faith & works
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Originally posted by Omnia:
In case anyone gets the wrong idea, a person who is 'excommunicated' by the Catholic Church is not 'eternally cursed'. He is 'excluded from the communion', meaning that his status before the Church is that of a stranger and he may not participate in public worship nor receive the Body of Christ or any sacraments.
This is the most serious penalty that the Church can impose, and thus used only for very grave offences, with the objective that the person would repent and return to be in communion once again.
We read about excommunication in Matthew 18:17, "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican".
you may be wrong in this case.
read this:
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
- That's what I meant. it's not works which saved her, it's faith. simple, uncomplicated, no strings attached faith.
And I agree with you. It was faith that gave her initial justification and salvation. The works bit comes later when it is required to keep her faith alive in order for her to ultimately reach the kingdom of heaven.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:- And with this faith she had, it drives her to do good works, to love others and to love God. It comes naturally in time. Everyone falls away at times. King David fell and sinned, but God calls him a man after His own heart, Abraham lied to others to protect himself, but God calls him a man of faith. Paul, one of the fiercest preachers in his days, struggled and proclaimed that he does what he knows he should not do, and does not do what he knows is right to do. Works can never be quantified and used as a measure of salvation. God does the saving, all of it. Our works reflect our salvation (which is a slow life-long process)
All these folks turned back to God (repented) after they fell into sin. If they did not, they might not have ended up in heaven regardless of any justification they had received from God in the past.
Works can never be quantified and used as a measure of salvation ? Agreed if you're talking about benchmarks and passing marks.
God does the saving, all of it ? Agreed but he needs our cooperation.
Our works reflect our salvation (which is a slow life-long process) ? Agreed.All these do not change what I'm saying, which is that initial justification and salvation (which is by the grace of God through faith) does not guarantee that one would subsequently cooperate with God's graces with one's works (doing good and not doing bad, ie: not sinning) which is necessary for one's passage to heaven.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:tell smarty boy that. and.. i wish someone would tell my gf that.
I would appreciate it then that you do not attribute such assertions to me. It misleads the reader.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Mary too leads folks to Christ. Know her and you will very quickly come to know her son, Jesus Christ.That's a really bad excuse u know..
It may seem so to you but not to me. God reaches out to individuals in all sorts of ways, including through others. So if someone, say, is curious or inspired by Mary's obedience to the Lord and subsequently comes to know Jesus and becomes a Christian, I would say Alleluia !
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Unfortunately, all catholics hold what the pope says as unfallable. You do not question what the pope says, accepting in faith that what he says is what God wants him to say.I wish that catholics will dare to question, when times of dubious teachings rises. Question is, would u dare to rise and question if this happened? and what can you do to question effectively?
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The Word of God isn't enough as an ultimate authority? The reformation occurred because there were thinking people who compared the corrupted teachings of the catholic church with the words of the bible. It was the "ultimate living authority of the pope" which failed and corruption ran rampant, not the unchanging authority of the bible.
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Again, what I meant by allowing the pope to be the final authority instead of the unchanging truth of the bible. When you believe that someone's words is infallable, you will not think to question it, unless you yourself know what Jesus said. If more people knew that Jesus taught to offer the other cheek, and realised that the pope at that time taught something which contradicted this unchanging truth, would there be a crusade then? That's why the pope cannot be the final authority. He can teach, and preach and share. but ultimately, everyone must compare whatever that is being taught by man, to what the bible teaches and see if it's contradicting. That's what martin luthur did. and was so nearly killed by the catholic church for it. That's the corruption which happened once, and can happen again, if there is no check on authority and power.
That is why it is very important to understand when the pope is infallible and when he is not. Let me explain again.
When the pope teaches on matters of faith and morals to the whole church in his official capacity as Christ's representative on earth, Catholics do (and should) hold what he teaches to be infallible because we believe that the Holy Spirit prevents him from teaching error under those circumstances. And these teachings would not contradict the bible which is the inerrant word of God. But the pope is certainly not the final authority on the stock market, on cross-border relations between countries, on dietary best practices and what have you.
Does the believe in the pope's gift of teaching infallibility sound stupid ? Consider the alternative.
If someone wants to know the truth, what is he to do ? You would probably tell him to read the bible, the word of God (which all of us should do) and interpret it for himself. But how does he know his interpretation is correct ? The bible wasn't even written in English. Check with a pastor maybe ? But which one ? Every protestant pastor is teaching his/her brand of christianity, often times contradictory, and each one holding what he/she teaches to be the 'truth', based strictly on the bible and nothing else. Heck, if that person does not fully agree with any pastor out there, he may even decide to start a new church and teach what he thinks is the truth, again supposedly based on the word of God and the unchanging authority of the bible. Is this what God would have wanted ?
And correction, the teachings of the Catholic Church were in no way corrupt during the reformation, nor contradictory to the bible. It was some of the clergy who were corrupt.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Your article concludes that ... a Catholic anathema is not a pronouncement of damnation (separation from Christ) but a declaration that an individual is excluded from the fellowship of the Roman Catholic church which includes denial of Communion and the Catholic sacraments. ... it means that the person is not in right standing with their church, is not to take the sacraments, and might be under discipline. It is an excommunication and at the very least a very strong condemnation of the person's actions and/or beliefs as being against the Catholic Church.
It appears to be in line with what I was saying. I just wanted to make sure readers do not think that an excommunication is some sort of vodoo curse or something that the Church places on people
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Maybe this link is better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication.
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Hi dumbdumb, Thanks very much for sharing your answers with us. However i think u have misunderstood the unconditional grace of Hashem.
Originally posted by dumbdumb:
There must be death to pay for the consequence of sin.
i think there is some misunderstanding here. Let me quote examples from the OT to illustrate the unconditional grace of Hashem. King David has commited murder and adultry etc, under the Law of Moses he deserve the death penalty.
'Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12:9 NASB
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD " And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 2 Samuel 12:13 NASB.
"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:21 NASB
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? Ezekiel 18:23 NASB.
God introduced the sin offering, and every year, the children of israel will gather, and the priest will lay his hand on the sin offering - a lamb/goat/sheep?, which is to be perfect and unblemished to symbolize the transference of their sins onto the sin offering, and the goodness and perfectness of the lamb will be transfered onto the children of israel. that will cover their sins for 1 year. The priest will then kill the lamb, and enter the Temple, and Holy of holies to worship i think. if the priest did not follow procedure to the letter, or is unclean in thought, he will be struck down by God, and israel will not be covered for a year. That is the old covenent - do good, get good, do bad, get beat.
There is also some misunderstanding on the Law of sin offerings. During the two temples period, sin offering is for isrealite who has committed unintentional sins not intentional sins. There is no offerings for atonement for deliberate & intentional sins, only by grace of Hashem.
"Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'If a person sins unintentionally in any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and commits any of them,
if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD a bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. Leviticus 4:2-3 NASB.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i cannot comment why and how a person turns to catholism.... whatever i say is based on what i see in protestant churches...."for God so loved the world... that whosoever believe in Him shall have eternal life"
"come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
"my yoke is light...."
etc etc....
this is what normally happens in an evangelistic rally.... by and large, such messsages are quite common...
it appeals to those who are in need, those who are in pain, and those who are sorrow...
down the line.... on the assumption of the view of faith and works, a convert now suddenly come across the "teaching" that works is needed for his salvation.... somehow, it seems to be me the individual did not read the fine print....
On this point - I sincerely hoped that you did not mean it when you said "if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless)". from the stand point of KNOWING FOR OURSELVES, if we attained salvation, if we cannot quantify how much and what good works are done... it becomes pointless to be embroiled in such a discussion.... because for all that we can say, we will conclude that only God knows the heart, and that being the case, all discussion becomes futile.
You certainly did not comment why one becomes a Catholic but your underlying theme is that we are cheated to go to Christ and later realised that we are not saved until we do good works. Thus the fine print thing that you creatively invented and it is NOT TRUE for Catholics!
I am sure that you know to convert into Catholic faith it takes some time as RCIA goes from 10 - 18 months before one is baptised or confirmed (in case you don't know, now you do). So, there is no fine print issue for Catholics.
We know that we are saved by God by His grace and we need to have faith and co-operate with Christ so that He can saved us. How can we claimed to have faith in Christ if we do not strive to be His true disciple? i.e. to listen to His commandment and act on them? I am sure you know His commandment and we do not differ on views on that.
The theme of the Catholic Church is always on God's love for us and the need to love your neighbour. Good works thus is part of Christian way of life and is what Christianity is about. We are taught that the way to reach out to others is to show love and this can help others feel and be touched by God's love. God manifest Himself through us by our deeds to others.
So, by living our life as true Christian / true disciple of Christ, we prove that God is in us and that the holy spirit is in us helping us to be as Christ like as possible. This is only possible when we have FAITH and with lots of prayers to God.
Thus, it is by my works that I show you my faith. And it is this true faith in Christ (one that has fruits / good works) that will save us. We refer to the last judgement in Mathew where Jesus teaches us what He will be asking us on that day. To me it is all about love and charity....did you do it to the least of one of your brothers and sister?
In hope we are saved and salvation for us is certain and I do not want to repeat bible quote here. And salvation is by faith and works is never covered up to anyone who wish to turn to the Catholic faith.
Seems like it is still you who missed the fine print thus your avoidiance to answer if anyone who deny Christ can consider himself as having faith in Him. Your church's doctrine has that didn't it?
There is no need to quantify and measure works in the first place. You are the one who keep making this as a point which I agree with you is pointless....but I read your earlier comments to be as doing good work if cannot be measured or quantify is pointless. Of course, now you change words ......again. It's ok as I know what is your new pointless means.
God knows the heart (which is true) does not make discussion here pointless because both our salvation theory have works in it. Now, I am trying to understand the application of your theory (since you claimed to agree with dumbdumb's).....but vince69 and dumbdumb did not come back. Perhaps you can help?
By the way, is salvation in hope now still means it is not certain to you? Or have you changed your opinions....???
Turning to God will not make all our suffering, pain or sorrow goes away....we still need to carry our cross to follow Him.....but we do find comfort in Christ and we know He will be with us all the time until we meet Him.
One question, why is Jesus yoke lighter?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
tell smarty boy that. and.. i wish someone would tell my gf that.
I think you misunderstood me because I throw the question back to you....why would a sane person reject Christ? (something along that line) but I did not get a reply from you.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Again, what I meant by allowing the pope to be the final authority instead of the unchanging truth of the bible. When you believe that someone's words is infallable, you will not think to question it, unless you yourself know what Jesus said. If more people knew that Jesus taught to offer the other cheek, and realised that the pope at that time taught something which contradicted this unchanging truth, would there be a crusade then? That's why the pope cannot be the final authority. He can teach, and preach and share. but ultimately, everyone must compare whatever that is being taught by man, to what the bible teaches and see if it's contradicting. That's what martin luthur did. and was so nearly killed by the catholic church for it. That's the corruption which happened once, and can happen again, if there is no check on authority and power.
What is the unchanging truth of the bible to you? Everyone has a different version now and more versions are coming.......
For us the unchanging truth is the version that the Church teaches us. Again, why I told you before that if we want to embrace, embrace wholeheartedly. When someone said that what we are taught is not right, we check and asked for clarifications....If one is convinced that what their Church teaches is wrong, one can choose to fight that or leave.....
I don't think that no one will ask question if the Pope tecahes something that is not in line with the Church's doctrine that is not based on our understanding of the bible.
Again, none ever said that the Pope did not make mistakes in the past, but that's the past. If you are saying that reformation is justified because of that, it's ok.
The Pope will continue to lead the Church but his teaching is not based on his own personal liking....it is based on the Church's doctrine. Someone has to lead your Church and someone has to make a final decision......that happens in your church too isn't it?
But does the Pope makes decision on his own ?? Are there no check and balance??
Will it happen again? Only God will know....
As for Martin Luther story, I see your point. There are always 2 sides to a coin. Think about it this way, when a marriage become tough, what should we do? Walk out?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
- And with this faith she had, it drives her to do good works, to love others and to love God. It comes naturally in time. Everyone falls away at times. King David fell and sinned, but God calls him a man after His own heart, Abraham lied to others to protect himself, but God calls him a man of faith. Paul, one of the fiercest preachers in his days, struggled and proclaimed that he does what he knows he should not do, and does not do what he knows is right to do. Works can never be quantified and used as a measure of salvation. God does the saving, all of it. Our works reflect our salvation (which is a slow life-long process)
Yes, I think that's where the difference in views comes about.
We believed that it is the entrire process that you mentioned that is what Omnia said is a process. Along the way, we fall short but will not loose our salvation if at the end, we can prove our true faith in Christ with our good works. Remember that we agree that good works should come from the heart and not trying to measure and quantify them.
At the end, I think we will agree if I said that we should see transformation into a true Christian life - one that is inspired and led by the Holy Spirit. Works that id done from the heart. And we need to know that we can never be perfect and sinless but that's not reason we don't try.
What about those who feel that they are "saved" already and that they do mininal....and those who do sometime because it is ok to deviate.....those who get hair splitting moments trying to do or those who "prefer to leave things to God" because only He can handle etc.... Or in general, people who claimed to have faith and yet not totally converted in their hearts.
Perhaps, this group will loose their salvation when they turn up on the last day with their works or lack of it (those done with the heart) ?
To us, salvation is a process and if we cannot prove our faith with works in the end, we may loose our salvation and thus salvation is by faith and works.
For you, you have already been "saved" (in which I quote Paul as saying salavtion in hope) and your life after that proved your salvation which is by the works you do.
In simple conclusion, only true faith will drive you to do good works from your heart.
And how to we know if one has true faith? Take Abraham for example, he was saved by faith. But how did the bible tell us that he has faith in God? By telling us that he listen to God and even willing to sacrifices his son! I think that's the message that Paul and James put together for us (in my opinion). And to me faith and good works cannot be separated because it is by works that we prove that faith is true and only true faith saved.
So, question now is when can one be considered saved? At the begining or at the end?
Can one (those who claimed to have and profess their faith and yet was not true) looses it along the way? If so, it means that they ahve been saved (when their professed their faith) and loose it when they have no works to show?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
I think you misunderstood me because I throw the question back to you....why would a sane person reject Christ? (something along that line) but I did not get a reply from you.
if you've done evangelism before, you know that sane people do reject Christ for many reasons. The reasons I usually see from my own experience is: prefer to be self reliant, quite fervent in another religion, afraid to offend their own gods.
and usually they only turn to Jesus when things in their lives start going wrong
the bible says..
John 3:18-20 (New International Version)
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[a] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
this is quite true, no?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Yes, I think that's where the difference in views comes about.
We believed that it is the entrire process that you mentioned that is what Omnia said is a process. Along the way, we fall short but will not loose our salvation if at the end, we can prove our true faith in Christ with our good works. Remember that we agree that good works should come from the heart and not trying to measure and quantify them.
At the end, I think we will agree if I said that we should see transformation into a true Christian life - one that is inspired and led by the Holy Spirit. Works that id done from the heart. And we need to know that we can never be perfect and sinless but that's not reason we don't try.
What about those who feel that they are "saved" already and that they do mininal....and those who do sometime because it is ok to deviate.....those who get hair splitting moments trying to do or those who "prefer to leave things to God" because only He can handle etc.... Or in general, people who claimed to have faith and yet not totally converted in their hearts.
Perhaps, this group will loose their salvation when they turn up on the last day with their works or lack of it (those done with the heart) ?
To us, salvation is a process and if we cannot prove our faith with works in the end, we may loose our salvation and thus salvation is by faith and works.
For you, you have already been "saved" (in which I quote Paul as saying salavtion in hope) and your life after that proved your salvation which is by the works you do.
In simple conclusion, only true faith will drive you to do good works from your heart.
And how to we know if one has true faith? Take Abraham for example, he was saved by faith. But how did the bible tell us that he has faith in God? By telling us that he listen to God and even willing to sacrifices his son! I think that's the message that Paul and James put together for us (in my opinion). And to me faith and good works cannot be separated because it is by works that we prove that faith is true and only true faith saved.
So, question now is when can one be considered saved? At the begining or at the end?
Can one (those who claimed to have and profess their faith and yet was not true) looses it along the way? If so, it means that they ahve been saved (when their professed their faith) and loose it when they have no works to show?
Abraham believed God, and that credited to him as righteousness. But along the way, Abraham also showed many signs of disbelief and lack of faith. but from that moment Abraham believed in God, in that one decision, God credited it to him as righteousness, and his many times of falling in faith, didn't change God's perspective of him.
if works was meant to be quantified and used as a measure, Abraham would have failed, since i believe there was more times where he failed to believe, than when he believed. from lying about his wife, from sleeping with his maidservant etc.
i say salvation is at the beginning. you're fully covered by the blood covanant of Jesus.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
What is the unchanging truth of the bible to you? Everyone has a different version now and more versions are coming.......
For us the unchanging truth is the version that the Church teaches us. Again, why I told you before that if we want to embrace, embrace wholeheartedly. When someone said that what we are taught is not right, we check and asked for clarifications....If one is convinced that what their Church teaches is wrong, one can choose to fight that or leave.....
I don't think that no one will ask question if the Pope tecahes something that is not in line with the Church's doctrine that is not based on our understanding of the bible.
Again, none ever said that the Pope did not make mistakes in the past, but that's the past. If you are saying that reformation is justified because of that, it's ok.
The Pope will continue to lead the Church but his teaching is not based on his own personal liking....it is based on the Church's doctrine. Someone has to lead your Church and someone has to make a final decision......that happens in your church too isn't it?
But does the Pope makes decision on his own ?? Are there no check and balance??
Will it happen again? Only God will know....
As for Martin Luther story, I see your point. There are always 2 sides to a coin. Think about it this way, when a marriage become tough, what should we do? Walk out?
from history, we have seen that nobody questioned the pope's final words on any matter, except during the reformation (and like i said, they were nearly killed for "heresy")
if the pope has said something wrong, there is no way for you to speak up, judging from the current hierachy. the most you can do is tell your priest, who will probably just listen and forget about it. you can only walk out if the teachings disturb you enough. (that's what i do during church actually, if i hear something that isn't what the bible says)
but at least these are thinking people, and do not just swallow everything someone says. i'm not sure if you listen to homlies - my gf sometimes doze off during the most impt part of the mass (to me it's the homly, although i believe every part of the service is important, worship, communion, sermon, and prayer)
what can you do, when the pope starts teaching dubious teachings?
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Hi dumbdumb, Thanks very much for sharing your answers with us. However i think u have misunderstood the unconditional grace of Hashem.
i think there is some misunderstanding here. Let me quote examples from the OT to illustrate the unconditional grace of Hashem. King David has commited murder and adultry etc, under the Law of Moses he deserve the death penalty.
'Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12:9 NASB
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD " And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 2 Samuel 12:13 NASB.
"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:21 NASB
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? Ezekiel 18:23 NASB.
There is also some misunderstanding on the Law of sin offerings. During the two temples period, sin offering is for isrealite who has committed unintentional sins not intentional sins. There is no offerings for atonement for deliberate & intentional sins, only by grace of Hashem.
"Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'If a person sins unintentionally in any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and commits any of them,
if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD a bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. Leviticus 4:2-3 NASB.
Hi.
God is unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever. He loves us, and does not want us to die. This fact about God is unchanging. The same we see in Jesus. But when king david sin, God's grace on David prevented God from killing him, but David's son died - God's holiness is kept.
When there is sin, there must be death to pay for it. Unconditional grace only applies to us, because we are in the new convanent, where Jesus paid for our sins with his death. There is still death to pay for our sins, therefore we enjoy unconditional grace, which is actually not unconditional at all, if you look at it carefully. Jesus' death was the condition for grace.
your quote in ezekiel, you'll notice that God demands that a sinner repents and obey ALL the commandments, which is impossible. Remember, Jesus said, the moment you look at a woman in lust, you have commited adultary, the moment you are angry at someone, you have commited murder. A sinner, remains a sinner, therefore there is always a need for a sin offering.
with regards to the sin offering,
i remember reading that a priest will wear a rope and bell while performing his duties, in case he gets struck down. and the provision of the bull for the priest is only if he KNEW that he sinned. if he didn't know, and cleansed himself before performing his duties he would have been struck down, and the community would suffer.
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Originally posted by Dumbdumb,
But when king david sin, God's grace on David prevented God from killing him, but David's son died - God's holiness is kept.
Hi, Dumb dumb, the reason why King David's unborn son has to die is explained in this verse.
"However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die." 2 Samuel 12:14 NASB
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Hi, Dumb dumb, the reason why King David's unborn son has to die is explained in this verse.
"However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die." 2 Samuel 12:14 NASB
erm, yeah, he commited a sin, which allowed his enemies to blaspheme, and his son died.
i am not too sure that if his enemies didn't blaspheme, God wouldn't hv taken his son
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Originally posted by Dumbdumb:
erm, yeah, he commited a sin, which allowed his enemies to blaspheme, and his son died.
i am not too sure that if his enemies didn't blaspheme, God wouldn't hv taken his son
Hi, Dumbdumb,as a believer, i dun think it is wise to doubt Hashem's scriptures.
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Hi, Dumbdumb,as a believer, i dun think it is wise to doubt Hashem's scriptures.
it's precisely that you see.. God's law demands death for sin.
david sinned, and death must come to pay for it.
there isn't really an "unconditional" grace. for christians now, of the new covanent, our "unconditional" grace, is actually still conditional - where death must pay for sins (that's why Jesus had to die for our sins)
so logically, death must come, maybe atone through the sin offering? God can't just blot out and ignore sin, because of His righteousness.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb:
it's precisely that you see.. God's law demands death for sin.
david sinned, and death must come to pay for it.
Hi dumbdumb, please do believe that Hashem always temper justice with mercy, in his judgement. As illustrated in the case of King David & Cain.
Here is another illustration; after Cain had murdered his brother Abel:
"Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold " And the LORD appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him Genesis 4:14-15 NASB.
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Hi dumbdumb, please do believe that Hashem always temper justice with mercy, in his judgement. As illustrated in the case of King David & Cain.
Here is another illustration; after Cain had murdered his brother Abel:
"Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold " And the LORD appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him Genesis 4:14-15 NASB.
hmm... well.. i'll definitely read up more to understand more then. =) thanks for ur pointers
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Originally posted by dumbdumb:
so logically, death must come, maybe atone through the sin offering? God can't just blot out and ignore sin, because of His righteousness.
Hi dumbdumb, Please let me explain the some of the offerings in the Law of Moses. (Please do check my explaination against your bible, for i am only human).
The Sin Offering:
Sins offering is meant for Isrealites who unintentionally sins against G-d. i.e He is unaware that he has committed sin. Only after which the sin which he has committed is made known to him that he will then make a sin offering to G-d, for atonement for his sin.
'Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty,
if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed.
'He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. Leviticus 4:27-29 NASB
If the sin commited is intentional, there is no offering for atonement for this intentional sin. Any forgiveness by Hashem is purely by grace.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
from history, we have seen that nobody questioned the pope's final words on any matter, except during the reformation (and like i said, they were nearly killed for "heresy")
if the pope has said something wrong, there is no way for you to speak up, judging from the current hierachy. the most you can do is tell your priest, who will probably just listen and forget about it. you can only walk out if the teachings disturb you enough. (that's what i do during church actually, if i hear something that isn't what the bible says)
but at least these are thinking people, and do not just swallow everything someone says. i'm not sure if you listen to homlies - my gf sometimes doze off during the most impt part of the mass (to me it's the homly, although i believe every part of the service is important, worship, communion, sermon, and prayer)
what can you do, when the pope starts teaching dubious teachings?
In my view, the reformers had every right to question church practices and speak out against abuses and corruption (and I would see it as the duty of every Christian to do so). But they had no right to change christian doctrines handed down from Jesus and the apostles which the Catholic Church has been teaching for 1500 years since apostolic times.
I've said in my previous posts that in my view, the reformers failed to differentiate between corrupt clergy (there were quite a few) and corrupt doctrines contradictory to the bible (there were none). The result is now a mess in protestant christianity where every pastor is teaching his/her own brand of 'truth'.
When the pope teaches something that we think is dubious, we have to ascertain whether it is a matter concerning faith and morals meant officially to be believed by the whole Church. If it is not (eg: his views about President Bush or his private speculations about certain doctrinal matters etc), then we can disregard. But if it is, then we need to humble ourselves to accept the teachings because Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit prevents the pope from teaching error under those circumstances.
You mentioned that you walk out of church when you hear something that isn't what the bible says. I would like to make a small insertion. You walk out when you hear something that based on your own interpretation and beliefs, isn't what the bible says. And for the benefit of readers, the most important part of a Catholic Mass is Holy Communion, which is not to say of course that your gf should be sleeping during the homily
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Originally posted by Omnia:
I've said in my previous posts that in my view, the reformers failed to differentiate between corrupt clergy (there were quite a few) and corrupt doctrines contradictory to the bible (there were none). The result is now a mess in protestant christianity where every pastor is teaching his/her own brand of 'truth'.
doctrines were corrupted by corrupted clergy (or pastors, if you choose).... otherwise, what else can humans corrupt????
so if the catholic church have corrupt clergy, i am sure you have corrupt doctrines....
seriously, sometimes i find it quite, hilarious as how catholics attempt to paint your church as incorruptible... and how you guys are attempting defend your church as being perfect.
your statement on the "mess in protestant christianity where every pastor is teaching his/her own brand of 'truth'." is dubious at best and contentious at worst....
dubious because for every human who runs a religious organisation, there will be bad practices and...
contentious because you guys keep painting a picture that the protestant churches are in a mess and that the catholic church is not.
i am not at all defending that protestant churches are the best... there are some that are really dodgy...
but i really don't see the purpose of such a one-up-manship kind of post, which if unchecked will lead to all kinds of flamming war.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
doctrines were corrupted by corrupted clergy (or pastors, if you choose).... otherwise, what else can humans corrupt????
so if the catholic church have corrupt clergy, i am sure you have corrupt doctrines....
seriously, sometimes i find it quite, hilarious as how catholics attempt to paint your church as incorruptible... and how you guys are attempting defend your church as being perfect.
I should clarify that when I mention corrupt clergymen, I mean clergymen who do not live according to Church teachings (ie: not 'practise what they preach') or deliberately misrepresent official teachings for their own earthly gains. They are certainly a disgrace and should be censured. But this in no way means that the official teachings of the Catholic Church were 'corrupt' or 'contradictory to the bible' at the time of the reformation, which they weren't.
Let me say this unequivocally. The Catholic Church, as with any earthly entity, is made up of human beings subject to sin, including the pope. No where did I make the assertion that the Catholic Church is perfect or incorruptible. What I did say was that Catholics believe that God has given the pope (and the bishops in communion with him) the gift of teaching infallibility (not character impeccability) under certain conditions. Which is why (in answer to dumbdumb!) Catholics do not have the option of rejecting official Church teachings, nor should they, since the belief is that the Holy Spirit has prevented the teaching of error.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:your statement on the "mess in protestant christianity where every pastor is teaching his/her own brand of 'truth'." is dubious at best and contentious at worst....
dubious because for every human who runs a religious organisation, there will be bad practices and...
contentious because you guys keep painting a picture that the protestant churches are in a mess and that the catholic church is not.
i am not at all defending that protestant churches are the best... there are some that are really dodgy...
but i really don't see the purpose of such a one-up-manship kind of post, which if unchecked will lead to all kinds of flamming war.
By mess, I mean the differing and sometimes contradictory doctrines held by different protestant churches, all purported to be the truth. For someone seeking the truth, this would be confusing at best and a turn-off at worst.
My point is not whether there are bad apples amongst protestant churches. My point is that the whole protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura ("bible alone") that arose from the reformation sounds good but is simply unworkable in allowing anyone to know the truth. So we should not be too quick to think that all we need is the bible (which is important and should be read) to know the truths of the Christian faith.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
if you've done evangelism before, you know that sane people do reject Christ for many reasons. The reasons I usually see from my own experience is: prefer to be self reliant, quite fervent in another religion, afraid to offend their own gods.
and usually they only turn to Jesus when things in their lives start going wrong
the bible says..
John 3:18-20 (New International Version)
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[a] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
this is quite true, no?
The question is how are evangelism done? Is it good news that others are hearing or bad news? Have we wondered why some people are "very scared" when we talk about God? Could something be wrong with us (as Christians) and our behaviour and talks? Maybe?
As for the bible quote, I agee that it is true and it boils down to whoever believes and what is believes for you? Saying you believed or living a life based on what you believed in your heart.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Abraham believed God, and that credited to him as righteousness. But along the way, Abraham also showed many signs of disbelief and lack of faith. but from that moment Abraham believed in God, in that one decision, God credited it to him as righteousness, and his many times of falling in faith, didn't change God's perspective of him.
if works was meant to be quantified and used as a measure, Abraham would have failed, since i believe there was more times where he failed to believe, than when he believed. from lying about his wife, from sleeping with his maidservant etc.
i say salvation is at the beginning. you're fully covered by the blood covanant of Jesus.
I think in a earlier post, I did mentioned about this. We will fall short along the way but God will judge us on the last day. Did we show up with works (done from our heart) that are proof of faith (true faith in Christ)?
Works are not meant to quantify and to measure but as a proof of our faith. I think vince69 also said that it is works that will tell us apart - those with true faith in Christ and those who merely claimed to have faith.
It seems like Paul is saying salvation is a process and at the begining, we are saved in hope (not actually saved yet) and with this hope, we should live our life as Christians (as what the Lord teaches and command us to do) and it is this hope that will drive us and motivate us to live that life. At the end, when we do our best, we can have trust that God will do His best. Salvation is certain for all who live their lifes as true Christians doing His commadments even though there are times when we will fall short. But it is the heart that counts.
From history, there are people who have stood up to what is right and nurse the Church "back into shape" so as to speak. Not allowing a few corrupt person to destroy the Church.