Originally posted by Smarty Boy:We are talking about faith and works....and understanding of other's view on the theory which is different from ours. We not not here to learn quantum physics.....
exactly, i think we already know the different views.... but aside from having that knowledge, what else have we learnt?
i am not a qualified Bible scholar, and unless you tell me so, i don't believe you are either.... i know vince isn't either and dumb2 is still a student....
so if none of us are capable of higher level sharing, where else should we turn to.... because at the way we are going here, we are just attempting to bruise each other's ego... well maybe not vince (because he is a really nice guy)
there are many biblical teachings that are way too deep for a faceless forum, which is why i say, this is not the place for it...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i am sure you can google if you truly want to find out.... as i'd said, there are plenty of sites promoting both views....
google is your best friend....
but of course, LEARNING may not be the intention.... and googling is not.... ahem... engaging enough....
seriously, the faith (proven) and faith (unproven), i'd tried to find out, i googled, but cannot find anything.... if i can i wouldn't bother you.
and this is your reply using google as an exuse....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:This is what I wrote so that you can think about what is the role of works in your salvation theory.....and your reply is below's quote.....
if you say you already understand my view, there is really no point in going beyond that, if not an attempt to change it....
i understand your view and i have never really questioned it.... we should just leave it as that.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:actually it is not so much i agree or not... but if one goes on one particular trend of thought, the conclusion is such....
the first hypothesis is: man can do good work, and if man can only do good work because God inspires them.... therefore God did inspire them. Loving God was not part of this equation, because these people may not know God.... and these are people who are prompted by God to help others, to do charity.
the next hypothesis: if man can only do good work because the need to love God to do good work, then because they do not love God, all the works they do are not good works...
actually, i would not attempt to paraphase dumb2's post.... i take them at face value.... of dumb2 can explain them further, if he has the time.
i tend to go with the first hypothesis because there are non-believers who are capable of going to great length to do charity, yet they may either not know God or reject God, so if i have to put a reason to why they do good works, i'd say that's through the inspiration of God - however there is no way i can prove that either.
actually, dumbdumb is making a simple scenario to try and explain the difference of one having true faith and one that is not really interested - both professing faith. One (with true faith) is saved and the other is not.....
You have gone too far off liao leh....though I know what you are trying to say......
I agree with you that they are inspire by God because all good things come from God and no one can do good works as a result of satan's work.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:and this is your reply using google as an exuse....
on one hand, i am trying very hard to be civil here.....
you said you wanted to find out, you used the word (learn).... i suggest you google for it because there are many more qualified people who writes better....
i don't think that by saying that you google is an excuse.... but if you maintain that it is so, it's ok with me.
if you think that it is my shortcoming that i am not able to answer all your question, i submit that it's because i am not theologically trained.... we use to have a theological student here, but he has not checked in for a long time.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
exactly, i think we already know the different views.... but aside from having that knowledge, what else have we learnt?i am not a qualified Bible scholar, and unless you tell me so, i don't believe you are either.... i know vince isn't either and dumb2 is still a student....
so if none of us are capable of higher level sharing, where else should we turn to.... because at the way we are going here, we are just attempting to bruise each other's ego... well maybe not vince (because he is a really nice guy)
there are many biblical teachings that are way too deep for a faceless forum, which is why i say, this is not the place for it...
Sharing is something that is part of being a Christian. We come from different backgrounds and different churches that teaches us slightly different views.
Sharing our view in good faith can help us understand each other's view better and thus create a better Christian world.....instead of "Christian fighting Christian"....We pray to the same God and serve the same Lord.
I think my question are simple and I think vince69 in 2 posts (recent ones) have make it clearer than all the 7-8 pages of arguments we have gone thru. Like I said, not everyone is here to tear and dismantle each other's view though I know there are.....I stated that when I asked the questions....it is your own insecurities that is causing your reactions.
I don't see how we cannot share....even when we may not agree completely or that we are mere Christians and not scholar.....we share what we know and as dumbdumb said, when we don't, we go find out and learn.....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
on one hand, i am trying very hard to be civil here.....you said you wanted to find out, you used the word (learn).... i suggest you google for it because there are many more qualified people who writes better....
i don't think that by saying that you google is an excuse.... but if you maintain that it is so, it's ok with me.
if you think that it is my shortcoming that i am not able to answer all your question, i submit that it's because i am not theologically trained.... we use to have a theological student here, but he has not checked in for a long time.
It is not all about that.....I know you already knew the anwers to the questions you repeatedly asked.....and I repeatedly answers.....
And to try put an end, I point you to the role of works in your salvation theory to end your questions which in my opinion is asked on purpose in bad faith. Certainly, I don't think we need to google that.....you know the role of works in your salvation theory and that itself will answer the questions you repeatedly asked.
You may not realise but you are not answering my questions but keep trying to proved to me that your theory is right.....because you think I am questioning it.
I am trying to be very civil with you too.....but you make it impossible. If you are civil, I will be too....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I don't see how we cannot share....even when we may not agree completely or that we are mere Christians and not scholar.....we share what we know and as dumbdumb said, when we don't, we go find out and learn.....
we share what we know and as dumb2 said, when we don't, we go find out and learn, so go where and find out and learn.... simpliest one? google, so still, it is not an excuse.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:It is not all about that.....I know you already knew the anwers to the questions you repeatedly asked.....and I repeatedly answers.....
And to try put an end, I point you to the role of works in your salvation theory to end your questions which in my opinion is asked on purpose in bad faith. Certainly, I don't think we need to google that.....you know the role of works in your salvation theory and that itself will answer the questions you repeatedly asked.
You may not realise but you are not answering my questions but keep trying to proved to me that your theory is right.....because you think I am questioning it.
I am trying to be very civil with you too.....but you make it impossible. If you are civil, I will be too....
how do we draw the line one whether we are trying to "prove our theory as right" or "i am sharing what i believe"?
i have said it many times that i am only giving my opinion....
yeah i know the role of works in my salvation - it has nothing to do with salvation.... but somehow i get the feeling that you are trying to force me to say that the works in my salvation is part of salvation.... but i may be wrong.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:we share what we know and as dumb2 said, when we don't, we go find out and learn, so go where and find out and learn.... simpliest one? google, so still, it is not an excuse.
how do we draw the line one whether we are trying to "prove our theory as right" or "i am sharing what i believe"?
i have said it many times that i am only giving my opinion....
yeah i know the role of works in my salvation - it has nothing to do with salvation.... but somehow i get the feeling that you are trying to force me to say that the works in my salvation is part of salvation.... but i may be wrong.
See....you are still at it.....Google is not an excuse or did I ever said we should not turn to it. I point you to wonder what is the role of works in your salvation theory which will answer the questions you reaptedly asked......in bad faith.
Answers which you already knew and will automatically answer your own questions. Instead, you said go to google....which is why I said you used it as an excuse and a pathetic effort at that!
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
how do we draw the line one whether we are trying to "prove our theory as right" or "i am sharing what i believe"?
i have said it many times that i am only giving my opinion....
yeah i know the role of works in my salvation - it has nothing to do with salvation.... but somehow i get the feeling that you are trying to force me to say that the works in my salvation is part of salvation.... but i may be wrong.
I have said many times by now....your own insecurities and intentions is causing your reactions.....and not everyone share your intentions.....Yes, in this case, you are wrong and works is in your theory.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:See....you are still at it.....Google is not an excuse or did I ever said we should not turn to it. I point you to wonder what is the role of works in your salvation theory which will answer the questions you reaptedly asked......in bad faith.
Answers which you already knew and will automatically asnwer your own questions. Instead, you said go google....which is why I said you used it as an excuse and a pathetic effort at that!
well, as i see it, there are many versions to this issue with faith and works, i don't believe we are able to deal with it completely, and if we want to learn, i feel that we need to look for external source, can i not have this opinion? if i say we can google, can i not have this opinion? why is it an excuse?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
well, as i see it, there are many versions to this issue with faith and works, i don't believe we are able to deal with it completely, and if we want to learn, i feel that we need to look for external source, can i not have this opinion? if i say we can google, can i not have this opinion? why is it an excuse?
Oxymoronic as you just said you know (the role of works in your salvation theory).....and now this many versions things is coming on again...and classic example of not wanting to read in context. Ok, you can have this and you are "right" again....happy?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Oxymoronic as you just said you know (the role of works in your salvation theory).....and now this many versions things is coming on again...and classic example of not wanting to read in context. Ok, you can have this and you are "right" again....happy?
well, i am a parent - i know how to bring up my children.... but there are many versions of how this is done - is it oxymoronic?
if i say i don't know the role of works in my salvation.... what does it mean?
if you know the role of works in your salvation and yet continue to look for more answers .... what does it mean...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
well, i am a parent - i know how to bring up my children.... but there are many versions of how this is done - is it oxymoronic?if i say i don't the role of works in my salvation.... what does it mean?
if you know the role of works in your salvation and yet continue to look for more answers .... what does it mean...
The truth is, you are not looking for more answers............how could it be? I am pointing to you to go back to your own undertsanding of works in your salvation theory and you are asking me to google......complete waste of time isn't it? Yes, complete oxymoronic.......and this can go on and on and on......
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:The truth is, you are not looking for more answers............how could it be? I am pointing to you to go back to your own undertsanding of works in your salvation theory and you are asking me to google......complete waste of time isn't it? Yes, complete oxymoronic.......and this can go on and on and on......
do i need to look for more answers, or do you want me to look for your answers?
why is googling a complete waste of time...?
as i can tell, there are many very good and interesting write-up on salvation, some similar to yours, others similar to mine.... those that are similar to mine expresses the concepts better than me...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
do i need to look for more answers, or do you want me to look for your answers?why is googling a complete waste of time...?
as i can tell, there are many very good and interesting write-up on salvation, some similar to yours, others similar to mine.... those that are similar to mine expresses the concepts better than me...
If you are looking for answers, why ask me to google? Oxymoronic isn't it?? You will go and on...and on...and on........classic...and yes complete waste of time.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:If you are looking for answers, why ask me to google? Oxymoronic isn't it?? You will go and on...and on...and on........classic...and yes complete waste of time.
you already have your own version of salvation yet you still want to learn? learn what?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
you already have your own version of salvation yet you still want to learn? learn what?
Ya....I know you just want to go on and on and on and on.......it's just you as you have shown here time and again. And now you are completely on different subject liao.....on learning liao.....Wasting time..............but do show your true color.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Ya....I know you just want to go on and on and on and on.......it's just you as you have shown here time and again. And now you are completely on different subject liao.....on learning liao.....Wasting time..............but do show your true color.
topic finish liao.... you have your view and i have my view, and unless we are still trying to convince each other (which I am not), nothing else to post liao.
if i am the one that wants to go on and on.... of course i will go on and on.... but how about you stop going on and on.... can?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
topic finish liao.... you have your view and i have my view, and unless we are still trying to convince each other (which I am not), nothing else to post liao.
You decide ? Actually, I am still waiting for vince69 to come back with some clarifications...maybe he will...maybe he will not...but you decide finish liao one meh?
You should have finish liao long time ago....when you back out.....and 14 pages on and you still here....??
Originally posted by Chin Eng:if i am the one that wants to go on and on.... of course i will go on and on.... but how about you stop going on and on.... can?
If you want to go on and on and on...it's your choice lah....did I stop you??
i personally feel that both of you have more or less, nothing else to say alr.
chin eng and i believe that faith alone saves, because God has the power to die for the entire sins of the entire world. As the alpha and omega, the begining and the end, he could see the first sin till the last sin, and he died the perfect death for all those sins, swallowing up death in victory.
and based on scripture, lots of scripture asserted that we are saved on faith, not on works (since works are basically obedience to the law - loving God and loving men).
the old covenent - do good, get good, do bad, get beat.
the new covenent - a new righteousness apart from the law has been found in Christ Jesus. (can something which is righteousness be incomplete, needing men to complete what God has done?)
personally, nothing wrong with good works, so long you don't start thinking that you're better than anyone else (because to be truthful, i've seen alot of catholics who are assholes - from catholic high, to various churches - which makes you a bigger hypocrite because you include good works as part of your salvation - though i feel is incorrect anyway), and that you give glory to God alone, for your salvation, knowing that you yourself are a sinner, saved by God's grace. it's not your knowledge about God (i've seen athiests knowing more about God than a christian), or your tons of good deeds (since compared to God's standard, they are nothing but filthy rags)
Personally, I think, struggling with sin alone - shows your salvation, because a person who is saved, is now conscious of his sins, sure he slips alot, but he knows it's wrong, and he keeps periodically throwing out cigarettes, deleting porn, trying to find self help for his addiction etc. As quoted in james - you claim to have faith, but I have deeds which shows my faith.
i think (recent revelation), i rather elevate someone, encourage someone to fight the good fight, to praise someone in their small efforts to keep the faith, than to nit pick and tear someone down. Since i am just a sinner saved by grace, with no significant good works to talk about, i think i'll choose to view everyone who believes in Jesus the same way. the ark of the covenant is made of wood, covered in gold. we're all imperfect, covered in the blood of Jesus, the perfect high priest. so whatever that is good, and worthy, I'll think of those things.
so in the end, based on our differing doctrines, the question you should ask yourself is - when did you last do your good deed, and what's so good about it? And when is the last time you did something sinful, in thought or in action, and resulting from this questions, ask yourself, are you worthy before God on your works?
and the question, chin eng and i ask ourselves is - what's the last good thing God did for us, that we can be really thankful for and give God the glory for?
tts all i have to say. because so far, the past few posts have been anything but constructive.
what do you think, chin eng?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
what do you think, chin eng?
i think you are right 8-)
heard this recently.... works is not needed for salvation, works is needed for Christian living....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i think you are right 8-)
lol. only the "i personally feel that both of you have more or less, nothing else to say alr" right? hahaha