Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i think we got the same bible.... 8-)
of course. same word of God, same number of books, same number of prophets, and same number of salvation plan.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:that's pretty much what all protestants believe actually.
Yes, pretty much the same but some believed only in faith alone only. To me, there is some difference..... I am not sure about you.
Which is why I asked you, if you take out leading to good works, is there still salvation? If faith alone then no need to include leading to good works right? My understanding from some protestant friends is that leading to good works is to prove that the faith is true. (to me back to what I am trying to explain)
But then contradictions happens (about what is the state of faith at profession since we need to see that leading to good works to prove it is true) and we will go on and on..... I am not sure of your view of this.......which is why I said the question is how we look at faith that saves us.
Some truely believed that faith alone saved liao. Leading to good works etc...is another story but saved liao...confirm go heaven. All you need to do is to say it (lips service).
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:of course. same word of God, same number of books, same number of prophets, and same number of salvation plan.
got plan A and plan B....???
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
got plan A and plan B....???
nope. same number of salvation plan. One.
Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
Sola fide ("by faith alone")
Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, pretty much the same but some believed only in faith alone only. To me, there is some difference..... I am not sure about you.
Which is why I asked you, if you take out leading to good works, is there still salvation? If faith alone then no need to include leading to good works right? My understanding from some protestant friends is that leading to good works is to prove that the faith is true. (to me back to what I am trying to explain)
But then contradictions happens (about what is the state of faith at profession since we need to see that leading to good works to prove it is true) and we will go on and on..... I am not sure of your view of this.......which is why I said the question is how we look at faith that saves us.
Some truely believed that faith alone saved liao. Leading to good works etc...is another story but saved liao...confirm go heaven. All you need to do is to say it (lips service).
everything starts of with lip service.
i believe that receiving Christ is the first step, and that's "lip service" for everyone. everyone who puts their faith in Christ does so by professing that faith.
unfortunately, with regards to work, it still boils down to what Christ is doing in their lives, God's purpose for them, and the time factor.
someone who puts their faith in Christ and dies the next minute, is he not saved because he has no chance to prove his faith through work?
is someone whose calling is to pray for others, less saved when compared to someone who led thousands to Christ in africa?
is someone who is struggling with smoking less saved than someone who has never been tempted in that area?
is the prostitute, saved the moment she believes in the love and salvation of Christ, or is she saved only after she wiped Jesus' feet with her tears and hair?
things i think u can consider (from the bible, not cathecism class):
what is God's standard of holiness?
what is the law?
what is sin?
what is the consequence of sin?
what is did God provide for the israelites for the consequences of sin?
what did God provide for the world for the consequences of sin?
what is needed to receive this provision from God?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:no.. you look at faith the way the pope says it is.
i read the bible and decide for myself logically with what is written. that's the difference in my conviction and yours.
and understanding abit of the jewish customs, and how God arranges the priest to perform the sin offering etc. it all fits.
yours don't.
but hey, can't blame, when you all believe that only the church leader is the only person who is trusted to be able to interpret the bible correctly.
things i think u can consider (from the bible, not cathecism class):
what is God's standard of holiness?
what is the law?
what is sin?
what is the consequence of sin?
what is did God provide for the israelites for the consequences of sin?
what did God provide for the world for the consequences of sin?
what is needed to receive this provision from God?
No, even the Pope is not looking at faith based on his personal opinion and it is not his personal interpretation.....it is the official teaching of the Church. You don't have to agree but he is explaining what Paul said about faith and justifications.
He further put forth the other biblical instances including James to show that it is not any faith that will save but true faith that has fruits. Like you, true faith must lead to fruits otherwise it is not true faith right?
And he finally link it to the last judgement where Jesus tell us how He will be judging when the day comes.....
In a short summary, it is faith that saves us but it must be true faith. One that has fruit. The fruit is good works and it is through good works that we proved our faith is true. And in the last judgement, Jesus ask questions that relates to our good works of love and charity to our neighbours. If we have shown loved our neighbours (as He commanded us) we have shown love to God.
So, for me salvation is by faith and good works (for me that means true faith).
For you salvation is by faith leading to good works (which proved that the faith is true).
I hope I read you right for above equation.
shrugs. mine seems more detailed in the process. urs is ambigous.
my equation is. salvation is by faith ALONE. that faith will produce good work in God's timing, since good works has nothing to do with us, according to branches and the vine parable.
hey, what's your take on the prostitute?
oh hey. u know smth? the bible nv said that there is.. true faith, or false faith actually.
it only says that some CLAIM to have faith.
i'm pretty sure you either have faith, or you don't. even if you don't have faith, you can claim that you do, but God knows your heart.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:No, even the Pope is not looking at faith based on his personal opinion and it is not his personal interpretation.....it is the official teaching of the Church. You don't have to agree but he is explaining what Paul said about faith and justifications.
He further put forth the other biblical instances including James to show that it is not any faith that will save but true faith that has fruits. Like you, true faith must lead to fruits otherwise it is not true faith right?
And he finally link it to the last judgement where Jesus tell us how He will be judging when the day comes.....
In a short summary, it is faith that saves us but it must be true faith. One that has fruit. The fruit is good works and it is through good works that we proved our faith is true. And in the last judgement, Jesus ask questions that relates to our good works of love and charity to our neighbours. If we have shown loved our neighbours (as He commanded us) we have shown love to God.
So, for me salvation is by faith and good works (for me that means true faith).
For you salvation is by faith leading to good works (which proved that the faith is true).
I hope I read you right for above equation.
good...
now consider these...
" it is faith that saves us but it must be true faith. One that has fruit. The fruit is good works and it is through good works that we proved our faith "
why do we have to prove our faith? and prove to who?
cheers
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:everything starts of with lip service.
i believe that receiving Christ is the first step, and that's "lip service" for everyone. everyone who puts their faith in Christ does so by professing that faith.
unfortunately, with regards to work, it still boils down to what Christ is doing in their lives, God's purpose for them, and the time factor.
someone who puts their faith in Christ and dies the next minute, is he not saved because he has no chance to prove his faith through work?
is someone whose calling is to pray for others, less saved when compared to someone who led thousands to Christ in africa?
is someone who is struggling with smoking less saved than someone who has never been tempted in that area?
is the prostitute, saved the moment she believes in the love and salvation of Christ, or is she saved only after she wiped Jesus' feet with her tears and hair?
Can a person be saved even when he has no chance to prove his faith by good works? If you listen hard during Mass, the answer is there but that will lead to a separate subject which I do not wish to go into at the moment. But the answer is yes and there is a passage when Paul talks about people trurning up with works etc....I can't remember exact quote.
Originally posted by vince69:good...
now consider these...
" it is faith that saves us but it must be true faith. One that has fruit. The fruit is good works and it is through good works that we proved our faith "
why do we have to prove our faith? and prove to who?
cheers
So, did I read the equation wrongly? The faith that leads to good work is not to prove that faith is true?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:shrugs. mine seems more detailed in the process. urs is ambigous.
my equation is. salvation is by faith ALONE. that faith will produce good work in God's timing, since good works has nothing to do with us, according to branches and the vine parable.
hey, what's your take on the prostitute?
oh hey. u know smth? the bible nv said that there is.. true faith, or false faith actually.
it only says that some CLAIM to have faith.
i'm pretty sure you either have faith, or you don't. even if you don't have faith, you can claim that you do, but God knows your heart.
Yes, the bible did not mention true or false faith that I used it for this discussion. The bible said that faith without deeds is dead or useless.... Not false....
Yes, everyone can claim to have faith....which is why not all who claim to have faith are saved.
How would you know and tell them apart? Which one claimed to have faith and which one really have faith?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:So, did I read the equation wrongly? The faith that leads to good work is not to prove that faith is true?
yes, you read wrongly.
as you had mentioned " it is through good works that we proved our faith" (this statement is correct).
my question is .... to whom are we proving whether our faith is true or false to? and why do we have to prove to him/her/them whether our faith is true or false?
or
who are we showing these good works to, to prove our faith? and why?
cheers.
Proof of faith or proof of repentance?
Is it the same thing?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, the bible did not mention true or false faith that I used it for this discussion. The bible said that faith without deeds is dead or useless.... Not false....
Yes, everyone can claim to have faith....which is why not all who claim to have faith are saved.
How would you know and tell them apart? Which one claimed to have faith and which one really have faith?
only those whose faith are in Christ are saved.
not those whose faith is not in Christ... faith in men? faith in money? ...etc... these type of faith cannot save.
cheers
Originally posted by sillyme:Proof of faith or proof of repentance?
Is it the same thing?
proof to who? why?
cheers
Originally posted by vince69:only those whose faith are in Christ are saved.
not those whose faith is not in Christ... faith in men? faith in money? ...etc... these type of faith cannot save.
cheers
so how do we tell them apart? Is there a way?
Originally posted by vince69:
proof to who? why?
cheers
actually it does not matter la. ignore my questions :P
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:so how do we tell them apart? Is there a way?
the best way and the only correct way to find out, is to know the heart of the person.
but we can't see his/her heart (God Can, we can't)
to us, we see this via his works. good works... then yes, no good works... then don't know. why don't know? we don't see his good works may not means no good works, reason is, we may not be there when he does good works, and no one tell us.
what is the problem here? is having good works a good indicator of true faith? as the Pope correctly put it, and if you look for the definition of good works in catholic encylopedia, you will find that its not just good deeds. but rather fruits of the Spirits, good deeds done in-coperation with the oly Spirit that can be counted for merits.
meaning, good deeds done without the Holy Spirit, without faith in God, without the correct attitude cannot be counted for merits.
why?
an example will be someone doing good works to get to heaven, his faith is in men, man's effort not in Christ. He have faith, he have good works, will he still be save?
cheers
Originally posted by Dumbdumb:
what is God's standard of holiness? - Olam Ha-ba. The perfect world to come
what is the law? - Hashem moral code of conduct for Humankind
what is sin? - Sin is the transgrassion of Law
what is the consequence of sin? - Death
what is did God provide for the israelites for the consequences of sin? - Grace
what did God provide for the world for the consequences of sin? - Grace
what is needed to receive this provision from God? - Nothing
Originally posted by vince69:
the best way and the only correct way to find out, is to know the heart of the person.but we can't see his/her heart (God Can, we can't)
to us, we see this via his works. good works... then yes, no good works... then don't know. why don't know? we don't see his good works may not means no good works, reason is, we may not be there when he does good works, and no one tell us.
what is the problem here? is having good works a good indicator of true faith? as the Pope correctly put it, and if you look for the definition of good works in catholic encylopedia, you will find that its not just good deeds. but rather fruits of the Spirits, good deeds done in-coperation with the oly Spirit that can be counted for merits.
meaning, good deeds done without the Holy Spirit, without faith in God, without the correct attitude cannot be counted for merits.
why?
an example will be someone doing good works to get to heaven, his faith is in men, man's effort not in Christ. He have faith, he have good works, will he still be save?
cheers
Ok, so works is to prove one's faith in Christ and only faith in Christ saves.
I think it is not an issue that we see good works or not because good works is not for others to see.
I agree that good works must come from the heart and that if one has this commandment engraved in his heart, it becomes part of his life and what I have been saying earlier....
So, good works done in co-operation with the Holy Spirit can be counted for merits and is an indicator that one has true faith in Christ. And only such faith can save as per James.
Hope I am getting it right so far....
then, what happened to those who claimed they have faith and yet have some good works that are done but not from the heart.....not as a result of co-operation with the Holy Spirit? Or those who claimed to have faith and went on "sleeping mode" ? They are not going to be saved right?
what do you mean having faith in man....??
Originally posted by Creation1656:what is needed to receive this provision from God? - Nothing
Nothing ? No need faith ?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Nothing ? No need faith ?
Yes, nothing, cos the challenge to humankind is not faith, but our own evil inclination within every one of us. Hey, our ancestors, Adam & Eve, have eaten the fruit of knowledge of good and bad. Thus Hashem has given humankind his Laws i.e a moral code to live by, this is what made us human unlike animals.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Ok, so works is to prove one's faith in Christ and only faith in Christ saves.
I think it is not an issue that we see good works or not because good works is not for others to see.
I agree that good works must come from the heart and that if one has this commandment engraved in his heart, it becomes part of his life and what I have been saying earlier....
So, good works done in co-operation with the Holy Spirit can be counted for merits and is an indicator that one has true faith in Christ. And only such faith can save as per James.
Hope I am getting it right so far....
then, what happened to those who claimed they have faith and yet have some good works that are done but not from the heart.....not as a result of co-operation with the Holy Spirit? Or those who claimed to have faith and went on "sleeping mode" ? They are not going to be saved right?
what do you mean having faith in man....??
Faith in Christ means by the finished and completed works of Christ I am saved.
Faith in Man means by my own works, I am saved (ie. I don't need Jesus Christ).
cheers
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i can only give a hypothetical answer..... and continues to maintain the stand that perhaps we are splitting too many hairs....
on your question.... the issue of what this "fruit" is, can be a contentious issue.....
taking into the assumption that the "fruit" of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance"... is it really conceivable that anyone, in any given amount of time, do not display any of these at all.... or do we mean that all the nine attributes need to be present at the same time? or does God accept "work-in-progress" Christians....
what if, again hypothetically speaking, one of us in sgforums got so worked up and start to flame each other over our theological stand, therefore, perhaps, losing, the longsuffering and temperance aspect of this "fruit"..?
to some, this fruit means bringing in new believers.... so what happens to Christians who had never, directly, bring others to Christ?
theoritically, it is all so simple - bear fruit and you are fine and dandy.... but practically speaking.... how does that all work out?
can you, omnia, for example, claim to have the fruit of the spirit? seriously, the only person i can think of having such attributes to almost a perfect level was mother teresa.
also, is it conceivable that anyone goes through his entire sad life not doing at any one time, any of the attribute?
.... if our conclusion now is...as vince said ....only God can judge.... that what the heck are we talking about???
How all this works out is that after we become Christians, we have to continually strive to keep our faith, to do good works and to avoid sin (to repent when we do fall into sin), all through the grace of God, if we want to enter heaven one day. Justification and salvation is a process that carries on until we stand before God at judgement.
When we talk about bearing fruit, doing good works, avoiding sin; it is not a one time thing, eg: do one good work and you're set for heaven. There is no good works 'passing mark' because we need to keep at it till we leave this world. Does this mean that we have no absolute assurance of salvation ? Yup. We can all have confident hope (if we do as mentioned in the above para) but not certitude of salvation. We need to heed the words of St Paul to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12).