Originally posted by dumbdumb!:I think the key word is "claim"Jesus says: John 15:5 (New International Version)5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." salvation comes when we're already abiding in Him. then the fruit bearing comes. a person can claim that he is already abiding, even though he's not.
And every branch that bears no fruit is taken away. The passage talks about branches (folks) that were once part of the vine (not 'claiming' to be a part of the vine but actually were) that would be cut off and burned if they do not bear fruit.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
kinda.. can't get any clearer than this really. either you accept this truth, or you deny it?
in james, the verse is -
James 2:14 (New International Version)
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?a man CAN claim to have faith, even though in reality he doesn't. his faith will open his eyes to his consciousness of sins, he doesn't feel comfortable when he sins, he feels regret if he doesn't read the bible etc. he tries to do what is right because his faith leads him to do it.but anyone can just claim they have faith, whether they really do, can be seen by their lives. a person who has faith, loves Jesus, loves talking about Jesus, loves sharing about Jesus and His goodness. There's passion, there's fire, there's conviction....
There were folks in the time of St. Paul who boasted how well they kept the works of the Mosaic Law which they believed to be the sole source of their salvation. St Paul is speaking against these 'works of the Law' rather than good works.
But even if St Paul was indeed referring to good works in Ephesians 2:8-9 (and that's a big if), there is no conflict with the Catholic position. I keep stressing that justification and salvation is an ongoing process rather than a one time event. It is indeed faith and not good works that first allows us to 'accept Jesus' through the grace of God but the story continues. After initial justification, it also depends on what we do (whether good works or falling into sin) that determines whether we ultimately make it to heaven. We must continue to exercise our faith and works till the end of our lives in order to be saved.
If we understand this, then passages like James Chapter 2, the parable of the separation of sheep and goats based on works done (Mat 25:31-46) and being cut off from the vine (John 15:1-10) suddenly begins to fit and make very good sense.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i read the bible and decide for myself logically with what is written. that's the difference in my conviction and yours. ... but hey, can't blame, when you all believe that only the church leader is the only person who is trusted to be able to interpret the bible correctly.
Sola scriptura sounds very nice but the result you get are hundreds if not thousands of protestant churches and pastors preaching contradictory messages and 'truths', all supposedly based on the same bible and led by the same Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by Omnia:How all this works out is that after we become Christians, we have to continually strive to keep our faith, to do good works and to avoid sin (to repent when we do fall into sin), all through the grace of God, if we want to enter heaven one day. Justification and salvation is a process that carries on until we stand before God at judgement.
When we talk about bearing fruit, doing good works, avoiding sin; it is not a one time thing, eg: do one good work and you're set for heaven. There is no good works 'passing mark' because we need to keep at it till we leave this world. Does this mean that we have no absolute assurance of salvation ? Yup. We can all have confident hope (if we do as mentioned in the above para) but not certitude of salvation. We need to heed the words of St Paul to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12).
i really don't disagree with your points with the exception that for whatever "hope" you say... such a premise excludes the certainity of salvation - because it is a "process".... a process is deemed finished only if the owner of the process says so... that being God. So the new reality is our salvation seems less assured because of the "fine prints" that exists in the "contract"....
we all can argue one way or another.... but to me it's just technicality because the need to know that "good works is part of salvation" is not factored in....
and many of us do good works anyway.... and that there is no passing mark....
and that it remains a process.... and we don't know until we make our maker if we passed....
so just continue living and doing good works....
Orginally posted by Chin Eng:
and many of us do good works anyway.... and that there is no passing mark....
and that it remains a process.... and we don't know until we make our maker if we passed....
In the Tanakh, there are 2 confirmed names in the book written by Hashem.
They are Moses & Daniel.
Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves.
"But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!"
The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. Exodus 32:31-33 NASB
But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age. Daniel 12:13 NASB
Originally posted by vince69:Faith in Christ means by the finished and completed works of Christ I am saved.
Faith in Man means by my own works, I am saved (ie. I don't need Jesus Christ).
cheers
So, I have gotten things right this time round right?
Ok, help me with a few more things so that I can understand better.
1. At which point you are saved? When you professed your faith?
2. If at the point of professing faith, then does it means once saved always saved?
As for the faith in man statement, I understand and agree with you.
God bless...
Originally posted by Omnia:And every branch that bears no fruit is taken away. The passage talks about branches (folks) that were once part of the vine (not 'claiming' to be a part of the vine but actually were) that would be cut off and burned if they do not bear fruit.
There were folks in the time of St. Paul who boasted how well they kept the works of the Mosaic Law which they believed to be the sole source of their salvation. St Paul is speaking against these 'works of the Law' rather than good works.
But even if St Paul was indeed referring to good works in Ephesians 2:8-9 (and that's a big if), there is no conflict with the Catholic position. I keep stressing that justification and salvation is an ongoing process rather than a one time event. It is indeed faith and not good works that first allows us to 'accept Jesus' through the grace of God but the story continues. After initial justification, it also depends on what we do (whether good works or falling into sin) that determines whether we ultimately make it to heaven. We must continue to exercise our faith and works till the end of our lives in order to be saved.
If we understand this, then passages like James Chapter 2, the parable of the separation of sheep and goats based on works done (Mat 25:31-46) and being cut off from the vine (John 15:1-10) suddenly begins to fit and make very good sense.
Sola scriptura sounds very nice but the result you get are hundreds if not thousands of protestant churches and pastors preaching contradictory messages and 'truths', all supposedly based on the same bible and led by the same Holy Spirit.
and if you believe that it is faith in Jesus which starts off everything, but yet you say that someone who has rejected Jesus' salvation can depend on his good works.
that's not right either. and i still want to know, do you feel that the prostitute has salvation the moment she believes in her heart or does she earn salvation after wiping Jesus' feet with her tears and hair?
sola scriptura is certainly nice, because so far, smarty boy kept refering to the catholic encyclopedia. so are the saying of the pope inspired by the spirit, because some stuff are a little off. that's what really cheese me off, when i see bumper sticker of mary with the slogan "do you know her?", when you could put a bumper sticker of Christ. i just feel that, everything is done with the wrong piority. ppl refer to words of man, rather than the word of God, they want to introduce mary to others first, before introducing Christ
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:sola scriptura is certainly nice, because so far, smarty boy kept refering to the catholic encyclopedia. so are the saying of the pope inspired by the spirit, because some stuff are a little off.
Dumbdumb, I did not always refer to the Catholic encyclopedia hor....... don't drag me in.
And I did not understand your statement of "pope inspired by the spirit, because some stuff are a little off"....
But I suggest that you get this off your mind - the Pope is not our Church and our Church is not about the Pope..... It's about God and the Pope is the leader of the Church. Just like some others with protestant churches with bishop etc.... It is not the same as mega churches where the pastor's word or interpretation is taken as truth.
Ok....I just read your edited post after replying.....
The sticker that cheese you off obviously is from Novena Church. The funcion of the Novena Church is perpetual Novena and the order of the priests there is to make Mother Mary known....Not because she is more important than Jesus but because she has helped and is still helping many people around the world. At Novena service, although it is a devotion to Mary, the focus is still on God. You just need to know what is said and done. Mary cannot do anything except pray with us and for us. Everything is granted by God.
The job of making Jesus know is the responsility of all of us. We have only 1 Novena Church out of all the Churches we have......
I can understand where you are coming from and why not promote Christ directly. They do and it's up to you to believe and understand what is being done.And understand what is Catholic Church and what the Creed says (which some other churches are using too).....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Dumbdumb, I did not always refer to the Catholic encyclopedia hor....... don't drag me in.
And I did not understand your statement of "pope inspired by the spirit, because some stuff are a little off"....
But I suggest that you get this off your mind - the Pope is not our Church and our Church is not about the Pope..... It's about God and the Pope is the leader of the Church. Just like some others with protestant churches with bishop etc.... It is not the same as mega churches where the pastor's word or interpretation is taken as truth.
the anglicans have bishops, but they are all of the same rank. the pope isn't.
if the pope says smth, u won't refute it either. if chc is doing smth wrong (and i believe that they might be playing with fire), i dare to say that i disagree with what they say and i refuse to attend their services
the crusades were instigated by the pope. the bible calls for peace and tolerance, but obviously some people weren't listening. everyone depended on the pope for spiritual guidance. that's alot of power, and there are so many cases where this authority has been abused, which led to the reformation.
luthur would have been killed for resisting against the pope's authority if it's not because he was protected by the dutch i think.
hmm i think that the reason you don't dare to think about it, is because you might get excommunicated (eternally cursed).. is that true?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:the anglicans have bishops, but they are all of the same rank. the pope isn't.
if the pope says smth, u won't refute it either. if chc is doing smth wrong (and i believe that they might be playing with fire), i dare to say that i disagree with what they say and i refuse to attend their services
the crusades were instigated by the pope. the bible calls for peace and tolerance, but obviously some people weren't listening. everyone depended on the pope for spiritual guidance. that's alot of power, and there are so many cases where this authority has been abused, which led to the reformation.
luthur would have been killed for resisting against the pope's authority if it's not because he was protected by the dutch i think.
Like I said before, when you embrace a faith, embrace wholeheartedly.....The Pope is the leader of the Church and he is aided by many ministries in the Vatican. That's a different subject but what have you heard so far about the Pope that need rebuttal?
And if there are things that I do not agree, I am free to leave the Church......no one is stopping me.....or you for that matter. And we all can refused to attend Mass....
Or I can stay and "fight" to make changes....like St Francis of Assis did.
I don't want to go and discuss history but like I said, the Pope do make mistakes in the past and no one can assure you that present and future Pope will not. You probaly know more about those stories than me......but do we want to live in the past?
Just because we have lousy Popes before means we give up? Popes are just that... Popes. The Church is based on Christ and not the Pope.....and I will not let a Pope destroy my relationship with Christ.
Just because there are lousy Christians does not make me want to leave my faith.....
Bishop are ranked higher than priest isn't it? And did you not know that they have someone similar like a Pope called "Archbishop of Canterbury" I think....?
Methodist also have pastor and bishops etc...
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm i think that the reason you don't dare to think about it, is because you might get excommunicated (eternally cursed).. is that true?
I never thought about that and how many people did get excommunicated? Do you think it is easy to get excommunicated? Honestly, I don't even know how I will get there.....
But you think the Catholic Church have some kind of hold on me? Do you think your gf is not free to leave the Church or something?
Somethimes, I think you over-complicated matters....don't think too much. Relax a little...
yeah i should. and yes, i think that there's a psychological hold, if not a physical one.
cuz i know that u guys can.. go any churches within the catholic community.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:yeah i should. and yes, i think that there's a psychological hold, if not a physical one.
cuz i know that u guys can.. go any churches within the catholic community.
No...not just that, I go to protestant churches do.....Last mooncake festival, I spend with my friend at a Charismatic Church in Serangoon Road.....I don't see any problem with that. I have a friend (Catholic) who goes to Faith Community......so there is no big deal.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:So, I have gotten things right this time round right?
Ok, help me with a few more things so that I can understand better.
1. At which point you are saved? When you professed your faith?
2. If at the point of professing faith, then does it means once saved always saved?
As for the faith in man statement, I understand and agree with you.
God bless...
My convictions are that
1) I am saved at the time of confession of faith in Christ.
2) I am convinced of once being justified in Christ, no one and nothing can take me away from His love. And it is this certainty that gives me the strength to live concretely in faith in Christ.
God bless
Originally posted by vince69:
My convictions are that1) I am saved at the time of confession of faith in Christ.
2) I am convinced of once being justified in Christ, no one and nothing can take me away from His love. And it is this certainty that gives me the strength to live concretely in faith in Christ.
God bless
Make it simple for me please....so that it is easier to understand.
One is saved at times of professing faith in Christ (even when there is no fruits to show yet).
And once saved, always saved as in "no one and nothing can take me away from His love. And it is this certainty that gives me the strength to live concretely in faith in Christ."
Did I get your right?
Is this your personal conviction or something that is like a doctrine across all protestant churches?
And when you said saved, save from what?
Thank-you and God bless...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i really don't disagree with your points with the exception that for whatever "hope" you say... such a premise excludes the certainity of salvation - because it is a "process".... a process is deemed finished only if the owner of the process says so... that being God. So the new reality is our salvation seems less assured because of the "fine prints" that exists in the "contract"....we all can argue one way or another.... but to me it's just technicality because the need to know that "good works is part of salvation" is not factored in....
and many of us do good works anyway.... and that there is no passing mark....
and that it remains a process.... and we don't know until we make our maker if we passed....
so just continue living and doing good works....
Why would hope excludes certainty? Paul said in Roman 8
24 In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible. 25 But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.
Why would one who have faith in God yet doubt His words?
Using Abraham as an example in Roman 4, Paul said:
20 Counting on the promise of God, he did not doubt or disbelieve, but drew strength from faith and gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that whatever God promised he has the power to perform. 22 This is the faith that was reckoned to him as uprightness.
Omnia said it is a process because we hope for salvation in faith and with full confidence of God that He will do what He promised. And the process officially starts from professing one's faith till the day we meet our Lord to face judgement.
What do you think He will be asking us ?
Eat already? Perhaps, but I found the answer in the last judgement in Gospel of Matthew.
And I think most if not all of us with agree that we need to do good works. It is a commandment of Jesus and also that of proving that we have true faith in Christ.
And good works in this case comes from the heart.....a heart that is changed by Christ and working with the Holy Spirits that it becomes part of our life as Christians. A heart that when doing good works is filled with joy and not grumbling, complaining .......not posting some hair splitting experience on the net etc...and trying to keep track on spread sheet etc......not sometime do so ok liao type. It must be engraved in our heart and God can see that.
So, when we face our judgement, we are able to show our true faith in Christ by our works / fruits and earn what God has promised.
By the way, did Omnia said anything about contract and fine prints?
Yes just continue living and doing good works....because not doing so is to deny Christ!
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
By the way, did Omnia said anything about contract and fine prints?
Yes just continue living and doing good works....because not doing so is to deny Christ!
contract and fine prints??? just a little "creative" paraphrasing.... a guy comes to know Christ and was promised eternal life.... but after a while realised that he need to keep doing good works to ensure that the promised eternal life remain his.... hence the contract and the fine prints....
maybe you guys are right.... maybe that's the fine print that no one has told us about, but even without knowing about the fine prints, i am still doing good works, so no real issue lah.
at the end of the day.... this whole discussion, as i'd kept saying, is debating on technicalities...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:contract and fine prints??? just a little "creative" paraphrasing.... a guy comes to know Christ and was promised eternal life.... but after a while realised that he need to keep doing good works to ensure that the promised eternal life remain his.... hence the contract and the fine prints....
maybe you guys are right.... maybe that's the fine print that no one has told us about, but even without knowing about the fine prints, i am still doing good works, so no real issue lah.
at the end of the day.... this whole discussion, as i'd kept saying, is debating on technicalities...
There is no contract and no fine print so don't make it sound that we come to Christ because we are being cheated. ("but after a while realised that he need to keep doing good works to ensure that the promised eternal life").
Technicality is not about works but what we understand by believing in Christ and being His follower.
The contention of my reply to you was that hope does not means no certainty as you time and again alleged.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
maybe you guys are right.... maybe that's the fine print that no one has told us about, but even without knowing about the fine prints, i am still doing good works, so no real issue lah.
I don't know what you mean by us..... and not sure why you claimed that you have not been told of that as your church doctrine says not doing good works means deny Christ!
Can a person who deny Christ claim to have faith in Christ and claimed to be saved?
or is that what you mean by fine print on the contract that you have not been told about and realised only later??
Good to know you are still doing good work and hope that's because it is from the heart of a Christian who desire to follow Christ. And hope your load (of doing good work) have been lighten and no more hair splitting moments.
I sincerely hoped that you did not mean it when you said "if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless)".
deleted
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and if you believe that it is faith in Jesus which starts off everything, but yet you say that someone who has rejected Jesus' salvation can depend on his good works.
that's not right either. and i still want to know, do you feel that the prostitute has salvation the moment she believes in her heart or does she earn salvation after wiping Jesus' feet with her tears and hair? ...
The grace of God touched the prostitute and she was justified (made right with God) when she repented and believed in Jesus. It was her repentence and faith that saved her, not her act of wiping Jesus' feet with her tears and hair.
However, if she had subsequently turned back to a life of sin till her death, she might very well have ended up in hell (ie: not been saved) even though she had earlier received inital justification and salvation. In other words, whether she ultimately made it to heaven (eternal salvation) depended on her faith and what she did after coming to know Jesus (ie: how she lived out the rest of her life) . Justification and salvation is a process, not a one-time event.
And haven't I already clarified that I have never asserted that someone who has rejected Jesus' salvation can depend on good works to enter heaven? Such a person has to repent and turn back to God (and thereafter live a life of faith, good works and avoidance of sin) if he is to have hope of salvation.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:..... that's what really cheese me off, when i see bumper sticker of mary with the slogan "do you know her?", when you could put a bumper sticker of Christ. i just feel that, everything is done with the wrong piority. ppl refer to words of man, rather than the word of God, they want to introduce mary to others first, before introducing Christ
Mary too leads folks to Christ. Know her and you will very quickly come to know her son, Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:... sola scriptura is certainly nice, because so far, smarty boy kept refering to the catholic encyclopedia. so are the saying of the pope inspired by the spirit, because some stuff are a little off....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:... the crusades were instigated by the pope. the bible calls for peace and tolerance, but obviously some people weren't listening. everyone depended on the pope for spiritual guidance. that's alot of power, and there are so many cases where this authority has been abused, which led to the reformation.
luthur would have been killed for resisting against the pope's authority if it's not because he was protected by the dutch i think.
Catholics hold that the holy spirit does indeed guide and prevent the pope (the successor of St. Peter) from teaching error when the pope teaches on faith and morals to the whole Church in his official capacity (ie: teaching 'from the chair of Peter'; not private doctrinal musings or speculations, or his views about the stock market etc). But beyond this special gift of teaching authority bestowed by God on his Church through the pope and the bishops in communion with him, the pope is subject to sin and human failings (some might have been naive politicians, cowardly etc), not unlike St. Peter and the apostles.
And if you think about it, you really do need an ultimate authority on this planet to teach and guide us to the truth in faith and morals. And that ultimate authority cannot be the bible alone because the bible is not written like a instruction manual. It needs interpretation and it doesn't cover everything. Without this ultimate living teaching authority (of the pope and bishops in communion with him), we are going to have lots of variations and contradictory versions of truth because everybody interprets the bible for himself (supposedly with the guidance of the holy spirit) and sees himself as the final authority. This is evident in the world of protestant christianity arising from the reformation.
To avoid going too much out of topic, I'll just make one point regarding the crusades - that it is necessary to understand the politics and culture of that time before passing judgement. This article provides its own perspective on the crusades: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0603tbt.asp
At the time of the reformation, there were indeed abuses and corruption in the Church but what the reformers apparently failed to understand was that those were of men, not of doctrine. ... hmmm, come to think of it (and this is just musings on my part), maybe some of them did understand the difference but their earthly political agendas won out :)
Originally posted by dumbdumb:
.
what is God's standard of holiness?
what is the law?
what is sin?
what is the consequence of sin?
what is did God provide for the israelites for the consequences of sin?
what did God provide for the world for the consequences of sin?
what is needed to receive this provision from God?
Hi dumbdumb, How about sharing your answers with us?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I don't know what you mean by us..... and not sure why you claimed that you have not been told of that as your church doctrine says not doing good works means deny Christ!
Can a person who deny Christ claim to have faith in Christ and claimed to be saved?
or is that what you mean by fine print on the contract that you have not been told about and realised only later??
Good to know you are still doing good work and hope that's because it is from the heart of a Christian who desire to follow Christ. And hope your load (of doing good work) have been lighten and no more hair splitting moments.
I sincerely hoped that you did not mean it when you said "if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless)".
i cannot comment why and how a person turns to catholism.... whatever i say is based on what i see in protestant churches....
"for God so loved the world... that whosoever believe in Him shall have eternal life"
"come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
"my yoke is light...."
etc etc....
this is what normally happens in an evangelistic rally.... by and large, such messsages are quite common...
it appeals to those who are in need, those who are in pain, and those who are sorrow...
down the line.... on the assumption of the view of faith and works, a convert now suddenly come across the "teaching" that works is needed for his salvation.... somehow, it seems to be me the individual did not read the fine print....
On this point - I sincerely hoped that you did not mean it when you said "if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless)". from the stand point of KNOWING FOR OURSELVES, if we attained salvation, if we cannot quantify how much and what good works are done... it becomes pointless to be embroiled in such a discussion.... because for all that we can say, we will conclude that only God knows the heart, and that being the case, all discussion becomes futile.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm i think that the reason you don't dare to think about it, is because you might get excommunicated (eternally cursed).. is that true?
In case anyone gets the wrong idea, a person who is 'excommunicated' by the Catholic Church is not 'eternally cursed'. He is 'excluded from the communion', meaning that his status before the Church is that of a stranger and he may not participate in public worship nor receive the Body of Christ or any sacraments.
This is the most serious penalty that the Church can impose, and thus used only for very grave offences, with the objective that the person would repent and return to be in communion once again.
We read about excommunication in Matthew 18:17, "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican".
Originally posted by Creation1656:Hi dumbdumb, How about sharing your answers with us?
Hi, my limited understanding
God's standard of holiness - perfection 24/7
The Law - 10 commandments: to be obeyed 24/7 in order to be perfect, which reflects God's standard of perfection
Sin - the state of imperfection that all human beings are at, through breaking of the Law, which seperates us from God
The consequence of sin - spiritual death and eternal seperation from God. There must be death to pay for the consequence of sin.
What did God provide for the israelites for the provision of sin - God introduced the sin offering, and every year, the children of israel will gather, and the priest will lay his hand on the sin offering - a lamb/goat/sheep?, which is to be perfect and unblemished to symbolize the transference of their sins onto the sin offering, and the goodness and perfectness of the lamb will be transfered onto the children of israel. that will cover their sins for 1 year. The priest will then kill the lamb, and enter the Temple, and Holy of holies to worship i think. if the priest did not follow procedure to the letter, or is unclean in thought, he will be struck down by God, and israel will not be covered for a year. That is the old covenent - do good, get good, do bad, get beat.
What did God provide for the world for the provision of sin - the old testaments, the laws, the provisions, the passover all foretold the coming of Christ and what God will do for the world through Jesus. Jesus is the high priest (who will always be perfect, unlike the human priest of old, who can be struck down), who stands on behalf of us who believe, to God, the righteous holy judge and intercedes for us. He is also the lamb, who takes all our sins, and transfer his holiness to us. His blood is spilled for our sins - paying the price of our sins and meeting God's standard of holiness whereby sin must be paid for by death.
God is holy, He has to uphold the law which condemns sinners. The Law demands death of a sinner. But God is also love, and does not want to see us die and be eternally seperated from Him. So Jesus' death was the only way God's holiness and grace can meet without compromise. God's holiness is met because there is death to pay for the consequence of sin, and God's grace is met, because we are spared in the process as Jesus, though innocent, died a sinner's death. This is the new covenent - A righteousness apart from the law is found in Jesus, who came to take away the sins of the world
What is needed to receive this provision from God - One have to believe and confess his belief and receive this gift of grace, through faith.
Originally posted by Omnia:
The grace of God touched the prostitute and she was justified (made right with God) when she repented and believed in Jesus. It was her repentence and faith that saved her, not her act of wiping Jesus' feet with her tears and hair.
- That's what I meant. it's not works which saved her, it's faith. simple, uncomplicated, no strings attached faith.
However, if she had subsequently turned back to a life of sin till her death, she might very well have ended up in hell (ie: not been saved) even though she had earlier received inital justification and salvation. In other words, whether she ultimately made it to heaven (eternal salvation) depended on her faith and what she did after coming to know Jesus (ie: how she lived out the rest of her life) . Justification and salvation is a process, not a one-time event.
- And with this faith she had, it drives her to do good works, to love others and to love God. It comes naturally in time. Everyone falls away at times. King David fell and sinned, but God calls him a man after His own heart, Abraham lied to others to protect himself, but God calls him a man of faith. Paul, one of the fiercest preachers in his days, struggled and proclaimed that he does what he knows he should not do, and does not do what he knows is right to do. Works can never be quantified and used as a measure of salvation. God does the saving, all of it. Our works reflect our salvation (which is a slow life-long process)
And haven't I already clarified that I have never asserted that someone who has rejected Jesus' salvation can depend on good works to enter heaven? Such a person has to repent and turn back to God (and thereafter live a life of faith, good works and avoidance of sin) if he is to have hope of salvation.
tell smarty boy that. and.. i wish someone would tell my gf that.
Mary too leads folks to Christ. Know her and you will very quickly come to know her son, Jesus Christ.
That's a really bad excuse u know..
Catholics hold that the holy spirit does indeed guide and prevent the pope (the successor of St. Peter) from teaching error when the pope teaches on faith and morals to the whole Church in his official capacity (ie: teaching 'from the chair of Peter'; not private doctrinal musings or speculations, or his views about the stock market etc). But beyond this special gift of teaching authority bestowed by God on his Church through the pope and the bishops in communion with him, the pope is subject to sin and human failings (some might have been naive politicians, cowardly etc), not unlike St. Peter and the apostles
Unfortunately, all catholics hold what the pope says as unfallable. You do not question what the pope says, accepting in faith that what he says is what God wants him to say.
I wish that catholics will dare to question, when times of dubious teachings rises. Question is, would u dare to rise and question if this happened? and what can you do to question effectively?
And if you think about it, you really do need an ultimate authority on this planet to teach and guide us to the truth in faith and morals. And that ultimate authority cannot be the bible alone because the bible is not written like a instruction manual. It needs interpretation and it doesn't cover everything. Without this ultimate living teaching authority (of the pope and bishops in communion with him), we are going to have lots of variations and contradictory versions of truth because everybody interprets the bible for himself (supposedly with the guidance of the holy spirit) and sees himself as the final authority. This is evident in the world of protestant christianity arising from the reformation.
The Word of God isn't enough as an ultimate authority? The reformation occurred because there were thinking people who compared the corrupted teachings of the catholic church with the words of the bible. It was the "ultimate living authority of the pope" which failed and corruption ran rampant, not the unchanging authority of the bible.
To avoid going too much out of topic, I'll just make one point regarding the crusades - that it is necessary to understand the politics and culture of that time before passing judgement. This article provides its own perspective on the crusades:http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0603tbt.asp
At the time of the reformation, there were indeed abuses and corruption in the Church but what the reformers apparently failed to understand was that those were of men, not of doctrine. ... hmmm, come to think of it (and this is just musings on my part), maybe some of them did understand the difference but their earthly political agendas won out
Again, what I meant by allowing the pope to be the final authority instead of the unchanging truth of the bible. When you believe that someone's words is infallable, you will not think to question it, unless you yourself know what Jesus said. If more people knew that Jesus taught to offer the other cheek, and realised that the pope at that time taught something which contradicted this unchanging truth, would there be a crusade then? That's why the pope cannot be the final authority. He can teach, and preach and share. but ultimately, everyone must compare whatever that is being taught by man, to what the bible teaches and see if it's contradicting. That's what martin luthur did. and was so nearly killed by the catholic church for it. That's the corruption which happened once, and can happen again, if there is no check on authority and power.