Atheist Meets God
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Originally posted by despondent:
for A), christians have 2 diff answers to tis. it boils down to whether they believe in predestination or freewill. predestination believers wil say tat those babies tat were predestined from the beginning wil make to heaven, the rest wun. freewill believers wil say tat the baby wil go heaven cos he/she is too young to have the knowledge of wads rite n wrong.
for B) the bible did say tat anyone who has nvr heard the gospel in AD yrs wil be judged by the law...whether or not they wil make it to heaven depends on God's judgement which we humans wun noe for sure. but in modern days, almost everyone has heard the gospel, hence few fall into tis category of nvr heard the gospel b4...
A) So you're saying that non-believers can also go to heaven, so long as they have not heard of the gospel? May I know the origins of this view? And how does this view relate to John 14:6?B) How is "heard the gospel" defined? Most people heard of Christianity and met Christians (ironically, as a result of colonization), is that considered as "heard the gospel"?
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Originally posted by despondent:
one addtional pt...how sure r u tat those red indians realli nvr heard the gospel at all b4 they died? as long as they heard it told to them once, they will be liable for judgement if they dun accept. missionaries have been going to such isolated places to share the gospel...however, if they indeed NEVER heard the gospel b4, then they wil be judged under the law by God...will they be heaven? onli God noes...
I made some logical assumptions on why most Red Indians never heard of the gospel:-
- In order to take over the land of the Red Indians, the majority of the early colonizers are gun-carrying soldiers.
- Missionaries are a very rare minority, and they are mainly there to provide services for the Christian European soldiers, due to language barriers with Red Indians.
- When Christian soldiers start killing locals and taking over the land, it is only natural for the locals to assume that Christianity is bad. Even if a missionary is able to overcome the language barrier and try to preach to the locals, the locals will reject it due to their bad experience with Christians.Let me know if you do not agree.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
I was just making a point that you seem to doubt about the nonexistence of God.
Well then if you got question time to find out. What do you have to lose in your search for the truth. If you are able to differentiate between Christian, Christianity as religion and organization, God and Christian as way of life then you got nothing to lose.
Who knows you might prove yourself right that there is no God. Or you prove yourself wrong. What do you have to lose. asking a question here will bear no fruit.
I or somebody else can give you our own testimony but you still can deny that so what's the point. Find it out yourself.
You know there is no sign at the church door that read unbelievers denied entry. You are always welcome to search. Just sit there, listen, I mean search. read the bible see what it contains. Just search.. If you rely on your logic then USE IT WHILE SEARCHING.
Life after all is about discovering.
And if one finds God it would be such a profound personal discovery ever.
Unless you're too afraid to risk that you might prove yourself wrong . . .Well, I've been to Church and took part in Christian gatherings on quite a few occasions as a visitor. I can differentiate between Christians and Christianity.
But as a person living in the real world, a religion is only as good as the behavior of its followers. If the followers are faithful following the teachings of God and doing good, then non-believers will naturally be more inclined to be believers. No point preaching the "Best religion in the world", but the followers go around sinning all the time, correct? If a religion is real, it's followers will be fearful of the consequences of doing evil. Do you see that among the majority of your fellow Christians?
Btw, "Unless you're too afraid to risk that you might prove yourself wrong . . .". So how did you prove to yourself that Christianity is real? Care to share?
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Originally posted by kilfer:
Well, I've been to Church and took part in Christian gatherings on quite a few occasions as a visitor. I can differentiate between Christians and Christianity.
But as a person living in the real world, a religion is only as good as the behavior of its followers. If the followers are faithful following the teachings of God and doing good, then non-believers will naturally be more inclined to be believers. No point preaching the "Best religion in the world", but the followers go around sinning all the time, correct? If a religion is real, it's followers will be fearful of the consequences of doing evil. Do you see that among the majority of your fellow Christians?
Btw, "Unless you're too afraid to risk that you might prove yourself wrong . . .". So how did you prove to yourself that Christianity is real? Care to share?
Hmm perhpas at the beginning new convert expects much from fellow believers. But the truth is any Christian should only look at Jesus and not passing judgment of Jesus teaching on people who claim Christians. Otherwise the convert is only following the masses. And when fellow Christians are letting him down he would lose the faith and instead of seeking God he would seek companion in his new found community(though nothing wrong with that) but the purpose of being a Christian is not to find a new community but rather to be Jesus follower and to get to know God so that God grants him salvation that is life after death and if lucky power after death. If lucky without having to wait if not after spending some time . . . .
anyway I'd be more than happy to share with you
At first I just believed because I grew up in a Catholic family and I has been baptized since baby. Then when I was in my 7th grade I was given a vision of Jesus while being fully awake. God then gave me a strong love for Jesus so that I could ask something from Him and I did. I asked to be allowed to see Jesus face as all the pictures of Jesus are only man made. Was immediately given the vision of Jesus. I was expecting to see a man in robe but I saw a being enclosed with such an immense white light that even His slightest figure was not able to be seen. The light was coming from the direction of His face. I tried stubbornly to look in the direction of His face for several time until God made both my eyeballs hurt because of the sheer intensity of the light which was coming out from the direction of His face.
And I knew It wasChrist because I just asked to be allowed to see Him and I knew that Christ was truly without sin, the only 'man' worth defending and fighting for. I expected to see a man but was confronted with something beyond my wildest expectation. Now I know that Christ is alive and glorified. I know that Christ is my God, my savior.
There are other things I'd like to share with you but I think this is enough for now. Darn typos everywhere. -
i nvr said tat non-christians can go heaven if they nvr heard the gospel...i am saying tat it is up to God's judgement on them keeping the laws...they may stil end up in hell...John 14:6 was written on the basis tat the onli way to heaven is thru jesus. the context is for ppl who live in new testament times n r under grace n nt under law. by telling a non-believer wad is written in John 14:6, it means they will no longer be judged according to the law cos they have alredi heard abt christianity...
tis leads to the answer of ur next qn...telling them the gospel need nt be strictly the 1st 4 books of the bible. as long as the the non-christian has received the truths abt jesus(which is the main crux abt christianity), His Lordship n salvation over our lives, the non-believer is considerd to have heard the gospel. receiving could be in the form of preaching, healing, thru a drama during easter etc.
i dun doubt ur assumptions or anything like tat...i am juz saying tat IF it so happened tat any of the red indians heard the gospel, then he wun go heaven if he didnt accept christ as personal saviour n Lord...
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oh yes, non-believers who have read the gospel r also deemed as those who noe the gospel so they wun be judged under the law...to be judged under the law in modern days, one must go thru an entire life without absolutely noeing, hearing, reading anything abt the gospel or christianity which in modern day, when missionaries r almost everywhere, near impossible...
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as for biblical references on non-christians who have nvr heard the gospel making it to heaven, i muz admit tat i dunno where the verse/s is/are...maybe miracles & prophecies can help me out???
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Originally posted by despondent:
as for biblical references on non-christians who have nvr heard the gospel making it to heaven, i muz admit tat i dunno where the verse/s is/are...maybe miracles & prophecies can help me out???
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Romans 10:13-15
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Thank you for the sharing, everyone.
Let's do this on a discussion basis. No right/wrong and no winner/loser. I just want to know more about the thinking of Christians to figure out what I perceive to be illogical bits.
And do pardon me for bringing this discussion down to a slower pace, as I have my project deadlines to meet, and I'm sure you guys have your stuff to do as well.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Hmm perhpas at the beginning new convert expects much from fellow believers. But the truth is any Christian should only look at Jesus and not passing judgment of Jesus teaching on people who claim Christians. Otherwise the convert is only following the masses. And when fellow Christians are letting him down he would lose the faith and instead of seeking God he would seek companion in his new found community(though nothing wrong with that) but the purpose of being a Christian is not to find a new community but rather to be Jesus follower and to get to know God so that God grants him salvation that is life after death and if lucky power after death. If lucky without having to wait if not after spending some time . . . .
anyway I'd be more than happy to share with you
At first I just believed because I grew up in a Catholic family and I has been baptized since baby. Then when I was in my 7th grade I was given a vision of Jesus while being fully awake. God then gave me a strong love for Jesus so that I could ask something from Him and I did. I asked to be allowed to see Jesus face as all the pictures of Jesus are only man made. Was immediately given the vision of Jesus. I was expecting to see a man in robe but I saw a being enclosed with such an immense white light that even His slightest figure was not able to be seen. The light was coming from the direction of His face. I tried stubbornly to look in the direction of His face for several time until God made both my eyeballs hurt because of the sheer intensity of the light which was coming out from the direction of His face.
And I knew It wasChrist because I just asked to be allowed to see Him and I knew that Christ was truly without sin, the only 'man' worth defending and fighting for. I expected to see a man but was confronted with something beyond my wildest expectation. Now I know that Christ is alive and glorified. I know that Christ is my God, my savior.
There are other things I'd like to share with you but I think this is enough for now. Darn typos everywhere.
I agree with you that a new convert expects much from fellow believers. I did experienced that disappointment before. As for looking only at Jesus instead of his followers, how shld we evaluate any teaching/organization? Shld we look at what is preached, or what is done? ("Do what I say, don't do what I do.") We have an entire group of people forming a Church to learn abt God, so we'd expect the results of that learning to be expressed in the organizational culture (and therefore behavior of the believers as individuals and as a group).Looking at the recent AWARE saga, the new exco (comprising mostly women from COOS, with support of 100 new members with <=3 months membership) hijack a well respected organization built up with 25 yrs of sweat and toil from the old guards. The biggest contention was not about the homosexual issue, but how the new exco plotted to overthrow the old guards in a very sneaky and underhanded manner. And it was precisely the good will and inclusive nature of AWARE that allowed the new exco to succeed. This incident will create distrust in NGOs, if I'm in charge of an NGO, I'll change the constitution to prevent this kind of coup.
Quoting from http://blog.alicecheong.com/?p=395, Ms Mathi said: ‘The building of an institution takes many years; building its value system is even harder... Why can’t they come in and be part of the process, and build it together and in a more evolutionary manner? That way, the comfort level will be high for everyone.’
I feel that the ten commandments were violated,
- You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
- You shall not steal.
- You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.And the new exco terminated the services of the AWARE centre manager (in the midst of a severe recession, this can affect an entire family's livelihood).
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Thank you for sharing on your visions of Jesus. Pardon me for bursting the bubble, but visions are a common occurence. Hitler heard a voice that saved his life, and he thought he was the next messiah (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/osshitler1.html). And how do you know that the vision was not a natural phenomenon (like dreams), or a trick by the Devil?
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Originally posted by despondent:
i nvr said tat non-christians can go heaven if they nvr heard the gospel...i am saying tat it is up to God's judgement on them keeping the laws...they may stil end up in hell...John 14:6 was written on the basis tat the onli way to heaven is thru jesus. the context is for ppl who live in new testament times n r under grace n nt under law. by telling a non-believer wad is written in John 14:6, it means they will no longer be judged according to the law cos they have alredi heard abt christianity...
tis leads to the answer of ur next qn...telling them the gospel need nt be strictly the 1st 4 books of the bible. as long as the the non-christian has received the truths abt jesus(which is the main crux abt christianity), His Lordship n salvation over our lives, the non-believer is considerd to have heard the gospel. receiving could be in the form of preaching, healing, thru a drama during easter etc.
i dun doubt ur assumptions or anything like tat...i am juz saying tat IF it so happened tat any of the red indians heard the gospel, then he wun go heaven if he didnt accept christ as personal saviour n Lord...
Originally posted by despondent:oh yes, non-believers who have read the gospel r also deemed as those who noe the gospel so they wun be judged under the law...to be judged under the law in modern days, one must go thru an entire life without absolutely noeing, hearing, reading anything abt the gospel or christianity which in modern day, when missionaries r almost everywhere, near impossible...
So can I interpret it as non-believers will be able to go to heaven if God judged the non-believers as keeping to the law?
I still have queries on the definition of "heard the gospel". Do you think you will accept the preachings of a Christian missionary, if the setting is that Christians massacring your love ones? This applies to any religion.
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spots kilfer
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Originally posted by xalkyrie:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Romans 10:13-15
So how should we interpret this? Can non-believers go to heaven if God judged the non-believers as keeping to the law?
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Originally posted by brainerror:
spots kilfer
eeks... it's an error! *sprays brain-ticide* Lolx! -
Originally posted by kilfer:
So how should we interpret this? Can non-believers go to heaven if God judged the non-believers as keeping to the law?
no. Jesus is the ONLY way.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans 3:19-20
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Originally posted by kilfer:
eeks... it's an error! *sprays brain-ticide* Lolx!
brainy faints*
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Originally posted by xalkyrie:
no. Jesus is the ONLY way.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans 3:19-20
honestly, everyone is wrong.
be it you're a believer or not, be it you're good or bad.
have you found the right answer as to where you will really go after life?
i, myself still wont know till im dead in my single bed.
if you can answer me, then you should start preparing to debate.
thank you. -
Originally posted by brainerror:
honestly, everyone is wrong.
be it you're a believer or not, be it you're good or bad.
have you found the right answer as to where you will really go after life?
i, myself still wont know till im dead in my single bed.
if you can answer me, then you should start preparing to debate.
thank you.Heaven no doubt
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well, jerry thats because you choose to believe you will make it to heaven mah.
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its not belive
is faith
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just a word for u, kilfer...many of us christians dun look at God's teachings based on human logic cos we recognise tat He is beyond human logic...in fact, while u may not like tis word, faith plays an impt role in christianity n perhaps other religions too...so when u say tat certain things r illogical to u, i can understand. however, who r we to use our limited human logic to say tat an all-noeing God is illogical? i dun mean to say tat we dun ask qns. i do agree tat faith shld nt be blind. however, when u say tat God's word is illogical, do u mean its WITHOUT logic or BEYOND logic? christians wil tell u its BEYOND logic, not WITHOUT logic. tats y we r given the Holy Spirit to guide us n help us to understand God's word betta...it amuses me sometimes how non-believers who dun have the Holy Spirit interrogate christians who have the Holy Spirit tat their understanding of God's word is wrong. its like a patient accusing a doctor's assistant tat he understood wad the doctor said wrongly when the assistant is closer to the doctor than the patient...
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Originally posted by kilfer:.....
Thank you for sharing on your visions of Jesus. Pardon me for bursting the bubble, but visions are a common occurence. Hitler heard a voice that saved his life, and he thought he was the next messiah (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/osshitler1.html). And how do you know that the vision was not a natural phenomenon (like dreams), or a trick by the Devil?
Like I wrote I told you my testimony but it would probably bear no fruit to you because you chose not to take it. I knew because I'm the one experienced it and it was no dream at all. You didn't understand because you never had it. NO devil would give you overwhelming love for Jesus.
I don't know about Hitler but looking at his life(decisions and deeds) I wouldn't take his words seriously. The German people then took Hitler seriously and look where it got them.