Originally posted by Stevenson101:I thought Islam is even more stringent on excesses, i don't see that working out much.
How about the view that Christians are more willing to rob weaker cultures because Christanity likes to promote a us versus them mentality, viewing any non Christian believing cultures as inferior and thus valid for complete exploitation ?
Christianity is the richest religion here, yet i see them contributing less proportion wise to the poor compared to religions like Buddhism and Islam. The free food center at Chinatown has to close down because of shrinking donations and New Creation is actually building Church cum Shopping Center.
Talk about an absurd conclusion.
The poor are not well taken care of by the govt.
The poor have not try social networking in church. Who knows it may lift him/her out of poverty?
Originally posted by googoomuck:The Jews are living proof that we all can rely on the promises made by God in the Bible.
No?
Then you have 2 choices.
1. Circumcise yourself, learn Hebrew and pick up a Jewish girl in the hopes you can marry into her family and become technically a Jew.
2. Go find a tall enough building and jump off since if you're not a Jew, God has no interest in saving you.
After all,　God has made no promises whatever so to the rest of us.
Since Jews are the Chosen People why did God even bother creating the other races and civilisations so he can watch us go at each other's throats trying to gain his favour? Then this God is not loving, he is a cruel and extremely capricious being.
I don't see Jews actually benefitting from much of God's promises anyhow. You do know how they've been persecuted since they were driven from Israel yes?
Originally posted by googoomuck:The poor are not well taken care of by the govt.
The poor have not try social networking in church. Who knows it may lift him/her out of poverty?
The point is that there is a condition in gaining help from the church, that you must be part of the church to receive any help from it, while religions like Islam, Buddhism and Taoism do not demand such allegiances and freely give what they have.
I never said anything about church social networking, i merely have issues on why a religion that preaches about love and giving freely demands allegiances for helping you. Then this is a gang, nothing more.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:Then you have 2 choices.
1. Circumcise yourself, learn Hebrew and pick up a Jewish girl in the hopes you can marry into her family and become technically a Jew.
2. Go find a tall enough building and jump off since if you're not a Jew, God has no interest in saving you.
After all,　God has made no promises whatever so to the rest of us.
Since Jews are the Chosen People why did God even bother creating the other races and civilisations so he can watch us go at each other's throats trying to gain his favour? Then this God is not loving, he is a cruel and extremely capricious being.
I don't see Jews actually benefitting from much of God's promises anyhow. You do know how they've been persecuted since they were driven from Israel yes?
You are not talking sense here. God does not ask Christians to test Him by jumping off buildings.
Circumcision is a covenant between God and His favourite Jews, not between Christians. God did not enter such a covenant with the Arabs either.
The fact is that the Jews have triumphed to this day despite of the persecution in the past. Why don't you acknowledge this fact?
Originally posted by Stevenson101:The point is that there is a condition in gaining help from the church, that you must be part of the church to receive any help from it, while religions like Islam, Buddhism and Taoism do not demand such allegiances and freely give what they have.
I never said anything about church social networking, i merely have issues on why a religion that preaches about love and giving freely demands allegiances for helping you. Then this is a gang, nothing more.
The over-enthusiasm of the Christians to convert others is because of their belief in salvation.
I would like to know how many Singaporeans who need financial help from the govt are Christians? This is important because if the number is low, maybe it better for them to seek help from fellow Christians. It' will be a shame if the churches are rich but there are still Chrisitans who occupy the bottom rung of the income ladder.
Originally posted by googoomuck:You are not talking sense here. God does not ask Christians to test Him by jumping off buildings.
Circumcision is a covenant between God and His favourite Jews, not between Christians. God did not enter such a covenant with the Arabs either.
The fact is that the Jews have triumphed to this day despite of the persecution in the past. Why don't you acknowledge this fact?
I haven't said anything about Jews you were the one who sought to bring them into the discussion. I merely said that the Bible was a political tool of the Roman Empire, hardly an accurate source of historical information, i have made no mention of Jews.
My point is, since the other races and civilisations did not enter into any pact with God then he has no obligation whatsoever to the well being of the rest of us. The Roman Empire certainly had no actual exchange(unless you count the Crucifix) whatever so with Jesus or Yahweh, they merely hijacked the Hebrew religion and called it their own.
I view the success of the Jews today as simple genetic selection, those not intelligent to survive or escape the persecution did not get to breed fullstop. If this was considered to be a promise from God, i'd say the Hebrews really got shafted on their end of the deal.
Now their country is surrounded on all sides by hostile nations. They will never know peace in my lifetime, they have simply offended too much people. They will continue to give up more rights and freedom to their government in exchange for more security.
You considered that the Jews have obtained a triumph, i see that they are involved in a war of attrition they cannot get themselves out of.
Originally posted by googoomuck:The over-enthusiasm of the Christians to convert others is because of their belief in salvation.
I would like to know how many Singaporeans who need financial help from the govt are Christians? This is important because if the number is low, maybe it better for them to seek help from fellow Christians. It' will be a shame if the churches are rich but there are still Chrisitans who occupy the bottom rung of the income ladder.
Like i said, Christianity likes to promote the they're the only ones capable of giving salvation mentality to spread their religion. To the objective outsider, that is threatening others to submit or you would in many ways go to hell.
I'm pretty sure the people who needs financial help won't have Christians as a majority, most likely not intelligent enough to seek refuge with a larger group for protection and assistance. Though of course i'm hardly a statistician, so i don't really have the numbers to back me up.
I can certainly understand why Christianity is so popular. As a CHC cellgroup member once explained to me, it doesn't matter how much evil i've done as long as i pray to God i immediately obtain a "Get out of Hell for Eternity" card free.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
I haven't said anything about Jews you were the one who sought to bring them into the discussion. I merely said that the Bible was a political tool of the Roman Empire, hardly an accurate source of historical information, i have made no mention of Jews.My point is, since the other races and civilisations did not enter into any pact with God then he has no obligation whatsoever to the well being of the rest of us. The Roman Empire certainly had no actual exchange(unless you count the Crucifix) whatever so with Jesus or Yahweh, they merely hijacked the Hebrew religion and called it their own.
I view the success of the Jews today as simple genetic selection, those not intelligent to survive or escape the persecution did not get to breed fullstop. If this was considered to be a promise from God, i'd say the Hebrews really got shafted on their end of the deal.
Now their country is surrounded on all sides by hostile nations. They will never know peace in my lifetime, they have simply offended too much people. They will continue to give up more rights and freedom to their government in exchange for more security.
You considered that the Jews have obtained a triumph, i see that they are involved in a war of attrition they cannot get themselves out of.
There is the gospel in the new testament. That's God's promise to the gentile Christians. The other gentiles who do not believe, it's their loss.
As for the war of attrition, it's the enemy that suffer many times more than the Jews. The much bigger hostile nations cannot destroy Israel. What does it indicate? You may call it luck for the tiny state of Israel. I believe it's God's promise to Abraham and Jacob's descendants.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Like i said, Christianity likes to promote the they're the only ones capable of giving salvation mentality to spread their religion. To the objective outsider, that is threatening others to submit or you would in many ways go to hell.I'm pretty sure the people who needs financial help won't have Christians as a majority, most likely not intelligent enough to seek refuge with a larger group for protection and assistance. Though of course i'm hardly a statistician, so i don't really have the numbers to back me up.
I can certainly understand why Christianity is so popular. As a CHC cellgroup member once explained to me, it doesn't matter how much evil i've done as long as i pray to God i immediately obtain a "Get out of Hell for Eternity" card free.
"I can certainly understand why Christianity is so popular. As a CHC cellgroup member once explained to me, it doesn't matter how much evil i've done as long as i pray to God i immediately obtain a "Get out of Hell for Eternity" card free."
I think you confuse Christianity with Islam.
"Sinning is the best part of repentance" is not part of the doctrine of Christianity.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Like i said, Christianity likes to promote the they're the only ones capable of giving salvation mentality to spread their religion. To the objective outsider, that is threatening others to submit or you would in many ways go to hell.I'm pretty sure the people who needs financial help won't have Christians as a majority, most likely not intelligent enough to seek refuge with a larger group for protection and assistance. Though of course i'm hardly a statistician, so i don't really have the numbers to back me up.
I can certainly understand why Christianity is so popular. As a CHC cellgroup member once explained to me, it doesn't matter how much evil i've done as long as i pray to God i immediately obtain a "Get out of Hell for Eternity" card free.
Do they actually teach that??? Get out of Hell for Eternity??? Any CHC members wanna clarify??? =(
Originally posted by googoomuck:"I can certainly understand why Christianity is so popular. As a CHC cellgroup member once explained to me, it doesn't matter how much evil i've done as long as i pray to God i immediately obtain a "Get out of Hell for Eternity" card free."
I think you confuse Christianity with Islam.
"Sinning is the best part of repentance" is not part of the doctrine of Christianity.
Yes, yet the Quran also states that
"You have your religion and i have mine"
It has also made no attempts to establish itself as the One religion. And the way i see it , there's far less accounts of Islamic countries plundering and exploiting cultures beyond the Middle East/Africa compared to Christian ones.
Granted, there are radicals who chose to cherry pick what they want from the Quran. But the same has been done for Christians (Look at the different sects and the Crusades). Idiots are bountiful everywhere, and are the ambassadors that links all races, religion and cultures.
If you wish to continue your prejudice of Islam, kindly start another thread here or in Speaker's Corner and i (I think quite a few others) would gladly debate with you.
This thread, however deals with whether Christianity has anything to do with the West's success.
Originally posted by googoomuck:There is the gospel in the new testament. That's God's promise to the gentile Christians. The other gentiles who do not believe, it's their loss.
As for the war of attrition, it's the enemy that suffer many times more than the Jews. The much bigger hostile nations cannot destroy Israel. What does it indicate? You may call it luck for the tiny state of Israel. I believe it's God's promise to Abraham and Jacob's descendants.
Like i said, the Bible was created as a political tool of the Roman Empire. Christianity was Rome's creation, not of Jesus or God.
Fine, it is my loss. If Heaven truly exists, and non believers such as I would go to Hell, so be it. At least i can meet more kindred there.
However, the point of this thread was that Christian nations (The West) was not satisfied with leaving non Christian gentiles alone and attempted to force Christianity on them through military endavours and using it as an excuse for slavery and exploitation.
This is the main reason for their strength, both economically and militarily in the Modern Age. Yes Christianity is the main reason for the success of the West, but only because it fostered a "you're either with us or against us" mentality, not that it somehow gave a spiritual, physical or mental advantage.
Bodycounts is hardly a good indication of whether victory can be declared. The Communists should have lost on all fronts if you chose to see it that way. The Arab World, even the Gaza Strip has plenty of young men to spare. History would decide who is the winner.
If you like the Jews so much, that is your choice. I see them as normal human beings, capable of creating great wonders and committing heinous sins at the same time. They are of equal value to any Christians or Muslim to me.
Originally posted by kager82:Do they actually teach that??? Get out of Hell for Eternity??? Any CHC members wanna clarify??? =(
Perhaps i overexaggerated with the For Eternity portion for theatrical effects. I get like that when i'm in a writting mood. Any offense made i apologize.
However, the actual answer i got was that no matter what sins i've committed as long as i pray for repetence i could go to Heaven.
While i can see how that would be nice for people who truely repent, it seems too easy a ticket for me. There are far too much incidents where heinous sins were committed but the person who committed didn't even feel that way. (George Bush II, for one)
So the question comes, if you committed a sin but you yourself do not know it or did not feel it was a sin, can you truely repent?
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Perhaps i overexaggerated with the For Eternity portion for theatrical effects. I get like that when i'm in a writting mood. Any offense made i apologize.However, the actual answer i got was that no matter what sins i've committed as long as i pray for repetence i could go to Heaven.
While i can see how that would be nice for people who truely repent, it seems too easy a ticket for me. There are far too much incidents where heinous sins were committed but the person who committed didn't even feel that way. (George Bush II, for one)
So the question comes, if you committed a sin but you yourself do not know it or did not feel it was a sin, can you truely repent?
Sins are anything that separates you from God... Further details, I'll post it up later as I'm outside at Acer Centre with my friend =)
But as Christians, we are advised to flee from sin, let alone committing it. So it is quite wrong to say that we can commit sins knowingly... That's what my church and I believe. =)
Originally posted by laurence82:nice try, but its epic phail
I wasn't trying anything I was just giving my opinion that in the last decade or so I see America to stand less on liberty and human rights. The only reason this happened is that they've become more corrupted than ever before.
Imo the only thing to have the America which stands on justice, freedom and human rights again is to bring back another nemesis just like during the cold war. If America doesn't change then let evils tear apart one another. Hegemony is the root of corruption.
Nice try laurence but I don't let you off that easy
Originally posted by kager82:Sins are anything that separates you from God... Further details, I'll post it up later as I'm outside at Acer Centre with my friend =)
But as Christians, we are advised to flee from sin, let alone committing it. So it is quite wrong to say that we can commit sins knowingly... That's what my church and I believe. =)
So it is quite wrong to say that we can commit sins knowingly...
why not? I heard from friends whose christian husbands are committing adultery and they confronted the husbands but they still keep seeing the mistresses
Originally posted by kager82:Sins are anything that separates you from God... Further details, I'll post it up later as I'm outside at Acer Centre with my friend =)
But as Christians, we are advised to flee from sin, let alone committing it. So it is quite wrong to say that we can commit sins knowingly... That's what my church and I believe. =)
I do not believe humans, most at least commit socially destructive actions with full idea of the consequences or in the case of terrorists do it without provocation.
Even if they did, they would come up with reasons to justify so that in their point of view they are doing the right thing or that the end justifies the means.
Originally posted by Fantagf:
So it is quite wrong to say that we can commit sins knowingly...why not? I heard from friends whose christian husbands are committing adultery and they confronted the husbands but they still keep seeing the mistresses
Hee hee... Totally different issues altogther... The question is... are they "Christians" to start with?
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
I do not believe humans, most at least commit socially destructive actions with full idea of the consequences or in the case of terrorists do it without provocation.Even if they did, they would come up with reasons to justify so that in their point of view they are doing the right thing or that the end justifies the means.
Totally agree... They'll come out with 1001 reasons to say why they do this and when they still deserves salvation...
Let's just let God judge their hearts for their actions... I'm not a perfect person too... I commit sins too... I confess my sins, I repent, I try not to do it again.... I mean, I a sinner to start with, so I can't say that I did not commit sins knowingly, in fact I do...
But most importantly, it is where I draw the line and how do I get open about my sins and really sit down and talk to brothers about my struggles and how to overcome it, rather than just justifying the actions...
Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Yes, yet the Quran also states that"You have your religion and i have mine"
It has also made no attempts to establish itself as the One religion. And the way i see it , there's far less accounts of Islamic countries plundering and exploiting cultures beyond the Middle East/Africa compared to Christian ones.
Granted, there are radicals who chose to cherry pick what they want from the Quran. But the same has been done for Christians (Look at the different sects and the Crusades). Idiots are bountiful everywhere, and are the ambassadors that links all races, religion and cultures.
If you wish to continue your prejudice of Islam, kindly start another thread here or in Speaker's Corner and i (I think quite a few others) would gladly debate with you.
This thread, however deals with whether Christianity has anything to do with the West's success.
Prejudice? There's also living proof from the past right up to the present that
Judaism focuses on the laws of God
Christianity focuses on the love of God
Islam focuses on the wrath of God.
Christianity has no well-defined concept of holy war before the middle ages. The First Crusade was launched in 1095 AD, in response to Islamic conquests which began in 632AD.
Do I need to go into present day Jihad to make a point?
You have your religion and I have mine ???!!! - the Quran
Originally posted by googoomuck:Prejudice? There's also living proof from the past right up to the present that
Judaism focuses on the laws of God
Christianity focuses on the love of God
Islam focuses on the wrath of God.Christianity has no well-defined concept of holy war before the middle ages. The First Crusade was launched in 1095 AD, in response to Islamic conquests which began in 632AD.
Do I need to go into present day Jihad to make a point?
You have your religion and I have mine ???!!! - the Quran
Heh, you claim Christianity focuses on the love of God but yet its bodycount seems to pale besides anything Islam has been able to dish out yet.
Present day Jihad? What Jihad? Where are the armies of Islam? Where are their bombers, tanks and artillery?
How much have the Islamic terrorists killed? How many more were killed in the "Liberation" of Afghanistan and Iraq, in the name of God, Freedom and Democracy?
Who should i judge the biggest evil? The one with the highest actual bodycount or the one most mentioned on the television?
Originally posted by kager82:
Hee hee... Totally different issues altogther... The question is... are they "Christians" to start with?"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)
both husbands and wives are christians. a few of these couples served fervently in church.
Originally posted by kager82:Totally agree... They'll come out with 1001 reasons to say why they do this and when they still deserves salvation...
Let's just let God judge their hearts for their actions... I'm not a perfect person too... I commit sins too... I confess my sins, I repent, I try not to do it again.... I mean, I a sinner to start with, so I can't say that I did not commit sins knowingly, in fact I do...
But most importantly, it is where I draw the line and how do I get open about my sins and really sit down and talk to brothers about my struggles and how to overcome it, rather than just justifying the actions...
The world would be a far more peaceful place if more thought like you i reckon. But the core of the religion insists on spreading salvation to others, that becomes a problem when the others in question have their religion and beliefs and do not require anymore salvation.
The world is never in black and white, what i consider a sin you might consider a virtue.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:The world would be a far more peaceful place if more thought like you i reckon. But the core of the religion insists on spreading salvation to others, that becomes a problem when the others in question have their religion and beliefs and do not require anymore salvation.
The world is never in black and white, what i consider a sin you might consider a virtue.
according to christians and the bible, it is the commandment from god, christ to spread the word of god.
Originally posted by Fantagf:according to christians and the bible, it is the commandment from god, christ to spread the word of god.
I spend 10 years in a Christian missionary school so i am familiar with the Bible though not fluent enough to memorize quotes.
That is why it could be so easily abused, after all they ARE trying to save you. So anything they do is justified and good in the name of the Lord.