place? How about others who are still out there and have no found help? I know many Churches with ministries reaching out within their neighbouhood to seek out those in need and provide them assistance. These are run by church volunteers....i.e. no $$$.
Is it not Jesus's teaching (backed by all his actions) that he is reaching to the poor and needy and helping them?
Did he not ask in the last judgement if we have feed Him when he is hungry? Clothed Him when He is naked, visit Him when He is in prison etc?
Now, I agree with you wholly.. Its just that, like i said before, we are doing those things.. We always have been doing those things and we have no plans to stop. I applaud ministers who are able to reach out without the use of money, most of our reaching out also does not involve too much money if possible.. But its times when you want to reach out, but have no money to do it..
For example,Ms XXX needs an urgent surgery... what good will sending volunteers who can only watch and have no ability to help?
Ms XXX: Help me!
Volunteer: We love you!
Ms XXX : help me!!
Volunteer: God Loves you!
Ms XXX: just go home... you cant do anything..
To provide aid to other countries.. you definitely need money to send the supplies overseas.. you need to take caution of corrupt officials.. you need to bypass certain laws in order to send aid to some minorities.. especially ones that the governement dont like...
Is it not Jesus's teaching (backed by all his actions) that he is reaching to the poor and needy and helping them?
Did he not ask in the last judgement if we have feed Him when he is hungry? Clothed Him when He is naked, visit Him when He is in prison etc?
Like i mentioned, you need money to buy food and clothing.. Look, i understand that you are for reaching out, so am I, therefore we are on the same page =) Different groups have different methods, some controvesial, some traditional.. what matters is help is going out to those who need it..
Or did he tell us to collecct money and start investing to make more money......make more money for what?
He did teach both... we cannot take one and ignore the other.. I have already elaborated on how He taught on the subject...
Is it a fact that there is a capped of 30 years? I know many Churches have existed longer than that.......
Do you mind sharing how (the criteria) board decide on the renumeration?
A "church" setting up a commercial company to make money using funds raised from the church? And there is only 1 shareholder - the "church"? Sounds "scammy" to me....what relationshiop doe it have to what Jesus said when He cleared out everyone telling them that the temple is for doing His Father's business only?
And in your words then, I suppose one north is really for the purpose of making money and spreading gospel take a back-seat.
The people Jesus cleared out were using the temple and making money for themselves.. NCC is making money for the church... NONE of the members including Ps Prince gets a cut from the profits...
One North is not for spreading the Gospel.. NCC is... it happens that NCC is housed in One North.. simple as that.. its as good as saying, Plaza Sing is not for musical education, but the Yamaha inside Plaza Sing is... Am i right?
You made a strong implcations saying that "If any other pastor preaches the unadulterated Gospel, I too will support him.." which can be seens as saying churches other than ncc are preaching "adultered Gospel".
Nope... i am not saying that NCC is the only one.. if it appears that way, I apologize and retract that statement.. there are many many good good churches around who preach the Love of Christ, for example, Ps Judah Smith from Seattle,WA, Brian Houston from Hillsongs, Rev Col. Stringer, and many many others that cannot be named cos there are too many... the people i know may differ completely from the people you know..
Those that preach (imo) "unadulterated Gospel" are those that not just preach about God's love but also take actions to follow His commandments to spread the love and reach out to those in need.
If going by what you said above to judge a church, ncc is far too small compared with the main streams churches and far leeser success stories to tell. Many other faith have equally outstanding following and success.....
Jesus has never said we must tithe but give what we can afford like the old lady.
Have you ever wondered, why newspapers report that Bill Gates donating $100k to africa, yet no one makes any hoo ha about a man donating $200 out of his $400 account balance to Mendaki...
If we looked at percentages, Bill Gates donated around 0.000000163% of his wealth..
Why would a book written by a "famous pastor" about "his faith" not be found in religious books section (those books store that you have not been to) ?
thats all so far... looking forward to your comments! =)
Originally posted by SPDCP:Eh, that was actually a disclaimer i decided to put infront before i got started.. not related to the topic at all.. i didnt want people to go around thinking that a staff of NCC said "this and this", when in reality all errors are mine...
...............................................
Nope... i am not saying that NCC is the only one.. if it appears that way, I apologize and retract that statement.. there are many many good good churches around who preach the Love of Christ, for example, Ps Judah Smith from Seattle,WA, Brian Houston from Hillsongs, Rev Col. Stringer, and many many others that cannot be named cos there are too many... the people i know may differ completely from the people you know..
You still did not get my point....i.e. don't say it is not true when in fact you don't even know......nothing to do with disclaimer etc...that's one of the 2 reasons I repsond.
Second reason is about ""unadulterated Gospel" which you retracted but the fact remained that you have no way to know which is ""unadulterated Gospel" and ncc might just be the "adulterated" one - who knows......
But as you agreed with my views on which is "unadulterated Gospel" and claimed that ncc is doing so, I am happy. I am sure that ncc preached that but do they do it? That's where my doubts lies....
Originally posted by SPDCP:Now, I agree with you wholly.. Its just that, like i said before, we are doing those things.. We always have been doing those things and we have no plans to stop. I applaud ministers who are able to reach out without the use of money, most of our reaching out also does not involve too much money if possible.. But its times when you want to reach out, but have no money to do it..
For example,Ms XXX needs an urgent surgery... what good will sending volunteers who can only watch and have no ability to help?
Ms XXX: Help me!
Volunteer: We love you!
Ms XXX : help me!!
Volunteer: God Loves you!
Ms XXX: just go home... you cant do anything..
To provide aid to other countries.. you definitely need money to send the supplies overseas.. you need to take caution of corrupt officials.. you need to bypass certain laws in order to send aid to some minorities.. especially ones that the governement dont like...
Like i mentioned, you need money to buy food and clothing.. Look, i understand that you are for reaching out, so am I, therefore we are on the same page =) Different groups have different methods, some controvesial, some traditional.. what matters is help is going out to those who need it..
He did teach both... we cannot take one and ignore the other.. I have already elaborated on how He taught on the subject...
Actually, I failed to see what has been done ......cause what is done is bare minimal imo as I mentioned, many others do that.
I have not heard or know that ncc is providing shelters, homes or anything to help those who need them....
For Ms XXX in your example, if people from my Church knows about it, she will have a surgery regardless if she has money cause there are hospitals we run that we can help. There are funds we set aside to help such people and we can always raise funds within the Church to help her.....
The good of sending volunteer is to seek out such people and provide the necessary help that we can NOT WAIT FOR HER TO COME ........if we can't, we can still direct them to place which can help them...if there's a will, there's a way.
And no, we don't tell Ms XXX that God loves her......we proved it to her by what we do for her.
If Ms XXX end up with ncc, then die liao........she will be asked, you got money to pay tithe? If got, pay and wait for return.....if not, sorry, we cannot help cause need to use our money to make more money.....so the church grow richer and richer (but not the pastor hor...) and let the money rot like what Jesus said in MT6:19 "where moth and woodworm destroy them and thieves can break in and steal"
Is that what you intend to tell me when you say what's the point of sending volunteer?
Of course money is needed and since when did I said it was not?
I know you are trying to tell me that ncc do help....I never said that they do not.
It is what the church does wholeheartedly that matters and not say "see we got do what!!".....
The point is, the focus of the Church should be soley to preach and do what Jesus teaches us as you have agreed - Love and Charity. Not making money.....
So many churches do not set up company to make money (because that's not the role of a church) and no teaching of tithes....yet they continue to exist, prosper and are able to build schools, shelters, home, hospice and run them for many years....
That's God's grace and providence cause they do God's will of spreading love and charity.
Only worry about survival when you don't ahve faith in God's promise like what Jesus said in MT6:19-34.
And sorry, Jesus do not teach both - certainly never asking His church and followers to colelcct tithes and invest to make more money....and more money for what?
Like I said earlier, no point in debating what the verses means as all warp version of preaching is "supported by the bible" because of twisted interpretation. This again lead me to ask, if you are sick, will you go to a qualified and trained doctor? For me personally, I will not put my eteranl life issue at stake by following untrained pastors....just my personal opinion.
Originally posted by SPDCP:There is a cap for building of that size.. Singapore does not have the luxury of land to lease you a building for 22000 people for religious purposes only.. moving to smaller location would mean needing multiple buildings... and that is gonna cost more.. renting expo is also more expensive.. I'll probably concede that the world probably wont last longer than the next 30 years, but lol... i dont feel like i need to carry on..
You keep mentioning there is a cap but are you sure? Cause now you put in another citeria of size....
Many other churches have a much bigger congregation that ncc and how you think they cope with that?
I don't think that there is a need for a place to house everyone at 1 go.....service can be held at different time slots.....
Having multiple building means reaching out to people of different areas, making it easier for people to attend services, having a building in an areas to cater to people living in that vicinity....administering help to the needy and spreading God's love at the same time.....it is not that bad an idea...
Yes, then the church will be poorer perhaps, but so what?
Important thing is God's will is not seen to be done but id done because it is in everyone's heart to reach out and help.
Who cares how long more the world will last? Who even care how long more we are going to live on this earth? But when we are here and since we professed to eb followers of Christ, we shall do His will to our best ability.
Originally posted by SPDCP:Honestly, I have no idea... i'll take a rain check and let you know when i begin work full-time in church.. in about ... 8 to 10 years.. lol..
I think nobody outside the board knows.....why? Think....
Pastor must drive big car?
Pastor wife must own LV?
Pastor must wear Boss?
Pastor must stay in orchard road?
Originally posted by SPDCP:The people Jesus cleared out were using the temple and making money for themselves.. NCC is making money for the church... NONE of the members including Ps Prince gets a cut from the profits...
One North is not for spreading the Gospel.. NCC is... it happens that NCC is housed in One North.. simple as that.. its as good as saying, Plaza Sing is not for musical education, but the Yamaha inside Plaza Sing is... Am i right?
................................................................Amen, we are still currently too small... The minute we get complacent and say "We are there!" is the day we fall from grace..
You missed the point again.....He clearly said that the place is to do His Father's business only......
Secondly, why would the church (already so rich) need to make more money....and when is it going to be enough since you cannot allow to get complacen? Smell like greed here.......
One north is not a church but used as a place for worship but owned by a company whose shareholder is a church. Why? Like I said sound scammy....
Plaza Singapoura is not for music education and they never raised funds to build it calling it a "music school building fund" or something like that....
And the fact that ncc is still small (as you said) means maybe, they are not really preaching "unadulterated Gospel" ? (I am just using your yardstick to measure)
Actually, I failed to see what has been done ......cause what is done is bare minimal imo as I mentioned, many others do that.
I have not heard or know that ncc is providing shelters, homes or anything to help those who need them....
Still, since it IS being done, you cant say that we dont do what we preach... And just because you dont hear of it, doesnt mean it isnt done...
the reason we dont directly build a shelter or a home is because there are already many such institutions in place... All we need to do is channel resources to those existing charities... Like the BB Sharity Gift Box Donations Drive, the myanmar relief fund, the tsunami and earthquake funds, etc etc...
For Ms XXX in your example, if people from my Church knows about it, she will have a surgery regardless if she has money cause there are hospitals we run that we can help. There are funds we set aside to help such people and we can always raise funds within the Church to help her...
Thats what we are doing! one of the differences is that since there ARE hospitals already in operation and are adequately equipped for the job, we just provide the financial aid..
The good of sending volunteer is to seek out such people and provide the necessary help that we can NOT WAIT FOR HER TO COME ........if we can't, we can still direct them to place which can help them...if there's a will, there's a way.
We are in modern times... all it takes is a simple phone call and consider it done..
If they are truly in need of aid, they wont fear coming to the church for help because we have given testimonies of people receiving aid...
f Ms XXX end up with ncc, then die liao........she will be asked, you got money to pay tithe? If got, pay and wait for return.....if not, sorry, we cannot help cause need to use our money to make more money...
That is a terrible lie, dont ever believe it if someone tells you that... We have always said, only tithe if you have a revelation.. no revelation, dont tithe.. If this is not your church, dont tithe to us... if you are not employed, dont tithe... if you dont want to tithe, dont tithe..
we do NOT check individual tithing records apart from several occasions,since it is between you and God... those special occasions are 1) you are being considered for leadership, we have no desire for leaders who are God-robbers.. and 2) if you are to be given voting privileges since if your gonna help in making a major decision, some indication that you are a regular member is required...
If you dont want to be in the church records, a simple letter will suffice, if not, then drop in the envelope without your i/c number..
and let the money rot like what Jesus said in MT6:19 "where moth and woodworm destroy them and thieves can break in and steal"
Again, let us look at the verse in its context... the verses that follow are: 20 Store your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be.
Now, our heart is for the people, and for the things of God. Otherwise we would not be preaching Faith, Hope and Love week after week... In any case, this verse was more a personal instruction. If a man is willing to honor God with his tithe, then money does not have a hold on him, and his heart is for God. A man who keeps every cent for himself is evidently storing up treasure for himself..
Is that what you intend to tell me when you say what's the point of sending volunteer?
Of course money is needed and since when did I said it was not?
I know you are trying to tell me that ncc do help....I never said that they do not. It is what the church does wholeheartedly that matters and not say "see we got do what!!"
Exactly... the problem is, sometimes, we have instances of : "I have not heard or know that ncc is providing shelters, homes or anything to help those who need them...."
We have never publicly announced to the world what we are doing for others, everything is announced to the church members only during services....
So many churches do not set up company to make money (because that's not the role of a church) and no teaching of tithes....yet they continue to exist, prosper and are able to build schools, shelters, home, hospice and run them for many years....
That's God's grace and providence cause they do God's will of spreading love and charity.
Only worry about survival when you don't have faith in God's promise like what Jesus said in MT6:19-34.
can you list a few examples? Google doesnt turn up anything... lol..
if you are sick, will you go to a qualified and trained doctor? For me personally, I will not put my eternal life issue at stake by following untrained pastors....just my personal opinion.
Neither will I... However, ever since I have followed this pastor( i'm not saying he's the only good one... there are many good ones like i said..) I have experienced a change in my life for the better. There are results to show. I am not boasting or putting a feather on my cap, but if i were to compare my non christian days with who i am now, I'd say God is doing a wonderful job through Ps Prince...still doing, not complete yet haha.. i still have some areas that need polishing...
You keep mentioning there is a cap but are you sure? Cause now you put in another citeria of size....
Many other churches have a much bigger congregation than ncc and how you think they cope with that?
Er... NCC is the 2nd largest in SG...only CHC is bigger.. everyone else is at least half or less.. so their problems are on a different scale, also they have more viable options..
don't think that there is a need for a place to house everyone at 1 go.....service can be held at different time slots.....
there is no feasible solution available to house everyone... currently even with Singapore Indoor Stadium, we had to turn away 200 people due to space shortage at the last Combined Christmas Service...
We now have 4 services while occupying Rock Audi, Gallery West, 2 Overflow rooms...
So it is definite that we will still have multiple services even after moving to Rock@One-North.. we have a current attendance of 20000++... I assure you, there is a need..
I think nobody outside the board knows.....why? Think...
For exactly the same reasons Takashimaya does not let other people know their pay systems.. it is simply good/common practice.. However, it is perfectly fine to email the church to request a look at how they make such decisions.. Go ahead and let me know what they say...
Gonna take a short break for now, lets look at this one from noahnoah :
Pastor must drive big car?
Pastor wife must own LV?
Pastor must wear Boss?
Pastor must stay in orchard road?
Correct me if i'm mistaken, but i think this is a case of sour grapes.. Same way, i fire back the question at you :
Pastor must walk/take bus everywhere?
Pastor wife must not own LV?
Pastor must wear not Boss?
Pastor must not stay in orchard road or maybe, cannot even own house?
For the record, Ps Prince stays in the west zone.. not in Orchard..
Now, now that has been settled with, lets continue:
He clearly said that the place is to do His Father's business only......
Is not the Father's business the church? If not, then why would He send Jesus to us?
Secondly, why would the church (already so rich) need to make more money....and when is it going to be enough since you cannot allow to get complacen? Smell like greed here......
We dont NEED to make more money, rather, we just want to be good stewards of it... and investing it is the proper duty of a steward, as mentioned in Jesus's Parable of the talents of gold... It has already exceeded our expectations many times over... we passed the enough mark long ago... now, we are doing it to see God's promises come true, the ones where He says " Test me now in this, and see if I will not bless you so much as there will not be enough room to hold it!" ... as a testimony to others
One north is not a church but used as a place for worship but owned by a company whose shareholder is a church. Why? Like I said sound scamm
One north is not solely used for worship.. In fact, Rock Productions rents out the Audi to NCC, and on days where NCC is not using it, it is free for everyone else..
On a personal opinion, i think the thing we did was to use a loophole in the law to allow us to get a building of our own that meets our need..
NCC has to pay Rock for using the Audi. Rock must pay taxes on rent received. Although Rock is owned by NCC, Rock cannot just transfer the money back to NCC as and when it feels like, since they are still seperate entities...
I think somewhere along the line you have thought i'm missing the point again but i'm just expaining the way these things work.. if you know more than me, teach me.. Although business law is really one of the hardest to explain... trying not to get confused myself..
Plaza Singapoura is not for music education and they never raised funds to build it calling it a "music school building fund" or something like that....
We have also repeated time and again that One North is not a place of worship.. it is a civic and cultural zone with retail options.. and we do not raise funds by claiming what it is not.. the people just gave even when we announced the truth publicly...
And the fact that ncc is still small (as you said) means maybe, they are not really preaching "unadulterated Gospel" ? (I am just using your yardstick to measure)
We may still be small, but we will not remain small.. like i said, we are still growing.. and we will grow..
I have enjoyed this extensive discussion very much... the interesting posts here have given me a great opportunity to crack open my bible and read where i normally might have missed.. thanks alots... haha.. But i think we got alot of points covered already to make a rather thick FAQ... I do intend to wrap it up in the next 3 to 4 posts if possible.. I've said my hearts content and have been blessed.
Originally posted by SPDCP:Still, since it IS being done, you cant say that we dont do what we preach... And just because you dont hear of it, doesnt mean it isnt done...
the reason we dont directly build a shelter or a home is because there are already many such institutions in place... All we need to do is channel resources to those existing charities... Like the BB Sharity Gift Box Donations Drive, the myanmar relief fund, the tsunami and earthquake funds, etc etc...
Thats what we are doing! one of the differences is that since there ARE hospitals already in operation and are adequately equipped for the job, we just provide the financial aid..
..............................................
We are in modern times... all it takes is a simple phone call and consider it done..
If they are truly in need of aid, they wont fear coming to the church for help because we have given testimonies of people receiving aid...
Exactly... the problem is, sometimes, we have instances of : "I have not heard or know that ncc is providing shelters, homes or anything to help those who need them...."
We have never publicly announced to the world what we are doing for others, everything is announced to the church members only during services....
Exactly like I said earlier, "since it IS being done, you cant say that we dont do what we preach".......just do the mininal and that's it. Let's make making money our piority.....
As a Church, doing God's will should be the first piority and the lame excuses we have heard many times is that : "there are already many such institutions in place... All we need to do is channel resources to those existing charities..."
Why? Because there is no money to be made from doing so....
And since there are already so many churches, why even bother to start another? Why not preach in the church the pastor come from or join one?
And which hosital does ncc provide financial aid to?
Sometimes, we get carried away and think that in modern times, every thing is a phone call away or an e-mail away........ Even in a affluent society like Singapore, go round and checck yourself and you will see people who live with no water and electricity and even in the park! How to call ncc or take a bus to suntec?
Read the papers or ask your MP and you know many people simply do not know where to turn to to seek help......Wake up!
Jesus did not sit in one place waiting for people to come to Him......He reach out to them....
I don't think any churches have been actively telling the world what they do....they too, only tell their congregation what they are doing and motivating more people to join the various ministries and contribute towards helping others...
Certainly, I have even heard from ncc goers that they get award from President Nathan for giving money to charities....so much for trying to tell me ncc is humble.....for the "little" that they have done, they are sure proud of it.
Originally posted by SPDCP:That is a terrible lie, dont ever believe it if someone tells you that... We have always said, only tithe if you have a revelation.. no revelation, dont tithe.. If this is not your church, dont tithe to us... if you are not employed, dont tithe... if you dont want to tithe, dont tithe..
we do NOT check individual tithing records apart from several occasions,since it is between you and God... those special occasions are 1) you are being considered for leadership, we have no desire for leaders who are God-robbers.. and 2) if you are to be given voting privileges since if your gonna help in making a major decision, some indication that you are a regular member is required...
If you dont want to be in the church records, a simple letter will suffice, if not, then drop in the envelope without your i/c number..
Again, let us look at the verse in its context... the verses that follow are: 20 Store your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be.
It is equally a terrible lie that you try to paint with a volunteer reaching out to the needy because you try to justify why ncc is not doing it.
Like I said before, tithing is not taught by Jesus and many main stream churches do not teach them. Certainly, only prosperity gospel preaching mega churches do so and rasied many eyebrows cause they way the money is spend. Don't think that mega churches is super rich cause there are churches that are richer despite no tithing being taught ......you find that out yourself....yet they do not create the same hooha because of the way the funds are used.
My understaning is JP preached only 4 times about tithing in the past years. IMO, that's 4 times too much. I also know that it is at cg level that this is preached (cause I have friend in ncc who are asking me to go) and to come and think of it, tithing (the way being taught at mega churches) is like buying 4D or toto......someone will win big but most remained poor....the one who got rich? God blessings....the one who won nothing, have faith and continue to buy.....your day may just come. At the end, it is the company running it that is assured of winning and thus can pay staff well.......Sure, they also organised trips to visit the less fortunate and give to charity.....
So why bother in wanting more and more riches when you don't even know why there is a need for it......
Originally posted by SPDCP:Neither will I... However, ever since I have followed this pastor( i'm not saying he's the only good one... there are many good ones like i said..) I have experienced a change in my life for the better. There are results to show. I am not boasting or putting a feather on my cap, but if i were to compare my non christian days with who i am now, I'd say God is doing a wonderful job through Ps Prince...still doing, not complete yet haha.. i still have some areas that need polishing...
Ha...you said "Neither will I" yet can you tell me where is JP trained ?
People from many other faith experienced the same thing as you do in ncc so I don't see any difference......
In actual fact, though you said you will not, you have already been "blinded". It is like you will consult any one who can tell you something they read from medial journal......to your liking even if you know (or not sure) if he is trained doctor.
Originally posted by SPDCP:Er... NCC is the 2nd largest in SG...only CHC is bigger.. everyone else is at least half or less.. so their problems are on a different scale, also they have more viable options..
there is no feasible solution available to house everyone... currently even with Singapore Indoor Stadium, we had to turn away 200 people due to space shortage at the last Combined Christmas Service...
We now have 4 services while occupying Rock Audi, Gallery West, 2 Overflow rooms...
So it is definite that we will still have multiple services even after moving to Rock@One-North.. we have a current attendance of 20000++... I assure you, there is a need..
Hmmm...now it seems like you take away the consideration 0f 30 years cap........and I take it you don't know it as a fact.
By the way, I dont think chc is the largest......and if you read the other threads, you will read that Catholics is the largest with more than 300,000 and many more demoninations have more than 20,000 people.
Yet, they don't need to build something like one north......and the same goes for the other faith....like the Muslims for example.
So, again another lame excuse....
And what about considering the advantages of many churches building scattered around the island to help everyone that I mentioned earlier? Not just Christian Churches do that, other faith too.....maybe because making money is not their main agenda? Perhaps...
Originally posted by SPDCP:For exactly the same reasons Takashimaya does not let other people know their pay systems.. it is simply good/common practice.. However, it is perfectly fine to email the church to request a look at how they make such decisions.. Go ahead and let me know what they say...
You should not put a secular profit making company as comparison with a church. Again, I am not sure if Taka is listed on the stock exchange here (maybe in Japan) and you may like to know listed company do reveal their top men salaries and bonuse.
Maybe, ncc can learn from the government with regards to that. There are some valid points that noahnoah which is worth considering......does a pastor need a conti car and semi-d? I believed that the apostles do not and in fact preached living simply......
I have no problems with pastor getting paid...in fact well paid. But how much is well paid? I believe most churches do pay their pastor well.....enough for them to ensure that their family live well.....not luxury..... Maybe using average Singaporean household as a guide is better in this sense...imo.
Like I said....think.......why they do not reveal to the congregation on how the borad decide to pay?
It is strange that you have no desire to know how it is done ? Why not you as an ncc member asked and then show the reply to us?
Originally posted by SPDCP:Is not the Father's business the church? If not, then why would He send Jesus to us?
We dont NEED to make more money, rather, we just want to be good stewards of it... and investing it is the proper duty of a steward, as mentioned in Jesus's Parable of the talents of gold... It has already exceeded our expectations many times over... we passed the enough mark long ago... now, we are doing it to see God's promises come true, the ones where He says " Test me now in this, and see if I will not bless you so much as there will not be enough room to hold it!" ... as a testimony to others
One north is not solely used for worship.. In fact, Rock Productions rents out the Audi to NCC, and on days where NCC is not using it, it is free for everyone else..
On a personal opinion, i think the thing we did was to use a loophole in the law to allow us to get a building of our own that meets our need..
NCC has to pay Rock for using the Audi. Rock must pay taxes on rent received. Although Rock is owned by NCC, Rock cannot just transfer the money back to NCC as and when it feels like, since they are still seperate entities...
I think somewhere along the line you have thought i'm missing the point again but i'm just expaining the way these things work.. if you know more than me, teach me.. Although business law is really one of the hardest to explain... trying not to get confused myself..
We have also repeated time and again that One North is not a place of worship.. it is a civic and cultural zone with retail options.. and we do not raise funds by claiming what it is not.. the people just gave even when we announced the truth publicly...
I am not sure but it seems like you hit jackpot when you think that ncc is "use a loophole in the law" I leave it up to you to think and decide if that's a right thing to do.
(that's the point about one-north and rock.....not if that's a church...it's not and that's a fact we all know).
Another point, loop hole to do what? I know you argue about the necessity of a place but in earlier parts, I think I have shown you why this may not be necessary the best solution (if we take away making money consideration) and perhaps, other ways are much better in terms of serving the people of God.....IMO, it is soley making money that was the concern.....
Does that have anything to do when the board sits to decide on pay issues?
God send Jesus to save us.....not make money! And the business of the Church is to spread the Good News and not make money!
I have already explained imo the best way to be the light and messenger of Christ (which I think you agreed....if I do not mistaken). And the Church that preach the true gospel should do just that.
Originally posted by SPDCP:We may still be small, but we will not remain small.. like i said, we are still growing.. and we will grow..
As I said, I was just using your yardstick to measure ncc and it does not seems good.....
So you can't say for sure that ncc preached "unadulterated Gospel" then....especially if you are not sure if JP has proper training......
Like I said in the earlier part, the way to know if true gospels are preached is not just what is being preached....but also what is being done. And done in accordance to the teaching of our saviour Jesus Christ.....
You said:
"Now, our heart is for the people, and for the things of God. Otherwise we would not be preaching Faith, Hope and Love week after week... In any case, this verse was more a personal instruction. If a man is willing to honor God with his tithe, then money does not have a hold on him, and his heart is for God. A man who keeps every cent for himself is evidently storing up treasure for himself.."
and that's exactly why Churches went out to help and not keep 90% for themselves and make more money....and more money for what?....and even though it already exceed their target many times......and when is it going to stop? Greed has no ending.....perhaps.
No thithing does not mean not giving (as I said before) and 10% tithing is not necessary......and it should not be taught as God's way to "return" to you and prosper you cause God enrich everyone and prosper everyone in His own way and standard.
Originally posted by SPDCP:can you list a few examples? Google doesnt turn up anything... lol..
What examples? Church that does not set up commercial companies? Maybe you can name those that does other than ncc or chc....and you can look through the website of the main stream churches....