faith & works
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
hmm....seems like reading out of context is becoming a habit....
God judge us based on the fruits / works as a result (proof) of our faith as He described in the last judgement......
Who is juding and trying to make conclusions??? Perhaps you and the contention is really to explain:
how faith without works can "saves" as we (maybe again except you) that only true faith in Christ that is proven / bear fruits / works cxan saves.....if you disagree with this (about only true faith saves), then the question is for for you.....if you agree then explains how faith without works can saves.....
and since we agreed (maybe now not...) that God judge us on our last day (and I keep telling you that He validate us on the last day) and based on our works / fruits as described in the last judgement, then who make judgement when we profess our faith....
and you answered only once and I acknowledge it....and later, I will ask you how that works.....
actually we have gone through all these rhetorics already....but, what i am really interested now is: faith (proven) and faith (unproven) is to whom... and how is it done? can man prove to each other? if we are not talking about man, what are we talking about?
yup, i am also repeating my question.....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Know nothing more or don't want to know more......?? Did we not already discussed about this and what the thief has done? Forget?
yeah the thief has done something that deserve death.... the only thing positive, as recorded, is to defend Christ.... aside from that... zilch.so quite okay what....
i said he has not done any good works.... you say i am judgemental,
you say it is likely he has done good works, and that is not presumptious (judgemental)???
ok assume you are correct, still okay what.... most if not all of us have done anything deserving a criminal death, so no problem....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
and wondering what is salvation = faith leading to good works means......and the role of the works........
i am sure you can google if you truly want to find out.... as i'd said, there are plenty of sites promoting both views....
google is your best friend....
but of course, LEARNING may not be the intention.... and googling is not.... ahem... engaging enough....
seriously, the faith (proven) and faith (unproven), i'd tried to find out, i googled, but cannot find anything.... if i can i wouldn't bother you.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
correct, reward is the same, regardless of how much you work....or how little, basically, the issue, you can't complain because God will do what he wants.....
hmmm......right, more work or less works same rewards....agreed.
No works equal no rewards as there is nothing that says anyone has no works yet has reward.......!!
"God will do what he wants....." when has God has that? Or was it you who said so??
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually we have gone through all these rhetorics already....but, what i am really interested now is: faith (proven) and faith (unproven) is to whom... and how is it done? can man prove to each other? if we are not talking about man, what are we talking about?
yup, i am also repeating my question.....
hmmmm. not we but you........
Ok, faith proven by fruits and works = true faith (proven)
faith without fruits / works = faith unproven...... or in James, useless or dead faith!
How can it be done? Do works lah......and to whom? God will validate it on our last day lor...
Go on repeating and answer is the same lah...........and it only shows your true self mah. No problem.....
The difference is - you repeat questions clearly answered.....I repeat questions that was unanswered.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
yeah the thief has done something that deserve death.... the only thing positive, as recorded, is to defend Christ.... aside from that... zilch.so quite okay what....
i said he has not done any good works.... you say i am judgemental,
you say it is likely he has done good works, and that is not presumptious (judgemental)???
ok assume you are correct, still okay what.... most if not all of us have done anything deserving a criminal death, so no problem....
You said that he has no works but in actual fact he did and it was in the bible.......his last action is about not being silence and passive in the face of need, injustice and exploitation.....and thus he did not deny Christ.
which actually fits perfectly into your church doctrine of:
"The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."So, what presumptious (judgemental)??? Can you try talk some sense or not???
It has nothing to do with criminal death......but what you said below......
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
quite a good deal if you ask me, just one phrase and kenna saved.... so maybe we all should be like that too.
just like the workers who got hired at the end
of the day, still rewarded the same way....seems for the same reward, some don't need to work too hard. The focus are the pay (the reward) - which is the same, and the work to be done (which varies from worker to worker)....
Although no one asked you, you did reveal your thoughts......(hmmmm, why would a true disciple think like that?)
and it is not about good deal or bad deal lah!......But if you want to be clever and thinking work more or less still same rewards, then work less is better deal....then it is your choice....
But there is NO MENTION OF NO WORK GOT REWARD HOR.....
To me that's one way to tell apart if one's heart is truely with Christ....why should you want to work less (and love Christ less) if you are a true believer? If one loves God, one wants to serve and do more...........not less.......(see can prove what....)
And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God. And God will validate our works when He judge us on our last day......
I have said many times that I agreed that salvation is by faith but only true faith that has works to show.......Faith with works is useless / dead! Try proving that dead / useless faith can save leh.....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i am sure you can google if you truly want to find out.... as i'd said, there are plenty of sites promoting both views....
google is your best friend....
but of course, LEARNING may not be the intention.... and googling is not.... ahem... engaging enough....
seriously, the faith (proven) and faith (unproven), i'd tried to find out, i googled, but cannot find anything.... if i can i wouldn't bother you.
If that ( google is your best friend....) is really what you think, then why are you here?? OH, I forgot, you did mention you intention here before and your actions is proving it......ooops.... actions proving it.....
But answering that question I asked will automatically answer your question on proven faith. So using google as an excuse is pathetic.
Seriously, you are not interested in the answer which you already knew.....it's just your intentions......
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
simply illustrated.
if a person goes to church, hears the message of the good news, realises how corrupted and sinful he is, he realises he is helpless, he ask God for mercy for he is a helpless sinner, he is justified.
a person marries a christian, and for the partner's sake, becomes a christian. he doesn't feel he has any faults at all, he just simply become a christian to suit his partner. thus he doesn't feel the need to know God more, and doesn't receive God's love, and without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.
see? both professes, but at the moment of professing, true faith, or false faith is already established (kinda)
it doesn't mean though, the person who professes falsely, is out of God's will though. who knows, maybe one day he will be touched by God, and that leads him to know God more, and it becomes true faith, and that gives him God's love, and with that love, he produces good works and fruits automatically.
This is dumbdumb's example....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
hmmmm. not we but you........
Ok, faith proven by fruits and works = true faith (proven)
faith without fruits / works = faith unproven...... or in James, useless or dead faith!
How can it be done? Do works lah......and to whom? God will validate it on our last day lor...
Go on repeating and answer is the same lah...........and it only shows your true self mah. No problem.....
you guys are really serious on this....
serious, have to read James in context please...
1) God do not need to use our works to validate our faith.... he knows if its true or not from day 1 from the inside of our heart. so this concept of God using our works to jusdge our faith is incorrect. He don't need us to show Him, He already knows. He who numbered the hair on our head, knows about us, more than we know about ourselves.
2) So what is this faith without works is dead all about? read the preceeding verses from James... What James started off is with this, If a brother is hungry or in cold, and he comes to you who have extras; much more than enough. And you reply him, God will provide for you and walk away without lifting a finger to help him. What good is your faith (that God will provide his needs) to him (the brother who is in need) not God. Your faith is therefore as good as being dead, as far as this brother is concern.
3) what about true faith that will bear fruits? correct, if a person truely believe that God will provide, and truely believe, he will also show in his life, what he believe in. BUT, this is not about showing God our works, but showing the people around what we believed in, and in doing so, be a testamony to the world about who God is. We can tell people about God all we wants, but at the end, its our life that will show them who God is.
I like the way Pope Benedict closes his lecure on 26Nov2008,
"Therefore let us allow ourselves to be touched by reconciliation, which God has given us in Christ, by God's "foolish" love for us; nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love. "
Do you have this certainity, that nothing and no one, not even the lack of good works or anything, can separate you from God's love? It is when we are certain, that we are forever loved, an nothing can separate us from God, that we can find the willingness and strength to live concretely the faith that works in love.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Exactly, both professes faith and you can already see that the second one is not saved ......thus professing faith does not saved.
Yet, he could be saved if there is a change of heart and that he is truely touched by God and if he listen to His Words and act on it later....
For the first guy, we still cannot says that his faith is true....his feelings may change down the line......and then he become unsaved?
But if he truely desires God, he will learn about Him, hear His Words and act on it, then his faith will be proven to be not a spur of moment kind of feeling but real and true faith in God. Then, we can says that he will be saved....
So to determine if one is saved or not at time of professing seems to create saved and unsaved situations..... and uncertainty so as to speak.
Does that make sense to you ?
This is my take....so how do you fit your salvation theory in which of course will answer the part I am asking how can faith (unproven yet) saves.....
And why would God judge at time of professing faith (which there are no bible quote to support)....when you agree that He will judge us on our last day.....
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Originally posted by vince69:
you guys are really serious on this....
serious, have to read James in context please...
1) God do not need to use our works to validate our faith.... he knows if its true or not from day 1 from the inside of our heart. so this concept of God using our works to jusdge our faith is incorrect. He don't need us to show Him, He already knows. He who numbered the hair on our head, knows about us, more than we know about ourselves.
2) So what is this faith without works is dead all about? read the preceeding verses from James... What James started off is with this, If a brother is hungry or in cold, and he comes to you who have extras; much more than enough. And you reply him, God will provide for you and walk away without lifting a finger to help him. What good is your faith (that God will provide his needs) to him (the brother who is in need) not God. Your faith is therefore as good as being dead, as far as this brother is concern.
3) what about true faith that will bear fruits? correct, if a person truely believe that God will provide, and truely believe, he will also show in his life, what he believe in. BUT, this is not about showing God our works, but showing the people around what we believed in, and in doing so, be a testamony to the world about who God is. We can tell people about God all we wants, but at the end, its our life that will show them who God is.
I like the way Pope Benedict closes his lecure on 26Nov2008,
"Therefore let us allow ourselves to be touched by reconciliation, which God has given us in Christ, by God's "foolish" love for us; nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love. "
Do you have this certainity, that nothing and no one, not even the lack of good works or anything, can separate you from God's love? It is when we are certain, that we are forever loved, an nothing can separate us from God, that we can find the willingness and strength to live concretely the faith that works in love.
Actually, I am no longer sure if everyone is serious as some is just being personal and a disturbance at best......
I am seriously trying to piece up the salvation theory.....
For James, it simply tell us faith without works is dead or useless.....If you truely have faith, you will have works....and "It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith"
God loves all His creation and that was never doubted and the Pope is right is saying that " It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love. " For God love us first and we are told to live and love each other......
How else to be a witness of Christ or a testimony without works? I agree that "its our life that will show them who God is."
If one claimed to have faith and yet has no work to show, then do you think that the person really have faith in the first place?? And in the last judgement, Jesus told us how He will judge us as the Pope explained in the original article you quoted earlier in this thread.
So, if you can continue from where you left off, I would be happy....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:hmmm......right, more work or less works same rewards....agreed. No works equal no rewards as there is nothing that says anyone has no works yet has reward.......!! "God will do what he wants....." when has God has that? Or was it you who said so?? ......
Expounding a new theological theory???
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.
or are you saying that God cannot do what he wants???
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Although no one asked you, you did reveal your thoughts......(hmmmm, why would a true disciple think like that?) and it is not about good deal or bad deal lah!......But if you want to be clever and thinking work more or less still same rewards, then work less is better deal....then it is your choice.... But there is NO MENTION OF NO WORK GOT REWARD HOR
..... actually.... got: http://www.carm.org/catholic/faithalone.htm, but this one is quite anti-catholic...
Last line in that link:
Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
Real faith will produce good works, but works is not part of the salvation process as can be seen in so many verses.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:To me that's one way to tell apart if one's heart is truely with Christ....why should you want to work less (and love Christ less) if you are a true believer? If one loves God, one wants to serve and do more...........not less.......(see can prove what....) And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God. And God will validate our works when He judge us on our last day...... I have said many times that I agreed that salvation is by faith but only true faith that has works to show.......Faith with works is useless / dead! Try proving that dead / useless faith can save leh.....did i say we should be doing less....??? i said, the thief had a good deal.... we may be in a position to have that kind of deal too.... based on your faith/works combo move.... but i refer to http://www.carm.org/catholic/faithalone.htm again.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:If that ( google is your best friend....) is really what you think, then why are you here?? OH, I forgot, you did mention you intention here before and your actions is proving it......ooops.... actions proving it.....
But answering that question I asked will automatically answer your question on proven faith. So using google as an excuse is pathetic.
Seriously, you are not interested in the answer which you already knew.....it's just your intentions......
what so pathetic....?? i check whatever folks here share.... or you mean you don't check? and anyhow hantam.... but don't be shy lah.... you also google for methodist discipline to counter me.... i ever complain or not? but suddenly, decided you are not interested in John Wesley....
fact remains, that the sgforums is a faceless forum, i don't know your credentials, you don't know credentials.... you may be a theological scholar, a disgraced priest, or a cab driver. who knows....? i may be 16 yr old kid, or an 80 yr old man, or a ice cream seller.... again who knows.... eh... actually not true.... about 3 members here know me.
so we don't really have the theological credentials to go too deep, if i want to learn, i can read up, or i can google (which is cheaper). suggesting that we should google first is nothing to be ashamed about.... otherwise how i know that the catholic church also tithe, or that there are disgraced priests who molest choir boys.... or money grabbing pastors....
i googled and found nothing on faith (proven) or faith (unproven).... so how?
unproven to whom and proven to whom...???
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Actually, I am no longer sure if everyone is serious as some is just being personal and a disturbance at best......
I am seriously trying to piece up the salvation theory.....
you seriously expect to be able to piece up the salvation THEORY(?) through a forum?you must be kidding right?
... but you already piece up one theory: faith + works....
... i happen to piece up one theory: faith without works....
with the diversified views that you can dig up via the internet written by REAL Bible scholars, the verdict is still out there!
if you are truly serious, go to a Bible school or at least enroll in a Bible class, even then, each class will be bias towards one view....
at best, in a forum, only opinions are offered. like yours and mine....
as i'd said before, is it important? you believe in Christ, i believe in Christ...
you do good works, i do good works....
you believe good works is part of salvation, i do not....
if God want to pin the last point on us on the day of reckoning, we are not going to be around to enjoy each other's shock....
does it matter to you if i am found to be wrong? so what? it's my business... it's between God and me.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
This is dumbdumb's example....
sure.... it's okay, it's just an example....
a person marries a christian, and for the partner's sake, becomes a christian. he doesn't feel he has any faults at all, he just simply become a christian to suit his partner. thus he doesn't feel the need to know God more, and doesn't receive God's love, and without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.
however i do not agree with the last part.....
... without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.... can be equated to: people with God's love does not produce fruits or good works.....
... i think you once said, that God can inspire non-believers to do good works... but if these people do not love God, they should not be able to produce good works.....
... note that i am not disagreeing with the individual opinions.... but these two opinions are, imo, in conflict. interestingly, i am more incline to go with yours, because i believe everybody (including non-Christian) do good work, and if one need to put a reason to it, then one can say, that God inspires these people to do good work.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
This is my take....so how do you fit your salvation theory in which of course will answer the part I am asking how can faith (unproven yet) saves.....
And why would God judge at time of professing faith (which there are no bible quote to support)....when you agree that He will judge us on our last day.....
God judges everybody on the last day.... christians, jews, taoists, buddhists, muslims, jehovah witness, tree hugger, gypsies, satan worshippers....
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those who believe in faith + works = salvation, will do good works....
those who believe faith only = salvation, will also do good works....
and that it is inconceivable that anyone will live through his life NOT doing good works...
even the thief on the cross did at least one good work and was saved....
and all this merry go round is really NOT about good works per se, but where good works stand......
is this really an ideological argument in disguise???
what difference does it make to the other side by proving if one is right???
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Actually, I am no longer sure if everyone is serious as some is just being personal and a disturbance at best......
I am seriously trying to piece up the salvation theory.....
For James, it simply tell us faith without works is dead or useless.....If you truely have faith, you will have works....and "It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith"
God loves all His creation and that was never doubted and the Pope is right is saying that " It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love. " For God love us first and we are told to live and love each other......
How else to be a witness of Christ or a testimony without works? I agree that "its our life that will show them who God is."
If one claimed to have faith and yet has no work to show, then do you think that the person really have faith in the first place?? And in the last judgement, Jesus told us how He will judge us as the Pope explained in the original article you quoted earlier in this thread.
So, if you can continue from where you left off, I would be happy....
Generally speaking, yes, if one's faith is true, it will santify him in a way that he will have good works in his life. Now, on the other hand, having works or lack of it is not a good guage.
Let me explain... what I did not see, does not means its not there, it just means I did not see it.... I don't see good works in your life (heck, I have not even met you), does not means you have not done any good works, it simply means, I have not seen them.
The good news is, how I view your faith, does not matter and should not matter to you at all, for you are not ask to please all men, you only need to please God. So, as long as God sees your faith as true, thats all that really matter. But does God need you to show him your work to convince Him? especially when He sees your heart.
God bless.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Expounding a new theological theory???
Psalms 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.
or are you saying that God cannot do what he wants???
..... actually.... got: http://www.carm.org/catholic/faithalone.htm, but this one is quite anti-catholic...
Last line in that link:
Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
Real faith will produce good works, but works is not part of the salvation process as can be seen in so many verses.
did i say we should be doing less....??? i said, the thief had a good deal.... we may be in a position to have that kind of deal too.... based on your faith/works combo move.... but i refer to http://www.carm.org/catholic/faithalone.htm again.
what so pathetic....?? i check whatever folks here share.... or you mean you don't check? and anyhow hantam.... but don't be shy lah.... you also google for methodist discipline to counter me.... i ever complain or not? but suddenly, decided you are not interested in John Wesley....
fact remains, that the sgforums is a faceless forum, i don't know your credentials, you don't know credentials.... you may be a theological scholar, a disgraced priest, or a cab driver. who knows....? i may be 16 yr old kid, or an 80 yr old man, or a ice cream seller.... again who knows.... eh... actually not true.... about 3 members here know me.
so we don't really have the theological credentials to go too deep, if i want to learn, i can read up, or i can google (which is cheaper). suggesting that we should google first is nothing to be ashamed about.... otherwise how i know that the catholic church also tithe, or that there are disgraced priests who molest choir boys.... or money grabbing pastors....
i googled and found nothing on faith (proven) or faith (unproven).... so how?
unproven to whom and proven to whom...???
Pathetic lah....already said so many times can accept your view on savlavtion by faith liao.....yet you go on and on and now even quote anti-cathoic links (yet claimed to be pro-catholic). I never quote any link that is anti-protestant or even from a catholic source...... and don't need to make partial quote to and reply out of context.
You seems to be the only one who says you never insist and yet always the one who wants to "win" and the one who wants to show he is "right".... yet you keep saying others is guilty of doing it.........???
Your actions here speaks fot itself.....
Nobody says cannot google or that it is a shame to do so.....
Nobody says that God never judge people of other faith on judgement day (in fact, He judge the all human beings) ..... etc...
Since when did we say we care if you are right or wrong?
And you don't have to tell us that you are not here to learn, discuss etc.....which you can google, go to bible school/class etc... We know you are here to argue and create bad feelings etc.....Your actions translate that clearly.....enough.
Finally, salvation is by faith and works since not doing works is to deny Christ and to deny Christ cannot claim to have faith in Him and it is a process (maybe 5 steps - I think but I don't subscribe to having steps 1,2,3....) .....hee....hee....hee......
Pathetic lah....and yes, very oxymoronic.........and as you rightly said - is pointless and meaningless......your input that is.
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Originally posted by vince69:
Generally speaking, yes, if one's faith is true, it will santify him in a way that he will have good works in his life. Now, on the other hand, having works or lack of it is not a good guage.
Let me explain... what I did not see, does not means its not there, it just means I did not see it.... I don't see good works in your life (heck, I have not even met you), does not means you have not done any good works, it simply means, I have not seen them.
The good news is, how I view your faith, does not matter and should not matter to you at all, for you are not ask to please all men, you only need to please God. So, as long as God sees your faith as true, thats all that really matter. But does God need you to show him your work to convince Him? especially when He sees your heart.
God bless.
Actually, I re-read your earlier post and I do agree when you said that God already knows when we profess our faith if we have true faith or not.....
and rightly so as we already agreed that true faith will lead to good works....
We also agreed that it is such faith - true faith that will be proven by the works.....and will save.
The only difference is, our views of the role of works....along the line, I think I have cleared up that works is not to add on to Christ finished work or replace the grace of God. Works really is just proof of our true faith in Christ....that we have lived our lifes as true faithful Christians according to God's Words (though we will fall short of His standard). Your belief is that one is "saved" at point of professing while we believe that it is a process (some protestant churches believed it is a process too) ending when we face the Lord in the last judgement.
God can see our heart and if we have true faith, that is good enough. But as we also agreed, true faith will bear fruits.....Of course, I can see your point that when one profess their faith (and God see that He has true faith in his heart) is enough to save him....and that makes works not a necessary part (in order not to be misquoted later by some trouble maker, this is my understanding from what you write only).
In fact, that could even mean that professing of faith is not a part because God can see our heart and we don't even need to say it - He knows......already.
But as in dumbdumb's example, a person may profess his faith but really has no interest....so his faith is essentially "untrue" which will not save him......
So what set me wondering - is his guy "saved" when he professed his faith since it was supposed to be so......yet he has really no interest. And if he continues to have no true faith in God, will he be "unsaved" ?
and all I want was an opinion on how that is explained - I believed there will be explanations......
At the end of the day, I may / may not be able to agree / accept the explanations but I know where it is coming from.....and hoping have a better understanding and piece up this salvation theory for my understanding.
As I said way before, there are many versions and we chose and accept which ever is most convincing to us.....and be 100% committed to it. And it is always good to understand alternative views...
Sad that some oxymoronic and unncessary arguments has happened due to some insecure people who is suspicious of others as a result of their own intentions.....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
sure.... it's okay, it's just an example....
however i do not agree with the last part.....
... without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.... can be equated to: people with God's love does not produce fruits or good works.....
... i think you once said, that God can inspire non-believers to do good works... but if these people do not love God, they should not be able to produce good works.....
... note that i am not disagreeing with the individual opinions.... but these two opinions are, imo, in conflict. interestingly, i am more incline to go with yours, because i believe everybody (including non-Christian) do good work, and if one need to put a reason to it, then one can say, that God inspires these people to do good work.
Jesus said in the last the last judgement that do it to the least of one of my brothers and sisiters and you have done it on me....something like that (lazy to chekc and quote exact verse).
So, if you agree that " everybody (including non-Christian) do good work, and if one need to put a reason to it, then one can say, that God inspires these people to do good work." then can we say that these people do love God (including non-Christian) and show it by their works even though they may not know God directly yet for some reasons.....
and in the case dumbdumb described, you said: "people with God's love does not produce fruits or good works....." What are you really trying to say? dumbdumb is trying to say that such a person show no true faith when professing faith and thus cannot be "saved"..... your take?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Nobody says cannot google or that it is a shame to do so.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:If that ( google is your best friend....) is really what you think, then why are you here?? OH, I forgot, you did mention you intention here before and your actions is proving it......ooops.... actions proving it.....
But answering that question I asked will automatically answer your question on proven faith. So using google as an excuse is pathetic.
Seriously, you are not interested in the answer which you already knew.....it's just your intentions......
ok i understand now..... it is not shameful to google, but to use google as an excuse is pathetic.... thanks for this enlightening note.... did i use google as an excuse...???
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Nobody says that God never judge people of other faith on judgement day (in fact, He judge the all human beings) ..... etc...
And you don't have to tell us that you are not here to learn, discuss etc.....which you can google, go to bible school/class etc... We know you are here to argue and create bad feelings etc.....Your actions translate that clearly.....enough.
Finally, salvation is by faith and works since not doing works is to deny Christ and to deny Christ cannot claim to have faith in Him and it is a process (maybe 5 steps - I think but I don't subscribe to having steps 1,2,3....) .....hee....hee....hee......
Pathetic lah....and yes, very oxymoronic.........and as you rightly said - is pointless and meaningless......your input that is.
of course we all wish to learn, but reality is, how much can we learn.... is this the best way to learn.... of course this depends on the kind of knowledge one wish to learn.
for example, do you think we can learn quantum physics at sgforums???
or where to get the best PSP deal???
of course it remains your prerogative as to whether sgforums is a good platform to learn the really deep stuff....
so on the assumption that i am still trying to learn... and i cannot find anything else that can help me....
what is faith (proven) and faith (unproven).... who to prove, and prove to who?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
ok i understand now..... it is not shameful to google, but to use google as an excuse is pathetic.... thanks for this enlightening note.... did i use google as an excuse...???
of course we all wish to learn, but reality is, how much can we learn.... is this the best way to learn.... of course this depends on the kind of knowledge one wish to learn.
for example, do you think we can learn quantum physics at sgforums???
or where to get the best PSP deal???
of course it remains your prerogative as to whether sgforums is a good platform to learn the really deep stuff....
so on the assumption that i am still trying to learn... and i cannot find anything else that can help me....
what is faith (proven) and faith (unproven).... who to prove, and prove to who?
We are talking about faith and works....and understanding of other's view on the theory which is different from ours. We not not here to learn quantum physics.....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Jesus said in the last the last judgement that do it to the least of one of my brothers and sisiters and you have done it on me....something like that (lazy to chekc and quote exact verse).
So, if you agree that " everybody (including non-Christian) do good work, and if one need to put a reason to it, then one can say, that God inspires these people to do good work." then can we say that these people do love God (including non-Christian) even though they may not know God directly yet for some reasons.....
and in the case dumbdumb described, you said: "people with God's love does not produce fruits or good works....." What are you really trying to say? dumbdumb is trying to say that such a person show no true faith when professing faith and thus cannot be "saved"..... your take?
actually it is not so much i agree or not... but if one goes on one particular trend of thought, the conclusion is such....
the first hypothesis is: man can do good work, and if man can only do good work because God inspires them.... therefore God did inspire them. Loving God was not part of this equation, because these people may not know God.... and these are people who are prompted by God to help others, to do charity.
the next hypothesis: if man can only do good work because the need to love God to do good work, then because they do not love God, all the works they do are not good works...
actually, i would not attempt to paraphase dumb2's post.... i take them at face value.... of dumb2 can explain them further, if he has the time.
i tend to go with the first hypothesis because there are non-believers who are capable of going to great length to do charity, yet they may either not know God or reject God, so if i have to put a reason to why they do good works, i'd say that's through the inspiration of God - however there is no way i can prove that either.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Consistent? Yes, in beating around the bushes....and still doing so...
and wondering what is salvation = faith leading to good works means......and the role of the works........
no issue to you because you keep reading out of context and playing with words.....
This is what I wrote so that you can think about what is the role of works in your salvation theory.....and your reply is below's quote.....