Originally posted by dumbdumb!:from history, we have seen that nobody questioned the pope's final words on any matter, except during the reformation (and like i said, they were nearly killed for "heresy")
if the pope has said something wrong, there is no way for you to speak up, judging from the current hierachy. the most you can do is tell your priest, who will probably just listen and forget about it. you can only walk out if the teachings disturb you enough. (that's what i do during church actually, if i hear something that isn't what the bible says)
but at least these are thinking people, and do not just swallow everything someone says. i'm not sure if you listen to homlies - my gf sometimes doze off during the most impt part of the mass (to me it's the homly, although i believe every part of the service is important, worship, communion, sermon, and prayer)
what can you do, when the pope starts teaching dubious teachings?
As I said, there are 2 sides to a coin as far as reformation is concerned like a marriage turning sour. What will you do?
What you said could be true but until the Pope has done what you said, nobody knows. The reason you get the idea is because of what you have been told and one of the thing that people used to put this point across is that all priest have taken a vow of obidience. The big question is "If the Pope said something wrong...." and until that happens, we don't know the reaction.
So far have you heard anything about the Pope's teaching during Mass? As I said, the Pope is not the Church but the leader of the Church. He has his position and authority just like the senior pastor (or whatever the position is known in your Church). The teachings during all Mass are based on Catholic version of understanding of the Bibles and not based on 1 person (the Pope past or present). If you said we swallow everything at this point, yes I agree because that's what we believed in (the homily) because the priest is teaching based on the Church's teaching - not his own interpretation.
Your gf dozing off during homily is really a personal issue of hers.....how can we help? Wait quarrel how? So, better leave it between you and her. But it has nothing to do with the Pope or the Church teachings - agree?
I agree with you that every part of the Mass is important especially the Holy Communion for baptised Catholics.
what can you do, when the pope starts teaching dubious teachings? Until that happens, I cannot tell you honestly what I can and will do.
But as I mentioned before, the Church was in bad shape before but there are many people who stayed and nurse the Church and St Francis of Assisi is one of them. If you have time, you can read up on this Saint and what he did.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:doctrines were corrupted by corrupted clergy (or pastors, if you choose).... otherwise, what else can humans corrupt????
so if the catholic church have corrupt clergy, i am sure you have corrupt doctrines....
seriously, sometimes i find it quite, hilarious as how catholics attempt to paint your church as incorruptible... and how you guys are attempting defend your church as being perfect.
Corrupt clergy and corrupt doctrines are the same? Yes, quite hilarious to me....
Corrupt clegry are something like those who think that it's ok to deviate from our convictions. So what if I am corrupted or refuse to follow the doctrines (such as the doctrine that says we will Deny Christ)? It does not affect the overall missions statement or view of the Church.....just because one deviate, so it's ok.
The doctrines remained but it is corrup clegry that deviate.....the doctrines did not get corrupted. Make sense? Or maybe you can let me know which are the corrupt doctrines and are they still in the Church doctrine?
I don't agree that Catholics are trying to paint any pictures or should do so. Most, if not all Catholics will admit and agree to the currupt state of affairs of the Church before....
But does that means that the Church will be in the same state forever? Does that means that having corrupt clegry before means it is corrupted forever and never to be trusted again?
We have corrupted minister before so how? To say our government cannot be trusted and that they are all corrupted?
Reformation was brought into this by dumbdumb and his contention that reformation comes about due to lousy Pope. And it seems like as long as there is a Pope, the Church will be in that same state. So your reasoning on human running organsiation etc... is agreeable.
Is reformation justified? Perhaps....like I said, when a marriage turn challenging, what would you do?
By the way, can you help me fit and execute the salvation theory of faith leading to good works? Just a simple can or cannot.....
And is salvation in hope certain or not? Again, a simple yes or now answer will do.
One last one, can a person who deny Christ claim to have faith in Christ? Yes or no?
Talking about reformation is going OT liao isn't it ??
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Corrupt clergy and corrupt doctrines are the same? Yes, quite hilarious to me....
you know, for a smart boy, you are sure confused with the conjunctions....
when did i say that corrupt clergy AND corrupt doctrines are the same...??? if you cannot point out where i'd said this and your conclusion is based on your own warped interpretation, then you have some serious comprehension problem.
i said corrupt clergy will corrupt the doctrine, meaning there WERE sound doctrines to start with but such doctrines were corrupted by the corrupt clergy... otherwise corrupt clergy corrupt what, if not the doctrine?
By the way, can you help me fit and execute the salvation theory of faith leading to good works? Just a simple can or cannot.....
i know i am saved.... Jesus saved me.... i do not take my salvation for granted.... because he first loved me i must loved others ---- simple enough for you?
almost every government have good polices.... corrupt ministers corrupt the good policies and make the corrupt..... also simple enough for you?
i am not arguing about the pope.... what you see in him is none of my business.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
... i said corrupt clergy will corrupt the doctrine, meaning there WERE sound doctrines to start with but such doctrines were corrupted by the corrupt clergy... otherwise corrupt clergy corrupt what, if not the doctrine?
Not sure whether you read my previous response which I reproduce below.
Previously posted by Omnia:
I should clarify that when I mention corrupt clergymen, I mean clergymen who do not live according to Church teachings (ie: not 'practise what they preach') or deliberately misrepresent official teachings for their own earthly gains. They are certainly a disgrace and should be censured. But this in no way means that the official teachings of the Catholic Church were 'corrupt' or 'contradictory to the bible' at the time of the reformation, which they weren't.
Before, during and after the reformation, the official doctrines of the Catholic Church were sound and continue to be so. It was corrupted clergymen who either misrepresented these teachings for their own earthly gains or who did not live according to the sound doctrines they were preaching (thereby setting very bad examples for the faithful). These corrupt elements have since been excised and the Church continues to have to deal with such issues when they arise, as with any large earthly organisation.
Originally posted by Omnia:Not sure whether you read my previous response which I reproduce below.
Before, during and after the reformation, the official doctrines of the Catholic Church were sound and continue to be so. It was corrupted clergymen who either misrepresented these teachings for their own earthly gains or who did not live according to the sound doctrines they were preaching (thereby setting very bad examples for the faithful). These corrupt elements have since been excised and the Church continues to have to deal with such issues when they arise, as with any large earthly organisation.
but the point still stays valid. the leaders went wrong, and majority of the followers either didn't know, and blindly followed, or had no choice, but to follow and turn a blind eye to it.
if there weren't people who called for a reformation (the same people whom the catholic church condemned as heretics), there won't be a wake up call.
everyone who is in power, can be corrupted by it, the system didn't change from the past till the present, the check on authority is still unchanged isn't it?
corruption can (may even be) happen(ing) again.
btw, happy lunar new year everyone. =D
i just came from another catholic's house. on one corner, they put statues of Jesus, and on another corner, they put statues of chinese deities.
it's things like these which i doubt you all.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:but the point still stays valid. the leaders went wrong, and majority of the followers either didn't know, and blindly followed, or had no choice, but to follow and turn a blind eye to it.
if there weren't people who called for a reformation (the same people whom the catholic church condemned as heretics), there won't be a wake up call.
everyone who is in power, can be corrupted by it, the system didn't change from the past till the present, the check on authority is still unchanged isn't it?
corruption can (may even be) happen(ing) again.
The reformers were heretics because they wanted to change christian doctrines handed down from Jesus and the apostles which the Catholic Church has been faithfully teaching for 1500 years since apostolic times. I've highlighted this in one of my previous responses, reproduced below. These doctrines were not 'corrupt' or 'contradictory to the bible'. It was clergy misrepresenting these doctrines or not living by them that was the problem. We should be censuring/removing these clergy, not changing the official teachings of the Church which were and remain 'uncorrupted' and certainly not contradictory to the bible in any way.
Previously posted by Omnia:
In my view, the reformers had every right to question church practices and speak out against abuses and corruption (and I would see it as the duty of every Christian to do so). But they had no right to change christian doctrines handed down from Jesus and the apostles which the Catholic Church has been teaching for 1500 years since apostolic times.I've said in my previous posts that in my view, the reformers failed to differentiate between corrupt clergy (there were quite a few) and corrupt doctrines contradictory to the bible (there were none). ....
There are greater checks nowadays on this problem simply because we are more educated (more of us can read for one thing) and have easy access (think internet) to the official teachings/doctrines of the Catholic Church (eg: The Catechism and other documents put out by the magisterium - pope and bishops in communion with him that form the teaching authority of the Church). We can (and should) double check what individual priests, catholic theologians etc teach with the teachings of the magisterium.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:btw, happy lunar new year everyone. =D
i just came from another catholic's house. on one corner, they put statues of Jesus, and on another corner, they put statues of chinese deities.
it's things like these which i doubt you all.
Happy New Year.
You should have casually asked them why they did that. Did they believe in these other deities in addition to Jesus ? Or did the deities perhaps belong to older folks living in the house who were not Christians ? Or were they souvenirs from vacations perhaps ?
If the Catholic did indeed believe in these other gods besides Jesus, then they were wrong and need to be better instructed in the faith.
Originally posted by Omnia:Happy New Year.
You should have casually asked them why they did that. Did they believe in these other deities in addition to Jesus ? Or did the deities perhaps belong to older folks living in the house who were not Christians ? Or were they souvenirs from vacations perhaps ?
If the Catholic did indeed believe in these other gods besides Jesus, then they were wrong and need to be better instructed in the faith.
it's not the first time i've seen a catholic housing other deities as "decoration". is this accepted in your teachings?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:it's not the first time i've seen a catholic housing other deities as "decoration". is this accepted in your teachings?
i am quite sure the answer will be that.... these are not church teachings but it's individuals who are corrupted..... and i am quite sure that this is the truth... however it does go to show that perhaps the strict catholic teachers may not have trickle downwards to casual believers....
Originally posted by Omnia:Not sure whether you read my previous response which I reproduce below.
Before, during and after the reformation, the official doctrines of the Catholic Church were sound and continue to be so. It was corrupted clergymen who either misrepresented these teachings for their own earthly gains or who did not live according to the sound doctrines they were preaching (thereby setting very bad examples for the faithful). These corrupt elements have since been excised and the Church continues to have to deal with such issues when they arise, as with any large earthly organisation.
ok there were corrupted clergymen who either misrepresented these teachings for their own earthly gains or who did not live according to the sound doctrines they were preaching (thereby setting very bad examples for the faithful).... so what does that translate to? corrupt doctrine lah..!!!
i did not say that the catholic church PURPOSELY corrupted doctrines, but that doctrines were corrupted.... hence there were doctrines wilfully corrupted by clergymen.
otherwise why these corrupt elements have since been excised and the Church continues to have to deal with such issues when they arise, as with any large earthly organisation. I did not say that the catholic church DID nothing to the corrupt doctrines taught....
and btw... no where am i also saying that protestant churches are innocent.... so hopefully nobody misread me here.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:doctrines were corrupted by corrupted clergy (or pastors, if you choose).... otherwise, what else can humans corrupt????
so if the catholic church have corrupt clergy, i am sure you have corrupt doctrines....
hmmmm misunderstanding? Wraped interpretations?
Corrupt clergy corrupt the Church (the people) and not the doctrines unless they changed / twisted them (the doctrine) .......
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i know i am saved.... Jesus saved me.... i do not take my salvation for granted.... because he first loved me i must loved others ---- simple enough for you?
and if you don't (love others) ? according to your church doctrine, that is to deny Christ right? if you agree, would you then also agree that denying Christ may cost one's salvation since you "do not take salvation for granted" ?
Also, nice to know from you that you believed that God loved you first. That means, God loved you even when you are not a Christian yet and the sames goes to non-Christians now. When these people do good, it is because God prompted them to do so and not satan. Now, it doesn't sound so impossible isn't it?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:By the way, can you help me fit and execute the salvation theory of faith leading to good works? Just a simple can or cannot.....
Actually, I would appreciate if you, dumbdumb or vince69 can help me explain how the theory works....
that one is saved by his true faith in Christ and the way to tell them apart (those with true faith in Christ and those who merely claimed) is by the fruits or their works.
yet, one is saved when they profess their faith (at that point, have no works as a result of the Holy Spirit's intervention yet) which means it is not true faith in Christ (not yet) ??
then, when one is saved (by faith that is not proven as true faith in Christ), is always saved? what happen when the faith is not there i.e. they just claimed and never really bother to follow Jesus's teaching? Those causal believers in your words maybe...
and by the way, I did not get answer on certainty of our salvation in hope.....yes or no?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:everyone who is in power, can be corrupted by it, the system didn't change from the past till the present, the check on authority is still unchanged isn't it?
corruption can (may even be) happen(ing) again.
Corruption may and can happen again no matter what is the check and balance system....if one wants to devaite, they will.....
No one can guaranttee that such things will never happen in their church (any church - Catholic, protestant, mega whatever) as they are administered by human....including the Pope.
So picking on the church based on history is your personal choice.....but if you can take a step back and learn to let go (of the past), things may not be that bad.
What really matters is what is the current state of affairs (of the church) and what you really want (in your life) and move on....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:btw, happy lunar new year everyone. =D
i just came from another catholic's house. on one corner, they put statues of Jesus, and on another corner, they put statues of chinese deities.
it's things like these which i doubt you all.
Gong Xi Fa Cai!
Actually, I visited a similar house before....in the hall was Chinese deities they worshipped but in one room, there was statues of Jesus because the person who stay in the room was Catholic, the other members were not.
In your case, I am not sure..... but it makes no difference to me. God is still God and God is not the statues or deities..... That, I am very sure....and I am sure for you too. So why bother?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
it's individuals who are corrupted..... and i am quite sure that this is the truth... however it does go to show that perhaps the strict catholic teachers may not have trickle downwards to casual believers....
I agree with you that it is individual who deviate (oops!), corrupt and these are casual believers (they still go to church, got baptised and called themselves believers of God - they all have professed their faith) .....i.e. these are likely those people who Jesus said will not enter into the Kindgom of Heaven even though they called Him Lord...Lord....
So, not all Christians (Catholics, protestants etc..) will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven but only true disciple i.e. those will listen and act on His words - faith proved by their works.
This is why I am still pluzzing on on professing of faith saved one and once saved, always saved. Can help to enlighten?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Gong Xi Fa Cai!
Actually, I visited a similar house before....in the hall was Chinese deities they worshipped but in one room, there was statues of Jesus because the person who stay in the room was Catholic, the other members were not.
In your case, I am not sure..... but it makes no difference to me. God is still God and God is not the statues or deities..... That, I am very sure....and I am sure for you too. So why bother?
about the statues of other gods as decoration?
you don't know why i feel so strongly about catholics displaying other gods as decorations?
why don't you warrent a guess?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Actually, I would appreciate if you, dumbdumb or vince69 can help me explain how the theory works....
that one is saved by his true faith in Christ and the way to tell them apart (those with true faith in Christ and those who merely claimed) is by the fruits or their works.
yet, one is saved when they profess their faith (at that point, have no works as a result of the Holy Spirit's intervention yet) which means it is not true faith in Christ (not yet) ??
then, when one is saved (by faith that is not proven as true faith in Christ), is always saved? what happen when the faith is not there i.e. they just claimed and never really bother to follow Jesus's teaching? Those causal believers in your words maybe...
and by the way, I did not get answer on certainty of our salvation in hope.....yes or no?
http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm
http://www.carm.org/questions/lose_salvation.htm
just woke up, too groggy to have a healthy discussion
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Corruption may and can happen again no matter what is the check and balance system....if one wants to devaite, they will.....
No one can guaranttee that such things will never happen in their church (any church - Catholic, protestant, mega whatever) as they are administered by human....including the Pope.
So picking on the church based on history is your personal choice.....but if you can take a step back and learn to let go (of the past), things may not be that bad.
What really matters is what is the current state of affairs (of the church) and what you really want (in your life) and move on....
lol except that protestants are usually more daring, while catholics can be blindfully obedient.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:about the statues of other gods as decoration?
you don't know why i feel so strongly about catholics displaying other gods as decorations?
why don't you warrent a guess?
Actually, we are not displaying God as decorations....
I guess you think statues etc...lead to idolatory......
But in actual fact, it is what you believed and know that matters. I am never concerned about statues etc...because it does not change the facts for me - that God is not a statue and we don't worship statues. It also does not change the fact that the Catholic Church do not teach or allow idolatory.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Actually, we are not displaying God as decorations....
I guess you think statues etc...lead to idolatory......
But in actual fact, it is what you believed and know that matters. I am never concerned about statues etc...because it does not change the facts for me - that God is not a statue and we don't worship statues. It also does not change the fact that the Catholic Church do not teach or allow idolatory.
i'm talking about the displaying of other gods as decoration, like fu lu shou etc? which i have seen in catholic households.
yeah, i do consider it idolatry la. catholics displaying statues of Christ etc. and set up altars for statues of mary.
but i'm talking about displaying fu lu shou as a decoration. do the catholic church endorse it?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:lol except that protestants are usually more daring, while catholics can be blindfully obedient.
I do not agree on "blindfully odedient" as no Catholics need to do so - certianly not to a Pope who teaches wayward stuff.
What really is "more daring" to you? Reformation is about being daring? I don't think so.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i'm talking about the displaying of other gods as decoration, like fu lu shou etc? which i have seen in catholic households
I am not sure if fu lu shou some kind of god? Really, I am not sure......
But if they display it as merely a display and not worhsipping it, I don't see real problems...
What I saw is really worshipping the deity with joss sticks, candles etc....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
yeah, i do consider it idolatry la. catholics displaying statues of Christ etc. and set up altars for statues of mary.
That's because you want to believe that it is so...... but you and I know that God is not statues.
I have explained to you a few times before....if you cannot accept, you will not.