http://www.secret-rapture.com/
Only read if you are interested as it is a wee bit long.
Well if I were you I would read about the argument being brought against rapture and if you find other interpretation which you disagree on well ... but the man brought the case against rapture well enough to be worth reading. . . . if you are interested.
A source from wiki about the tribulation period:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulation
Cautionary note before reading:
Of course as a Christian we each have the obligation to read the bible ourselves so not to let anyone fool us into believing man made lies. Digest what you need. READ THE BIBLE.
I intend to write some of the things I've learned from the bible some time in the future. Perhaps including rapture argument. I know i'm nobody but still I just would like to share some interesting points I've found 'buried' in the bible. Still I don't claim to know everything and the truth that I may know now is just a little fraction of the wider picture. You could be right yet I could be right as well though we may differ and we all could be a little wrong. That's why we need each other to correct one another.
If you found any interesting link on rapture and the revelation please share them with me and us.
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Is there really a Secret Rapture with a second chance of salvation? Regardless of the topic when it is associated with salvation, Satan has deceptions in every area in an attempt to steal as many people as possible from God’s kingdom. It is a grave error to underestimate the enemy. It does not matter how many people believe a lie, it will never make it truth. Mark Twain once said, “A lie can travel halfway around the world, while truth puts on its shoes.” The only way to avoid the enemy’s deception and find truth is to study the scriptures diligently. Multitudes of people have been exposed to this “dispensationalist” or “futurist” interpretation of prophecy and have been utterly confused. So what is the real truth about this so-called secret rapture?
According to those teaching the secret rapture theory, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate stages. The first will be a secret rapture of the Church at the beginning of a seven year tribulation period followed by a glorious, triumphant return of Christ to the Earth accompanied by the Church at the end of the seven year period. They believe that during this seven year period the Antichrist is going to come into power and God will select and seal 144,000 literal Jews who will take the Gospel to the whole world converting immeasurable souls to Christ. They also believe the battle of Armageddon is a literal national war against literal Israel, which occurs near the end of the seven years and is brought to a halt by Christ’s return with His Church. Then literal Israel accepts the Lord as the Messiah and enters with Him as His covenant people into the 1,000 year (millennial) reign on earth known as the Kingdom Age. Christ will rule directly over the earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem, where the typical temple services function again. Those who ultimately reject Christ’s rule are eventually judged and destroyed at the end of the Millennium. The new believers will then receive immortality and eternity will begin.
However, the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings and the word “rapture” is also an invention of theologians and occurs nowhere in the Bible. The deception does not stop there, Christians also debate whether we will be taken before the tribulation or in the middle of the seven years or at the completion of the seven year tribulation. These are called pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation and post tribulation. Now for the most amazing part of these views in regards to the seven year tribulation period; are you ready for this? It was manufactured by a Jesuit Priest who was commissioned to come up with this false interpretation of Bible Prophecy. This raises many questions, such as why was this done and how could so many be drawn into this lie. I hope you will read on as we cover all aspects of this topic and reveal the Bible truth.
This is a brief point by point account of the order of events according to Scripture; there is Christ’s second coming, the resurrection, the catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air which all take place at the same time and at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 “…and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Why would Jesus promise to be with the Church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would then have no meaning.
This false doctrine on the secret rapture is contradictory to the words of Jesus in Matthew 13 when He said the wheat and tares would grow together until the “end of the world” and then would be separated. According to this dual coming secret rapture theory, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, John 6:40 “…and I will raise him up at the last day.” No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Paul declares the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the “same time” the dead in Christ are raised. He says, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Did you note that Jesus called this resurrection the “last day?” But how could it be the “last day” if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the “last trump” (see 1 Corinthians 15:52 below) sound if it really wasn’t the very last moment of time? Imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? Consider also the added testimony from God’s Word;
Matthew 24:27 “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
Matthew 24:30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
1 Corinthians 15:52 “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
Revelation 6:16-17 “And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
There is no understood scripture that says the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be a secret rapture. All these verses show it will be a very loud and very visible event that every eye shall see. There is nothing secret about any aspect of His coming. Those believing in the secret rapture sometimes quote Matthew 24:40-41 out of context. The entire passage reads;
Matthew 24:37-41 “But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Jesus is demonstrating the parallels between the days of Noah and the second coming of Christ. The eight that entered Noah’s Ark were saved and those that scoffed perished as the flood “took them all away.” Many have been taught that the ones taken are the ones saved but note it is actually the ones taken that are destroyed. There was no second chance. Jesus said and “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” The last verse of this chapter tells us what will happen to those who are taken to destruction. Matthew 24:51 “And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Those believing in the secret rapture also quote Jesus in saying He will come as a thief in the night, meaning it will be a secret rapture. Jesus said in Matthew 24:43-44 “But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” Jesus is not talking about coming secretly but coming unexpectedly when we least expect Him and so the wicked will be taken by surprise. This is why Jesus tells us to be ready as we know not the hour of His return. Those who are not right with Christ and living wickedly when Jesus returns we will be taken to destruction as in the days of Noah. See Matthew 24:37-41 above. See also 2 Thessalonians 2:8.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 is also quoted which reads, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” Same message as before be ready for Christ’s unexpected return. And what happens after His return? 1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” How secret is sudden destruction? Those that are left after Jesus’ return encounter “sudden destruction.” Again, just like in the days of Noah.
These two “thief texts” are also used to teach a secret rapture. Revelation 3:3 “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” In both these instances just quoted, the secrecy is also in connection with the timing not the nature of the event, and is exactly the same as the other “thief texts.” Notice the phrase in chapter 3:3 which says “hold fast, and repent” and the last part of verse 15 which says “lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”
This is once again a warning to be not caught living in sin, because we know not the hour which Jesus will return. He will come unexpectedly when you least expect it as does a thief. It would be no good for the thief if you knew when he was coming as you would be ready for him and he could not rob you. In the same way we need to be ready and living in righteousness now and not just when we think Jesus is coming or we will be “caught naked and our shame seen.” Those who love and obey Jesus will be ready for His return. This is the meaning of the phrase “to come as a thief” that is used several times in the Bible to warn us so we will not be left behind.
And still one more. 2 Peter 3:10 says “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Again, absolutely nothing secret. To the contrary, it could not be more obvious. It states after Jesus comes unexpectedly as does a thief, “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise” and “the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth … shall be burned up.” So when Jesus returns the very next thing is the end i.e. the last day. If coming “as a thief” is a secret rapture which takes place seven years before the end of the world, how can the heavens and earth “pass away” as Peter describes it? Three of these “thief texts” are all followed by the same unmistakable catastrophic sudden destruction. Coming as a thief is unexpected, NOT a secret!
Those who believe in a “secret rapture” say that the Greek word “parousia” refers to the secret “coming” of Jesus in His presence and that the Greek word “apokalupsis” refers to the visible glorious “coming” of Jesus in power seven years later. They also teach in middle of this seven year period, (3.5 years) the antichrist will reign. But “parousia” and “apokalupsis” are BOTH used to describe the second coming as we will soon show by its parallel in the “days of Noah.”
Paul uses the word “parousia” in the well known so called “rapture chapter” of 1 Thessalonians 4 when speaking of the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him. Paul then shows that this “parousia” will destroy the man of sin; the Antichrist. Paul says, “whom the Lord shall...destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia].” 2 Thessalonians 2:8. These scriptures unmistakably describe the coming [parousia] of Christ as taking place after the reign of the man of sin, not as a secret rapture before the Antichrist’s reign begins.
The other Greek word “apokalupsis” [revelation] is used in a way that indicates it is not a separate second coming from the time the believers are gathered up. Peter said in 1 Peter 1:13 to “… be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation [apokalupsis] of Jesus Christ;” Why would Christians be exhorted to continue hoping to the end of the world for the grace brought through the revelation of Jesus Christ if their real hope was a secret rapture seven years before the revelation?
These following verses showing Matthew and Luke’s account of the same event prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the words “parousia” and “apokalupsis” do refer to the same event. In Matthew 24:37 we read, “But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be.” And the same account in Luke 17:26, 30; “As it was in the days of Noah...Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed [apokalupsis].”
This shows that the coming [parousia] of Christ and the revelation [apokalupsis] of Christ are the same event. There is absolutely no basis for placing seven years in between. This whole counterfeit secret rapture is built upon a constant repetition of words and ideas that have been repeated so often that millions have assumed that they must be biblically sound.
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I believe there are two raptures, one in the beginning and one in the end.
my church did a study on it, but i forgot already. lol.
i'll go ask my dad
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:my church did a study on it, but i forgot already. lol.
i'll go ask my dad
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:my church did a study on it, but i forgot already. lol.
i'll go ask my dad
Hey, dumbdumb!, ain't you supposed to go for your sex services with your infernal god, Lucifer?
actually i believe in all three raptures. the pre, mid and post trib. we can all debate on whether the rapture will occur before, during or after the tribulations but i believe all are right.
Originally posted by xalkyrie:actually i believe in all three raptures. the pre, mid and post trib. we can all debate on whether the rapture will occur before, during or after the tribulations but i believe all are right.
do you people think that those on the air france are being raptured?
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Hey, dumbdumb!, ain't you supposed to go for your sex services with your infernal god, Lucifer?
lol, if u dare to speak up, u better dare to take responsibility for your words. =)
Originally posted by Fantagf:do you people think that those on the air france are being raptured?
nope.. i don't think so.. it will be a mass event.
but imagine if it happened.. what would u feel if u were left behind?
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
I believe there would be no rapture and that the belief on rapture is not biblical at all or has no biblical basis. To me there is only Christ second coming and the last judgment. There would not be a miraculous wayout even for faithful believers.
I'm planning to write my argument based on the bible.
i think what you believe in is the post-trib rapture. the word rapture is not used in the bible but is still a word used to describe the event.
Originally posted by xalkyrie:i think what you believe in is the post-trib rapture. the word rapture is not used in the bible but is still a word used to describe the event.
Originally posted by xalkyrie:i think what you believe in is the post-trib rapture. the word rapture is not used in the bible but is still a word used to describe the event.
you're right, it's not an actual word in the bible.
rather it's a word used to describe this event:
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Check with local pastor, Pastor Rony, he did an amazing series on the rapture and he is now covering the book of Revelation. He have 10 or 12 reason to believe in the pre trip in his book "the glorious rapture."
One of the "reader friendly" book on the end-times. Can loan off if you like=D
Originally posted by Broderick Elisha:Check with local pastor, Pastor Rony, he did an amazing series on the rapture and he is now covering the book of Revelation. He have 10 or 12 reason to believe in the pre trip in his book "the glorious rapture."
One of the "reader friendly" book on the end-times. Can loan off if you like=D
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
I'm sorry I'm utterly convinced there would not be a pre tribulation rapture and it's not going to happen even if the whole Christians believe there would.
I look forward to Christ second coming not Christ one and a half coming either from sheol, this world of the living or I don't know what.
If Christ is going to come in the middle of the great tribulation and at the end of the great tribulation, then why not life a sinful lifestyle untill the great tribulation start? then start to repent. Rather then leading a Christly lifestyle lifestyle, why not wait untill the anti Christ rise before changing your mind.
Further more, I believe with all of my hear, God will not want us to suffer these tribulation that will come to pass. FYI, it is really horrible.
My 2cent
Originally posted by Broderick Elisha:If Christ is going to come in the middle of the great tribulation and at the end of the great tribulation, then why not life a sinful lifestyle untill the great tribulation start? then start to repent. Rather then leading a Christly lifestyle lifestyle, why not wait untill the anti Christ rise before changing your mind.
Further more, I believe with all of my hear, God will not want us to suffer these tribulation that will come to pass. FYI, it is really horrible.
My 2cent
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Err I don't get your argument about leading a sinful life anyway
There's no doubt it will be hard and horrible but I believe God wants all to go through to the end.
Revelation 13:7-10
It was allowed to fight against God's people and defeat them. It was also given authority over the people of every tribe, nation, language, and race. The beast was worshipped by everyone whose name wasn't written before the time of creation in the book of the lamb who was killed. If you have ears, then listen! If you are doomed to be captured, you will be captured. If you are doomed to be killed by a sword, you will be killed by a sword. This means that God's people must learn to endure and be faithful.
That is God want us to endure until the end
Rev 9:4 The locust were told not to harm the grass on the earth or any plant or any tree. They were to punish only those people who didn't have God's mark on their forehead.
Meaning that there will be people whose forehead is marked to be God's people. They are still in this world.
Other verses too indicate strongly that during tribulation God's people will still remain in this world.
Gentile beilever [you and me, unless you are jewish] are known as the church in the book of revelation, Before the first seal, the books of revelation still talks about the church, after that there is only mention of the church in heaven no church on earth.
The 6th or 7th seals revelation 7 i think seal the 144000 jewish evganist with the seal of God on their forehead.
Danial passage can refer to converts in the tribulation, I can imagine those atheist father[like mine] after seeing their entire family raptured will turn to God in tears.]
Yes abosultly, there is nowhere in the bible is there a single verse that explicitly states that the rapture will take place before the great tribulation, but if you examine all the endtime verse, you will unfold the logical flow that harmonize with multiply cross-ref of the bible.
However Jesus always warn the believer to be ready and to be ready.
But not to be ready of the tribulation but be ready for when the son of man cometh[mathew 24:44, matthew 25:13]
there is a passage in the bible that states that God will keep his believer FROM the great tribulation, not IN. I cannot find it man, sorry will post if I found it.