Originally posted by Chin Eng:... and as i'd maintained so many times....
since we already do good works (and such good works cannot be counted or measured) and we do such good works without hidden agenda....
it does not matter whether one believe that faith + good works or faith leading to good works in order to gain salvation because since we all do good works one time or another, or all the time... and that only God knows the heart.....
any further argument is counterproductive and, to me, is extremely egotistical.
i content that my belief is personal and do not wish to impose it to anyone.
Nobody wants to counts or measure good works in the first place......it was you right?
And nobody says we need to do good works with agenda right?
It does matter if salvation is by faith + good works, faith leading to good works and faith ALONE.
Take out good works means faith is not true and thus no salvation....
Faith alone means no good works is needed and it seems like the arictle quoted do not support leh.... maybe that's why is counterproductive and extremely egotistical to you.
Of course you cannot impose your beliefs on others and no one is here to impose their beliefs on you.....
Just to counter what you claimed as not needed and not part of.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i have already said that it is extremely contentious to continue this discussion. i will back down, because i think it is pointless and does nothing whatsoever to those reading this thread other that to show up our differences (which in reality isn't even really a big deal.
It's ok if you want to back down and I respect that. This thread will explain why works is needed and I think most will agree on that. I guess vince69 and dumbdumb will. In that aspect, I cannot see this as pointless......and it certainly is not as contentious as you think it is.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Nobody wants to counts or measure good works in the first place......it was you right?
And nobody says we need to do good works with agenda right?
It does matter if salvation is by faith + good works, faith leading to good works and faith ALONE.
Take out good works means faith is not true and thus no salvation....
Faith alone means no good works is needed and it seems like the arictle quoted do not support leh.... maybe that's why is counterproductive and extremely egotistical to you.
Of course you cannot impose your beliefs on others and no one is here to impose their beliefs on you.....
Just to counter what you claimed as not needed and not part of.
actually, what i said was "how to count" and "how to measure" and not whether we need to count. i am a practical person even in theology, all theology theories has to be translated to workable practices, so if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless).
"It does matter if salvation is by faith + good works, faith leading to good works and faith ALONE." this is your opinion. i respect that, but please respect mine as well.
the purpose to counter someone else in this forum.... is usually an ego issue - admitted it is also mine.
if i think this thread is pointless... it is my prerogative right?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:actually, what i said was "how to count" and "how to measure" and not whether we need to count. i am a practical person even in theology, all theology theories has to be translated to workable practices, so if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless).
"It does matter if salvation is by faith + good works, faith leading to good works and faith ALONE." this is your opinion. i respect that, but please respect mine as well.
the purpose to counter someone else in this forum.... is usually an ego issue - admitted it is also mine.
if i think this thread is pointless... it is my prerogative right?
I thought you want to back down liao?
No?
"how to count" and "how to measure"? Who said we need to count and measure? You right?
"if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless)" as you pointed out is only your opinion.
It does not means that works is not needed or not part of salvation or pointless...
By the way, are you saying that Jesus commandment of doing good works is pointless? And why you said you do good works when your opinion of doing so is pointless?
There is nothing wrong to counter your opinion and quote the article on good works which seems not to support your opinion. Oops, I forgot to you, it ok to deviate....sorry.
This thread is not pointless as it points out why works is needed and why faith ALONE got no salvation..........and can't I state my perogative ?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I thought you want to back down liao?
No?
"how to count" and "how to measure"? Who said we need to count and measure? You right?
"if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless)" as you pointed out is only your opinion.
It does not means that works is not needed or not part of salvation or pointless...
By the way, are you saying that Jesus commandment of doing good works is pointless? And why you said you do good works when your opinion of doing so is pointless?
There is nothing wrong to counter your opinion and quote the article on good works which seems not to support your opinion. Oops, I forgot to you, it ok to deviate....sorry.
This thread is not pointless as it points out why works is needed and why faith ALONE got no salvation..........and can't I state my perogative ?
i am NOT arguing with you.... why so upset?
i recognise your prerogative that you can think that this thread is NOT pointless... it's okay with me.
aiyah.... when did i say that Jesus' command is pointless... i say this discussion is pointless....
"By the way, are you saying that Jesus commandment of doing good works is pointless? And why you said you do good works when your opinion of doing so is pointless?
There is nothing wrong to counter your opinion and quote the article on good works which seems not to support your opinion."
We all read articles and references, we all can have different views on such articles and references.... are you unable to accept that?
btw, i am backing down ARGUING with you, but not continue any amicable discussion, is that OK?
i am also putting my ego in check.... can you also do that?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i am NOT arguing with you.... why so upset?i recognise your prerogative that you can think that this thread is NOT pointless... it's okay with me.
aiyah.... when did i say that Jesus' command is pointless... i say this discussion is pointless....
"By the way, are you saying that Jesus commandment of doing good works is pointless? And why you said you do good works when your opinion of doing so is pointless?
There is nothing wrong to counter your opinion and quote the article on good works which seems not to support your opinion."
We all read articles and references, we all can have different views on such articles and references.... are you unable to accept that?
btw, i am backing down ARGUING with you, but not continue any amicable discussion, is that OK?
i am also putting my ego in check.... can you also do that?
OIC, so not backing down but change words again....OK no problem.
Me upset? Ha...Ha..Ha..
Granted you did not says that Jesus commandment of doing good works is pointless But you said "if we cannot quantify works, to me (in my opinion, it is pointless)"
Yes, I am able to accept different views (like I can accept vince69 and dumbdumb's salvation theory), problem is can you?
Yes, it's time you put your ego in check because you have gone too far and far too arrogant!
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:OIC, so not backing down but change words again....OK no problem.
so backing down is NOT replying forever??
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
so backing down is NOT replying forever??
different views ?? Of course can reply what.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:different views ?? Of course can reply what.....
yup, still quite scared....
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
kinda.. can't get any clearer than this really. either you accept this truth, or you deny it?
in james, the verse is -
James 2:14 (New International Version)
Originally posted by Chin Eng:yup, still quite scared....
scared of what?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
kinda.. can't get any clearer than this really. either you accept this truth, or you deny it?
Yes, this is clear and never disputed. Read the article that vince69 quoted carefully. It explains exactly what this means in the Catholic Church context. It is not works but faith that is saving.
It is not about works is not needed. It did not says it is not needed. But let's leave that out for now.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, this is clear and never disputed. Read the article that vince69 quoted carefully. It explains exactly what this means in the Catholic Church context. It is not works but faith that is saving.
It is not about works is not needed. It did not says it is not needed. But let's leave that out for now.
it says it is not needed in the technicality of salvation.
how do you interpret
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast"
.to
"It is not about works is not needed. It did not says it is not needed."
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:in james, the verse is -
James 2:14 (New International Version)
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?...................................................................................................................................................let me quote a real life example, a metaphor.my cell member's daughter dropped out of school for a year, and she kept telling her mum that she wants to study, she wants to do O level etc.but everyday she claims she is sick, and skips school, and have displayed no action which reflects her claimed desire to goto school.
James verse is clear isn't it? Can a man who claim to have faith but no deeds save him? James called that dead faith and it is by my works that I show my faith. It is because of your good works (fruits) that showed that you have true faith.
No good words (fruits) means that faith is not true....and such faith will not save.
If you cell member's daughter keep telling her mum she wants to study and yet giving excuses and have no desire to go to scholl, can you say she really wants to study?
Her action showed her true intentions in her heart isn't it?
Like when we say we believe in God and wants to be a true disciple of Chirst and yet cannot get past calculating and measuring good works, it means that our hearts has not changed. We can says we have faith but what kind of faith is that?
James went on to says that even devil have faith in God.....
But if you have true faith and truely believed in God, doing God's commandment is never a hair splitting experience. It is something you want to do because it is engraved in your heart. It becomes a nature for you and it is part of your life as Christian.
If I may quote "spring out of a TRUE and LIVELY FAITH, insomuch that by them a LIVELY FAITH may be as EVIDENTLY KNOWN as a tree is discerned BY ITS FRUIT."
Therefore, the only difference here is how we define faith that saves you. A faith that has fruits or faith without fruits.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:scared of what?
scare of something like this....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:OIC, so not backing down but change words again....OK no problem.
.....
Yes, it's time you put your ego in check because you have gone too far and far too arrogant!
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:James verse is clear isn't it? Can a man who claim to have faith but no deeds save him? James called that dead faith and it is by my works that I show my faith. It is because of your good works (fruits) that showed that you have true faith.
No good words (fruits) means that faith is not true....and such faith will not save.
If you cell member's daughter keep telling her mum she wants to study and yet giving excuses and have no desire to go to scholl, can you say she really wants to study?
Her action showed her true intentions in her heart isn't it?
Like when we say we believe in God and wants to be a true disciple of Chirst and yet cannot get past calculating and measuring good works, it means that our hearts has not changed. We can says we have faith but what kind of faith is that?
James went on to says that even devil have faith in God.....
But if you have true faith and truely believed in God, doing God's commandment is never a hair splitting experience. It is something you want to do because it is engraved in your heart. It becomes a nature for you and it is part of your life as Christian.
If I may quote "spring out of a TRUE and LIVELY FAITH, insomuch that by them a LIVELY FAITH may be as EVIDENTLY KNOWN as a tree is discerned BY ITS FRUIT."
Therefore, the only difference here is how we define faith that saves you. A faith that has fruits or faith without fruits.
i think the key word is "claim"
Jesus says:
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
salvation comes when we're already abiding in Him. then the fruit bearing comes.
a person can claim that he is already abiding, even though he's not.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:it says it is not needed in the technicality of salvation.
how do you interpret
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast"
.to
"It is not about works is not needed. It did not says it is not needed."
Yes, the gift from God you can never work to obtain. It is a gift, a gift that is freely available to all.
But to have the gift, you need to have faith right?
It is this faith that will save you and the question now is what kind of faith? How do you define true faith or any faith (lips service will do)? The faith that James is explaining....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:scare of something like this....
Ok.....it's a good thing.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i think the key word is "claim"
Can you explain how you look at the word "claim"? I am a little lost here...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Ok.....it's a good thing.
is it? ha ha.... you want people to FEAR you?
truth is.... i have said all i want to say... i have nothing more to add.
many of us profess (maybe not verbally) to know our scripture very well.... and attempt to prove our theories correct....
yet, i cannot help but think that we are all looking at the same thing, but in a different angle and a different light.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Can you explain how you look at the word "claim"? I am a little lost here...
hmm. like my friend who is a catholic.
he claims he's catholic. he's born, raised, baptised as a catholic. but in reality, he has already lost faith, believing in science, but in name he's catholic. he claims he has faith, because he went through everything to become a catholic.
so yeah, he can claim he has faith, but his actions prove otherwise. he has no interest in going to church, or anything that is spiritual. he's more interested in the stock market than anything else.
are these the action of someone who really has faith in Jesus?
a person who places his faith in Jesus (at this point, receives salvation, tag free, work free), and that faith causes him to grow, to be hungry for God, to desire to know God more, to desire to love others more.. etc.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, the gift from God you can never work to obtain. It is a gift, a gift that is freely available to all.
But to have the gift, you need to have faith right?
It is this faith that will save you and the question now is what kind of faith? How do you define true faith or any faith (lips service will do)? The faith that James is explaining....
yes. see? you agree with me. i really don't understand how u can agree with me, then try to twist what i said to make what you say make sense
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
is it? ha ha.... you want people to FEAR you?
truth is.... i have said all i want to say... i have nothing more to add.
many of us profess (maybe not verbally) to know our scripture very well.... and attempt to prove our theories correct....
yet, i cannot help but think that we are all looking at the same thing, but in a different angle and a different light.
What FEAR? Making uncessary assumption again?
No one is trying to prove anything, only those who said this is my stand and I don't have to explain.
Explaining, sharing, arguging and quarelling sometimes helps as when all things cooled down, we see each other's point (if we want to).
Yes, we all look at it from different angles because we are taught from different angles. For those questioning, it is a good opportunity to reflect which versions make more sense (nobody said absolute right) to them.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm. like my friend who is a catholic.
he claims he's catholic. he's born, raised, baptised as a catholic. but in reality, he has already lost faith, believing in science, but in name he's catholic. he claims he has faith, because he went through everything to become a catholic.
so yeah, he can claim he has faith, but his actions prove otherwise. he has no interest in going to church, or anything that is spiritual. he's more interested in the stock market than anything else.
are these the action of someone who really has faith in Jesus?
a person who places his faith in Jesus (at this point, receives salvation, tag free, work free), and that faith causes him to grow, to be hungry for God, to desire to know God more, to desire to love others more.. etc.
So, do you think this friend of yours will be saved?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:So, do you think this friend of yours will be saved?
i believe that he no longer have faith - and currently no longer abiding in Jesus. so in the light of james' verse, no, i don't think so.
shrugs, but who knows, he'll have faith again one day.
and i believe God is still doing something with him