Originally posted by dumbdumb!:lol. only the "i personally feel that both of you have more or less, nothing else to say alr" right? hahaha
... and beyond that too.... :-)
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i personally feel that both of you have more or less, nothing else to say alr.
chin eng and i believe that faith alone saves, because God has the power to die for the entire sins of the entire world. As the alpha and omega, the begining and the end, he could see the first sin till the last sin, and he died the perfect death for all those sins, swallowing up death in victory.
and based on scripture, lots of scripture asserted that we are saved on faith, not on works (since works are basically obedience to the law - loving God and loving men).
the old covenent - do good, get good, do bad, get beat.
the new covenent - a new righteousness apart from the law has been found in Christ Jesus. (can something which is righteousness be incomplete, needing men to complete what God has done?)
personally, nothing wrong with good works, so long you don't start thinking that you're better than anyone else (because to be truthful, i've seen alot of catholics who are assholes - from catholic high, to various churches - which makes you a bigger hypocrite because you include good works as part of your salvation - though i feel is incorrect anyway), and that you give glory to God alone, for your salvation, knowing that you yourself are a sinner, saved by God's grace. it's not your knowledge about God (i've seen athiests knowing more about God than a christian), or your tons of good deeds (since compared to God's standard, they are nothing but filthy rags)
Personally, I think, struggling with sin alone - shows your salvation, because a person who is saved, is now conscious of his sins, sure he slips alot, but he knows it's wrong, and he keeps periodically throwing out cigarettes, deleting porn, trying to find self help for his addiction etc. As quoted in james - you claim to have faith, but I have deeds which shows my faith.
i think (recent revelation), i rather elevate someone, encourage someone to fight the good fight, to praise someone in their small efforts to keep the faith, than to nit pick and tear someone down. Since i am just a sinner saved by grace, with no significant good works to talk about, i think i'll choose to view everyone who believes in Jesus the same way. the ark of the covenant is made of wood, covered in gold. we're all imperfect, covered in the blood of Jesus, the perfect high priest. so whatever that is good, and worthy, I'll think of those things.
so in the end, based on our differing doctrines, the question you should ask yourself is - when did you last do your good deed, and what's so good about it? And when is the last time you did something sinful, in thought or in action, and resulting from this questions, ask yourself, are you worthy before God on your works?
and the question, chin eng and i ask ourselves is - what's the last good thing God did for us, that we can be really thankful for and give God the glory for?
tts all i have to say. because so far, the past few posts have been anything but constructive.
what do you think, chin eng?
Actually, all of us believes that it is faith that saves….and even agrees that true faith will bear fruits / works. There was never dispute on that.
The only difference is I believed salvation as a process and not simply when professing faith. Thus, my view that salvation is by faith and works when God make His judgement on our last day. Even protestant churches believes that it is a process too.
Works is not to replace the grace of God or add on to the finish work of Christ.
The only contention left is the application of the salvation theory which to me seems to have some logic failure. Perhaps, there is something that I missed and I appreciate vince69 trying to explain.
Assholes are plenty and everywhere – even here. Catholic High not an accurate reference to use as only about 10% of the students are Catholics.
And you are right that there are hypocrite whose actions do not match what they preach. Not just Christians but people in general….like one who claimed to be pro-Catholic and yet is truly more anti-Catholic than you.
Anyone can claimed to be Christians but their life will reflect if they are truly Christians and if they are witness to Christ.
Jesus taught the truth and reinforced his teachings by using his miraculous power to heal and do good. Throughout His life, he lived an exemplary life responding to lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes, and his dearest friends with the same consistent love, compassion, charity and righteousness.
As Jesus said, not all who call me Lord Lord will enter into kingdom of heaven but those who hear the words and act on it.
You are right that we should reflect on our own lives often and ask ourselves – are we witness to Christ and how do we glorify Him….or do we merely call Him “Lord….Lord…”
At least the last few posts did reveal the old fox's tail .......
Jesus loves me so much, he gave all for me.
vs
I love Jesus so much, i'll give all for him.
Would u say one's more Christ-centred than the other? What would u deem less self-centred?
We were told, stop asking so much, it's time to give. I say, i'd stay basking in Christ's love for me. I'd stay asking from Him who is my Source. My love is limited. My love can fail. My works/ministries/givings are not perfect, i can't count on them.
BUT
Christ's work is perfect, Christ's love never fails, Christ can be counted on, the same yesterday, today, and forever! =D
I'd choose the former as Christ-centredness. Who can do it the way he does? We've all fallen short. :) The secret of the Apostle John - the disciple whom Jesus loves (that phrase only found in his own gospel) - is knowing he's loved. Peter may boast abt his loyalty, but John had the revelation. :P
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:Jesus loves me so much, he gave all for me.
vs
I love Jesus so much, i'll give all for him.
Would u say one's more Christ-centred than the other? What would u deem less self-centred?
We were told, stop asking so much, it's time to give. I say, i'd stay basking in Christ's love for me. I'd stay asking from Him who is my Source. My love is limited. My love can fail. My works/ministries/givings are not perfect, i can't count on them.
BUT
Christ's work is perfect, Christ's love never fails, Christ can be counted on, the same yesterday, today, and forever! =D
I'd choose the former as Christ-centredness. Who can do it the way he does? We've all fallen short. :) The secret of the Apostle John - the disciple whom Jesus loves (that phrase only found in his own gospel) - is knowing he's loved. Peter may boast abt his loyalty, but John had the revelation. :P
Christianity isn't about works, and what you can do for God, but its about faith and what God has done for you.
Christianity is about listening to His words and acting on it.....to love God and to love your neighbour....and be a witness to Christ.
Christianity is about faith, hope and love and nothing is greater than love.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:... and based on scripture, lots of scripture asserted that we are saved on faith, not on works (since works are basically obedience to the law - loving God and loving men).
To be more accurate, the bible teaches that we are saved by faith and works (what we do or not do after we receive and accept the gift of faith). Salvation does not come however, by mere obedience to the law of Moses.
Originally posted by Omnia:To be more accurate, the bible teaches that we are saved by faith and works (what we do or not do after we receive and accept the gift of faith). Salvation does not come however, by mere obedience to the works prescribed by the law of Moses.
Agreed...