Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Aiyah....you still trying to go back to "how to measure and quantify" thing.......The issue is your claimed that there is no works involved.....I am saying to say that is being JUDGEMENTAL.....his last action is about not being silence and passive in the face of need, injustice and exploitation.....and thus he did not deny Christ.
As in your church doctrine:
"The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."It is not about good deal or bad deal lah!......But really, you think he only has 1 work to show (at least now better than none at the begining)? But do you just want to continue to be judgemental? It's up to you.....You are arguging for the sake of arguing because this clearly should not be used to support faith alone.
And yes, still the same reward even if he comes on the last day because God is generous and He is just. Do we need to be jealous about that or feel cheated (because we come earlier) because our rewards are the same?
Know nothing more or don't want to know more......?? Did we not already discussed about this and what the thief has done? Forget?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:you know, for someone who's going on about being quite sure i cannot answer them, is sure persistent in getting an answer...
you assume that there is no works to show... how can you be sure that there is no works to show. as you'd said, quantity is not the issue, so even someone as vile as the thief (who's sentence to death) you deem that he has good works to show. reality is, is it possible for one to live his entire life without good works to show... Christ had already said to those who don't even know they had done good deeds that He knows who had done such good deeds...
in the first place, who are you to determine what's "proven" and what's "unproven"? all we have is the our different stand as to whether we think works is part of salvation or not.... as i'd said, we all do good works regardless of where we stand....
if you think that just because i don't see good works as part of salvation, i don't do good works, then you are really judgemental.
Nobody says there are no different opinions....it is exactly that our opinions is not the same that I am seeking clarifications.......
You insist that works is not part of salvation so when professing faith, I am sure that works is not taken in. That means it contradicts what is agreed here (again maybe not you) that only true faith in Christ that has fruits / works to show saves....
If you are saying works is taken in, then works has a part which then contradict what you says....
Finally, you agreed that God will judge us on our last day and so who pass the judgement that one is "saved" on the day one professes one's faith?
To clarify, I quoted more of Paul and the other part of the Gospel than James and they all seems to agree.....and even your own church's doctrine says not doing good work is to deny Christ and you agreed that a person who deny Christ cannot claim to have faith in Christ.
And "if you think that just because i don't see good works as part of salvation, i don't do good works, then you are really judgemental." is something I never said or suggested that.
So, tell us how have you answered the questions......
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually the proven faith thing was, i believe, raised by you. prior to you introducing this new concept, i have not heard of it before. it is something that i don't understand and i hope you can explain it.... but it seems you had just recently said: And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
yes only God can judge.... who does God judge? what is the criteria for God's judgement?
No..... proven faith thing was raised by you.....all along we talk about true faith in Christ being proven by works / fruits as James is saying. True faith is thus proven if there is works.....like I said, you are just picking on words to play with and not wanting to read in context.
Even after explanations and telling you proven faith in this context simply refers to true faith in Christ that bear fruits / works, you are still harping on it......what more can I say?
Only God judge and his criteria is in the last judgement as I have quoted a few times....and right in the begining of this thread in the article quoted by vince69.
And if Only God can judge us on our last day, who then judge that one is "saved" on the day one professes one's faith?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Know nothing more or don't want to know more......?? Did we not already discussed about this and what the thief has done? Forget?
know nothing more.... i don't know the thief has done any good works aside for speaking out for Jesus... and as you said, quantity is not important.... so i reckon we are all quite safe.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Nobody says there are no different opinions....it is exactly that our opinions is not the same that I am seeking clarifications.......
You insist that works is not part of salvation so when professing faith, I am sure that works is not taken in. That means it contradicts what is agreed here (again maybe not you) that only true faith in Christ that has fruits / works to show saves....
If you are saying works is taken in, then works has a part which then contradict what you says....
Finally, you agreed that God will judge us on our last day and so who pass the judgement that one is "saved" on the day one professes one's faith?
To clarify, I quoted more of Paul and the other part of the Gospel than James and they all seems to agree.....and even your own church's doctrine says not doing good work is to deny Christ and you agreed that a person who deny Christ cannot claim to have faith in Christ.
And "if you think that just because i don't see good works as part of salvation, i don't do good works, then you are really judgemental." is something I never said or suggested that.
So, tell us how have you answered the questions......
as i'd said before, questions were answered, but if the answers were not to your liking, that is not really the issue.... but you had declared that you will not get answers from me, why are you still asking?
so "proven faith" prove to who? And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
You insist that works is not part of salvation so when professing faith, I am sure that works is not taken in. That means it contradicts what is agreed here (again maybe not you) that only true faith in Christ that has fruits / works to show saves....
i don't think i "insisted", i gave my opinion, like you give yours.....
i think what was agreed is - works is important.... i think dumb2 and vince69 had already shared that they also feel that works is not part of salvation.... so your "agreement" is with whom?
i do not believe that the agreement is fruits / works to show saves.
Finally, you agreed that God will judge us on our last day and so who pass the judgement that one is "saved" on the day one professes one's faith?
as i'd said, what is the judgement of God about? depending on who you are asking as theologians are also split on this one too.
And "if you think that just because i don't see good works as part of salvation, i don't do good works, then you are really judgemental." is something I never said or suggested that.
did you miss out the word "if".... okay i am putting it in BOLD.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:No..... proven faith thing was raised by you.....all along we talk about true faith in Christ being proven by works / fruits as James is saying. True faith is thus proven if there is works.....like I said, you are just picking on words to play with and not wanting to read in context.
Even after explanations and telling you proven faith in this context simply refers to true faith in Christ that bear fruits / works, you are still harping on it......what more can I say?
Only God judge and his criteria is in the last judgement as I have quoted a few times....and right in the begining of this thread in the article quoted by vince69.
And if Only God can judge us on our last day, who then judge that one is "saved" on the day one professes one's faith?
hmm.... i have not used the phrase "proven faith" before this thread. I shall go back a few pages and check....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:No where do I see anything that explains why faith (unproven yet with works) can saves.
In fact, it echoes my feelings that if there is no love (shown by works), one can claim anything they want.....that they are saved whatever....it means nothing. As I mentioned earlier, to do good work is to love God - not hair splitting moments.
Anyway, that's your contention which is fine with me. I am just wondering and still wondering why faith (unproven yet) can saves when we all agreed before that only true faith in Christ (that is proven by works) can saves....Perhaps, I'll never get any answer...
the concept of proven and unproven faith seems to start from this post... maybe even earlier.... at 3:07 pm....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
know nothing more.... i don't know the thief has done any good works aside for speaking out for Jesus... and as you said, quantity is not important.... so i reckon we are all quite safe.
Aiyah....quantity is not important but the state of your heart is as explained many times. If you think you meet the min quantity liao, ok, that's your choice.
I belived most of us would continue to love God and work because we truely loves Him in our heart.....not counting to meet some target doing hair splitting chores....and that will set true Christians and those who claimed to part.....
faith (unproven yet) or
true faith in Christ (that is proven by works) or
proven faith or
unproven faith...
against
And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
how does it all work....???
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
as i'd said before, questions were answered, but if the answers were not to your liking, that is not really the issue.... but you had declared that you will not get answers from me, why are you still asking?so "proven faith" prove to who? And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
i don't think i "insisted", i gave my opinion, like you give yours.....
i think what was agreed is - works is important.... i think dumb2 and vince69 had already shared that they also feel that works is not part of salvation.... so your "agreement" is with whom?
i do not believe that the agreement is fruits / works to show saves.
So, who judge on the day faith is profess???
And you saying faith without works (useless or dead in James's word) saves???
I think both dumbdumb and vince69 agrees that true faith in Christ that bears fruits and works saves....and anyone who claimed their faith may not have true faith in Christ if there are no works to show. Faith without works is dead / useless ....and you think dead faith saves?
Can you try to read the 2-3 situations that dumbdumd cited as examples??
Actually, I am now asking how that works.....faith with works proved faith is true in Christ and yet a faith without works (i.e. unproven to be true in Christ yet) saves? Something I did not get answer to......ins't it?
hmmmmm, so you don't insist that faith alone saves??
Originally posted by Chin Eng:did you miss out the word "if".... okay i am putting it in BOLD.
hmmm, what's the point of your statement? I believed that I quoted the entire statement from you in full including the "if"...........read carefully before you reply and do read slowly....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:faith (unproven yet) or
true faith in Christ (that is proven by works) or
proven faith or
unproven faith...
against
And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
how does it all work....???
Yes, all these simply means true faith or faith that is yet proven to be true....
how? By the works and fruits....
and it was you who started not to read in context and asking what is this proven faith about and going round and round....... till now.
Did I not state clearly what is that already? And you still trying to go round and round??
Then claimed that you have answered my questions liao - how can faith without works saves? And who pass the judgement on the day faith is profess??
Yes, no need to prove to anyone.....and God validates that on our last day.....do quote that statement too.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:hmmm, what's the point of your statement? I believed that I quoted the entire statement from you in full including the "if"...........read carefully before you reply and do read slowly....
the point is..... you declared: "is something I never said or suggested that." so if you have never said or suggested that, and my statement was preceded with "if".... meaning i did not say you had said or suggested.... what's the point of that declaration?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:yet proven to be true...
no need to prove to anyone...
quite oxymoron....
but since there is NO NEED TO PROVE TO ANYONE.... no issue liao....
there also cannot be any FAITH (UNPROVEN YET) ...
and as i'd said many pages ago... the conclusion is - God is the judge....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:the point is..... you declared: "is something I never said or suggested that." so if you have never said or suggested that, and my statement was preceded with "if".... meaning i did not say you had said or suggested.... what's the point of that declaration?
Actually, the question is why you write such a statement in the first place........?? Insinuation?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
quite oxymoron....but since there is NO NEED TO PROVE TO ANYONE.... no issue liao....
there also cannot be any FAITH (UNPROVEN YET) ...
and as i'd said many pages ago... the conclusion is - God is the judge....
Yes, God is the judge and no one dispute that with you.....and who pass the judgement when one profess the faith??
Of course it is oxymoronic and even pathetic to quote partial statements.....and make conclusions....
No need to prove to anyone but God validates it on our last day......
God validation is no issue to you....that's your choice, only 1 good deed and feel safe liao, also your choice.......
Faith (unproven yet) are those that has no fruits to show yet.....and go read example of dumbdumb.....
To claim answer liao yet no one can find the answer is oxymoronic at it's best.....!
The only contention for me now is :
"For your side, professing of faith is enough to saves....and one is saved simply by doing that. I accept that as your view.....no problem.
What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?
Again, I am not making personal attack or the theory.......I am only trying to make sense and logic out of this....perhaps, something is missing that will piece them up.....and that is why I am asking."
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, God is the judge and no one dispute that with you.....and who pass the judgement when one profess the faith??
Of course it is oxymoronic and even pathetic to quote partial statements.....and make conclusions....
No need to prove to anyone but God validates it on our last day......
God validation is no issue to you....that's your choice, only 1 good deed and feel safe liao, also your choice.......
Faith (unproven yet) are those that has no fruits to show yet.....and go read example of dumbdumb.....
To claim answer liao yet no one can find the answer is oxymoronic at it's best.....!
Faith (unproven yet) - unproven to whom???
Who decides whether there are fruits to show or not???
do you know the meaning of oxymoronic??? who's no one?? or only you??
it can be a wrong answer, an answer you don't understand, an answer that you don't agree to, an answer that you don't like.... but i have already give you an answer.....
Yes, God is the judge and no one dispute that with you.....and who pass the judgement when one profess the faith??
Who pass the judgement? God lah... you mean God cannot pass a judgement that a person is saved by faith alone? He not God? He cannot do that? He must ask you?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Faith (unproven yet) - unproven to whom???
Who decides whether there are fruits to show or not???do you know the meaning of oxymoronic??? who's no one?? or only you??
it can be a wrong answer, an answer you don't understand, an answer that you don't agree to, an answer that you don't like.... but i have already give you an answer.....
Who pass the judgement? God lah... you mean God cannot pass a judgement that a person is saved by faith alone? He not God? He cannot do that? He must ask you?
Wah....why so excited? I thought you agree that God judge us on our last day? Now, at professing also? If that's your asnwer, I accept (finally got answer) as you said, can be right or wrong or even I don't like.....but this is really the first time you answered.
No need to prove faith to anyone but that's about being a Christian right? (To live our life to serve and love God) ....And we agreed (maybe except you again) that fruits / works is what tells them apart....and I also gave you a few other examples in earlier replies....and still wants to go round the bush?
Who decides? I thought you agreed is God? And God will validate it on our last day....
And yes, pathetic in trying to quote partial and out of context....and oxymoroic is when you quote something and it really means something else....like you always do.
And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
God is the judge....
The way to them apart is from fruits or works.... yet God is the judge....
so at the end of the day, whatever you think you see as fruits or works.... God is still the judge....
basically it means that regardless of what opinion you have another person, it is immaterial, and whatever conclusion you make of that person is pointless, because only God is the judge.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Wah....why so excited? I thought you agree that God judge us on our last day? Now, at professing also? If that's your asnwer, I accept (finally got answer) as you said, can be right or wrong or even I don't like.....but this is really the first time you answered.
No need to prove faith to anyone but that's about being a Christian right? (To live our life to serve and love God) ....And we agreed (maybe except you again) that fruits / works is what tells them apart....and I also gave you a few other examples in earlier replies....and still wants to go round the bush?
Who decides? I thought you agreed is God? And God will validate it on our last day....
And yes, pathetic in trying to quote partial and out of context....and oxymoroic is when you quote something and it really means something else....like you always do.
why do you assume i am excited...???
i have always said that God is the final judge... haven't you been reading? should i also go back and refer to my post??? a few pages back???
my answer has always been quite consistent.... please quote me if i had not been consistent....
No need to prove faith to anyone but that's about being a Christian right? (To live our life to serve and love God)
so there's nothing in that faith (unproven) and faith (proven) issue afterall???
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Wah....why so excited? I thought you agree that God judge us on our last day? Now, at professing also? If that's your asnwer, I accept (finally got answer) as you said, can be right or wrong or even I don't like.....but this is really the first time you answered.
on the contrary, i'd said it a few times before.....
and even long before the two post below...
... but the crux of the matter is verse 15: God can do and whatever he wants, and if by that it means that just having faith is sufficient, who are you to argue with it? And if you want an answer to the question of how faith without works can save.... the answer is: as long as God is happy about it, what are you going to do? To paraphrase: Not happy? Too bad!
31 Jan: 11:27 pm
Matt 20:15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
1 Feb, 9:45 am
Originally posted by Chin Eng:on the contrary, i'd said it a few times before.....
and even long before the two post below...
31 Jan: 11:27 pm
1 Feb, 9:45 am
Clear example of being oxymoronic....nothing to suggest how faith withoutr works can saves.... and who make the judgement when professing faith.... Yet claimed that answer liao.....
story about workers first is just about God is fair and reward is the same.....nothing to do with my questions....as explained before in details.....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:why do you assume i am excited...???
i have always said that God is the final judge... haven't you been reading? should i also go back and refer to my post??? a few pages back???
my answer has always been quite consistent.... please quote me if i had not been consistent....
so there's nothing in that faith (unproven) and faith (proven) issue afterall???
Consistent? Yes, in beating around the bushes....and still doing so...
and wondering what is salvation = faith leading to good works means......and the role of the works........
no issue to you because you keep reading out of context and playing with words.....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
The way to them apart is from fruits or works.... yet God is the judge....
so at the end of the day, whatever you think you see as fruits or works.... God is still the judge....
basically it means that regardless of what opinion you have another person, it is immaterial, and whatever conclusion you make of that person is pointless, because only God is the judge.
hmm....seems like reading out of context is becoming a habit....
God judge us based on the fruits / works as a result (proof) of our faith as He described in the last judgement......
Who is juding and trying to make conclusions??? Perhaps you and the contention is really to explain:
how faith without works can "saves" as we (maybe again except you) that only true faith in Christ that is proven / bear fruits / works cxan saves.....if you disagree with this (about only true faith saves), then the question is for for you.....if you agree then explains how faith without works can saves.....
and since we agreed (maybe now not...) that God judge us on our last day (and I keep telling you that He validate us on the last day) and based on our works / fruits as described in the last judgement, then who make judgement when we profess our faith....
and you answered only once and I acknowledge it....and later, I will ask you how that works.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Clear example of being oxymoronic....nothing to suggest how faith withoutr works can saves.... and who make the judgement when professing faith.... Yet claimed that answer liao.....
story about workers first is just about God is fair and reward is the same.....nothing to do with my questions....as explained before in details.....
correct, reward is the same, regardless of how much you work....
or how little, basically, the issue, you can't complain because God will do what he wants.....