Originally posted by dumbdumb!:yes. see? you agree with me. i really don't understand how u can agree with me, then try to twist what i said to make what you say make sense
How did I twist? Ask yourself what kind of faith saves you? You said "a person who places his faith in Jesus (at this point, receives salvation, tag free, work free)" which means you salvation theory should be salvation = faith in Jesus.
Then, it seems to me that only saying I believe in Jesus will do or just professing our faith. Then, what James said seems on the contrary....
Because at the point of professing, the faith has no fruits to show and thus not true faith right?
That's why we said salvation is faith + works i.e. true faith that is proven by works.
And your previous salvation theory put to me is salvation is faith leading to works which I can also accept because works is there to prove that salvation is by true faith.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i believe that he no longer have faith - and currently no longer abiding in Jesus. so in the light of james' verse, no, i don't think so.
shrugs, but who knows, he'll have faith again one day.
and i believe God is still doing something with him
Yes, we never give up and we pray that he finds his faith again. But having faith is as you said "abiding in Jesus" which I read as doing what He ask us.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:How did I twist? Ask yourself what kind of faith saves you? You said "a person who places his faith in Jesus (at this point, receives salvation, tag free, work free)" which means you salvation theory should be salvation = faith in Jesus.
Then, it seems to me that only saying I believe in Jesus will do or just professing our faith. Then, what James said seems on the contrary....
Because at the point of professing, the faith has no fruits to show and thus not true faith right?
That's why we said salvation is faith + works i.e. true faith that is proven by works.
And your previous salvation theory put to me is salvation is faith leading to works which I can also accept because works is there to prove that salvation is by true faith.
and ephesian says, savation != faith + works
i said you twist it because u can interpret ephesian as something else, when it's so clearly stated.
and.. faith in Jesus is more than saying "yes i do" at the altar. it's also about what drives you to say "Yes i do"
the bible often use marraige as a way to speak of the relationship of the church and Himself. in a marriage, it is possible for people to say "i do", for the sake of doing so, and not because of love. (arranged marraige etc). but how you treat the other person will be reflected. if you say "i do" because of love, you will treat the person with love and your actions will reflect.
you can still say "i do" without any love, and your actions will still reflect. the lack of love or indifference etc.
i believe that's why in the book of james, that quote was made.
but salvation nv comes from works, nothing about salvation is built upon our works. so many bible verses says that. from galations, from ephesians, from romans. and so many examples in Jesus' ministry (remember the prostitute who used her tears and hair to wipe Jesus' feet?), was she saved when she believed, or was she saved only when she wiped his feet?
you can't tell me i'm not right, then accept what i've just said as a consensus.
we came from 2 different viewpoints.. either one is right, we can't both be right.
in the light of ephesians.. how?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, we never give up and we pray that he finds his faith again. But having faith is as you said "abiding in Jesus" which I read as doing what He ask us.
i don't get what u said here. hmm. what do you mean in the 2nd part?
Can we try something?
Can someone define salvation without using the words 'faith' and 'works'?
Originally posted by sillyme:Can we try something?
Can someone define salvation without using the words 'faith' and 'works'?
hmm. salvation = saved from our sins.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm. salvation = saved from our sins.
that was easy.
let's expand on your answer.
saved by whom? God
what are sins? dead works
why save us? to do good works
similarly, God saved the Israelites from the Egyptians, gave them the Torah, so that they may obey it (at the same time act on it) and teach them to their children.
This is my simplified look at salvation and of how faith and works come together. Needless to say, there are gaps to this very simple viewpoint, but it does not bother me too much.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and ephesian says, savation != faith + works
i said you twist it because u can interpret ephesian as something else, when it's so clearly stated.
and.. faith in Jesus is more than saying "yes i do" at the altar. it's also about what drives you to say "Yes i do"
the bible often use marraige as a way to speak of the relationship of the church and Himself. in a marriage, it is possible for people to say "i do", for the sake of doing so, and not because of love. (arranged marraige etc). but how you treat the other person will be reflected. if you say "i do" because of love, you will treat the person with love and your actions will reflect.
you can still say "i do" without any love, and your actions will still reflect. the lack of love or indifference etc.
i believe that's why in the book of james, that quote was made.
but salvation nv comes from works, nothing about salvation is built upon our works. so many bible verses says that. from galations, from ephesians, from romans. and so many examples in Jesus' ministry (remember the prostitute who used her tears and hair to wipe Jesus' feet?), was she saved when she believed, or was she saved only when she wiped his feet?
you can't tell me i'm not right, then accept what i've just said as a consensus.
we came from 2 different viewpoints.. either one is right, we can't both be right.
in the light of ephesians.. how?
It did not become something else...it is still by faith. To me, faith that is proven by works to be true.
Yes, you said I love someone and yet your actions is otherwsie, so do you really love the person in the first place? Do you know someone loves you by what they says or what they do (such as care and concern etc...) So, when one says he believes at the alter, what kind of faith is that?
To me unproven but it's a start of a process....and if one really believes in Christ, he will learn and do what Christ commanded. And prove his love for Christ and his faith. How? To me, by doing good works. Like what you said, true faith leading to good works right?
Yes, many bible verses especially those of Paul's letter state that salvation is by faith and we never dispute that. And the artcile vince69 quoted also support that. But we take other parts of the bible into consideration esepecially that of the Gospel when Jesus told us in the last judgement how He will judge the people.....which is why we believe that faith to be true has to be proven by works.
It is works that prove true faith and it is true faith that saves. Like Jesus said not all who call me Lord Lord will enter into Kingdom of Heaven.....
Originally posted by sillyme:that was easy.
let's expand on your answer.
saved by whom? God
what are sins? dead works
why save us? to do good works
similarly, God saved the Israelites from the Egyptians, gave them the Torah, so that they may obey it (at the same time act on it) and teach them to their children.
This is my simplified look at salvation and of how faith and works come together. Needless to say, there are gaps to this very simple viewpoint, but it does not bother me too much.
hmm.. but the 10 commandments were never meant to provide for salvation.. as said in romans? the 10 commandments could only judge and condemn, and through the commandments, sin is revealed, thus condemning us
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i don't get what u said here. hmm. what do you mean in the 2nd part?
I mean that by abiding in Jesus, you mean to do what He ask us to do? Or simply to follow His commandment?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm.. but the 10 commandments were never meant to provide for salvation.. as said in romans? the 10 commandments could only judge and condemn, and through the commandments, sin is revealed, thus condemning us
Agree. The 10 Commandments are not meant for salvation. The Israelites were saved from the Egyptians before the Commandments were given.
Originally posted by sillyme:
Can someone define salvation without using the words 'faith' and 'works'?
Hashem is my salvation.
The LORD is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation; Exodus 15:2 NASB.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I mean that by abiding in Jesus, you mean to do what He ask us to do? Or simply to follow His commandment?
abiding i've taken it as having a relationship with him
Originally posted by sillyme:Agree. The 10 Commandments are not meant for salvation. The Israelites were saved from the Egyptians before the Commandments were given.
but smarty boy says works is needed as a prerequisite of salvation.
Originally posted by Creation1656:Hashem is my salvation.
The LORD is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation; Exodus 15:2 NASB.
Amen
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:but smarty boy says works is needed as a prerequisite of salvation.
I thought it is a broken and contrite heart.
Originally posted by sillyme:I thought it is a broken and contrite heart.
Amen
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:but smarty boy says works is needed as a prerequisite of salvation.
Well, it is not what I said or what others said that is important. It is what make sense to you according to the bible that is important. Like some "old bird" it is what the overall teaching and message that the bible gives (something like this) that is important.
Put aside whatever denomination and search why each said what they are saying....look at why Paul said what he did and what he did not. The era he is in, the traditions of his audience and the circumstances behind. It is tought and tedious but if you want to be very sure, you need to go deeper.
Surely, Paul was not the only one preaching and not everyone will just sit and listen to him....and what is the theme of his entire collections of letters? Is he preaching what Christ did in the 4 Gospels?
According to a protestant church, not doing good works is to deny Christ! Strong words but true....surely you cannot say you have faith when you you deny Christ, can you?
Still, the questions left unaswered to you is what is faith to you....the faith that will save you. If you already have the answer, good for you. If you have not, search for it..... Good luck!
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Well, it is not what I said or what others said that is important. It is what make sense to you according to the bible that is important. Like some "old bird" it is what the overall teaching and message that the bible gives (something like this) that is important.
Put aside whatever denomination and search why each said what they are saying....look at why Paul said what he did and what he did not. The era he is in, the traditions of his audience and the circumstances behind. It is tought and tedious but if you want to be very sure, you need to go deeper.
Surely, Paul was not the only one preaching and not everyone will just sit and listen to him....and what is the theme of his entire collections of letters? Is he preaching what Christ did in the 4 Gospels?
According to a protestant church, not doing good works is to deny Christ! Strong words but true....surely you cannot say you have faith when you you deny Christ, can you?
Still, the questions left unaswered to you is what is faith to you....the faith that will save you. If you already have the answer, good for you. If you have not, search for it..... Good luck!
then i have found my answer. which makes sense, and is supported biblically. i'm just.. surprised why when the bible says smth which is clear, you can't accept it as it is.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:then i have found my answer. which makes sense, and is supported biblically. i'm just.. surprised why when the bible says smth which is clear, you can't accept it as it is.
i think we got the same bible.... 8-)
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:then i have found my answer. which makes sense, and is supported biblically. i'm just.. surprised why when the bible says smth which is clear, you can't accept it as it is.
Yeah,ok then. I accepted it as it is like you but just that we look at faith differently.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i think we got the same bible.... 8-)
So for you salvation = faith leading to good works?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:So for you salvation = faith leading to good works?
that's pretty much what all protestants believe actually.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:So for you salvation = faith leading to good works?
in a nutshell... yes.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yeah,ok then. I accepted it as it is like you but just that we look at faith differently.
no.. you look at faith the way the pope says it is.
i read the bible and decide for myself logically with what is written. that's the difference in my conviction and yours.
and understanding abit of the jewish customs, and how God arranges the priest to perform the sin offering etc. it all fits.
yours don't.
but hey, can't blame, when you all believe that only the church leader is the only person who is trusted to be able to interpret the bible correctly.
things i think u can consider (from the bible, not cathecism class):
what is God's standard of holiness?
what is the law?
what is sin?
what is the consequence of sin?
what is did God provide for the israelites for the consequences of sin?
what did God provide for the world for the consequences of sin?
what is needed to receive this provision from God?