faith & works
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
what's (as Christians) and what's (convert Christian)? Everyone's a convert Christian nowadays. Yeah, same salvation.... some don't need to do too much....
Correct lah......but some converted earlier than others mah...like that also want to pick on? Aiyah..... Same salvation and same condition - have faith that is true in Christ which can only be one that has works / fruits.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
One of the distinctive insights which the Methodist Church inherited from its founder, John Wesley, is a comprehensive view of the grace of God. Pervasive in all of creation, grace reveals God’s purpose to heal and restore humanity from the disorder of sin.......................John Wesley defined grace as........................ grace of God is essentially undivided, the saving activity of grace can be seen in these five phases of the work of the Holy Spirit:.................................. in the meantime, i believe i am going through the 5 different phases....
hmmmm, actually, I never asked for methodist doctrines.....and I don't see how that has answered my questions. I hope you are not trying to hint to me that when I profess my faith, I am "saved" because John Wesley said so or he made that judgement .........
I have really don't care much about what Mr John Wesley thinks or define although it seems like he is saying that salvation has 5 phases and not a one-off event. It also seems like he agrees that salvation is a process.....something we are trying to explain here......
I rather believed in God and what He says.....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
but at the end of the day, "proven faith" can only be proven in the face of God.... by then, we are not able to look at each other and say "naa naa naa po po", see i told ja so..... (sorry, more funny stuff)
so what "proven faith" are we talking about while we are roaming the earth?
as i said, everything hinges on what happens in front of God.... and by then, it does not matter to each other which way it swings....
Exactly so that true faith is proven in the face of God, no one can claimed to be saved as having received eternal life.....not until one hears the judgement from God.
No....it will not be funny to say "naa naa naa po po" to you then.........
Although true faith can only be proven in the face of God whom will decide, it does not means that we can ignore it....while roaming on earth. This is the time we should live out our faith and do what Jesus taught us to......otherwsie, being a Christian is meaningless.......
Even though everything hinges on what happens in front of God, Jesus has painted a clear picture to us in the last judgement and His Gospel. God is fair and He made it known to us how we are judge on our last day. The onus is for us to follow and attain eternal life with Him.....
If you agree that God is the only judge and will decide, then how can one claimed to be saved?
When judgement is done on the last day, how can we tell who has true faith? If I understand enough here, we agree is by his works / fruits.....
So didn't salvation by faith and works (as fruits of our faith and not to add on to Christ finsih work or replace grace) now make some sense?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
reality of the matter is:
if anyone truly wish to learn about salvation with or without works, one can always google.... there are plenty of websites promoting both views.
i tried to google "proven faith" and mostly the hits are about a book written by one guy... so i still don't know what "proven faith" is....
can anyone else comment on this?
Actually, we are talking about true faith which we already agreed is one that has works to show or fruits. This is what is being used to prove one's true faith in Christ. Unless you want to deviate and change the subject to what is proven faith......against what we are really trying to establish here - that only faith saves.....one that is true in Christ with works / fruits as proof.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
the thief.... but then again, i believe catholic doctrine considers that as an unique case.hmmm...I didn't know that? Is there a doctrine on the thief?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?
Again, I am not making personal attack or the theory.......I am only trying to make sense and logic out of this....perhaps, something is missing that will piece them up.....and that is why I am asking.
So far, nothing you wrote have given me any answer to the above 2 questions. You are just going round and round beating the bushes......but why not try a direct answer?
I already explained many times that we all agreed that we are saved by faith but real question is what faith? Any faith or one that is true in Christ which we agreed (again maybe not you) that is one that has works (done with our hearts) or fruits to show (as proof) ?
Don't mistaken, I am not asking you to answer..... if you can't.....it's ok.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Nowhere did the story tell us that the theif did not do any good works......and to says he has not done any (in his life) is just being judgemental. What you quoted in red is to says that the thieves desrve to die but Christ have done nothing wrong and should not even be at the cross.....
And the fact that he stood up for Jesus and speak out on what is right is already a good deed in itself............
quite a good deal if you ask me, just one phrase and kenna saved.... so maybe we all should be like that too.
just like the workers who got hired at the end of the day, still rewarded the same way....Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Correct lah......but some converted earlier than others mah...like that also want to pick on? Aiyah..... Same salvation and same condition - have faith that is true in Christ which can only be one that has works / fruits.
Matt20: 9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
seems for the same reward, some don't need to work too hard. The focus are the pay (the reward) - which is the same, and the work to be done (which varies from worker to worker)....
.... but the crux of the matter is verse 15: God can do and whatever he wants, and if by that it means that just having faith is sufficient, who are you to argue with it? And if you want an answer to the question of how faith without works can save.... the answer is: as long as God is happy about it, what are you going to do? To paraphrase: Not happy? Too bad!
it has nothing to do with early Christians or later Christians, our lifespan is about the same. If it is, then i sure pity the catholics, the early Christians, because first will be last (verse 16)....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Exactly so that true faith is proven in the face of God, no one can claimed to be saved as having received eternal life.....not until one hears the judgement from God.
so after all these, "proven faith" is still something intangible that can only be proven in the face of God????
isn't that what i've been saying all along, that the conclusion of all these is - God is the judge?
till then, prove what?
prove to each other? can't be done now.... in heaven? no point, we are not privy to the final meeting, even if we are so what?
prove to God? no need, God knows.
prove to self? too late....
so still, what's this "proven faith" all about....?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
quite a good deal if you ask me, just one phrase and kenna saved.... so maybe we all should be like that too.
just like the workers who got hired at the end
of the day, still rewarded the same way....Aiyah....you still trying to go back to "how to measure and quantify" thing.......The issue is your claimed that there is no works involved.....I am saying to say that is being JUDGEMENTAL.....his last action is about not being silence and passive in the face of need, injustice and exploitation.....and thus he did not deny Christ.
As in your church doctrine:
"The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."It is not about good deal or bad deal lah!......But really, you think he only has 1 work to show (at least now better than none at the begining)? But do you just want to continue to be judgemental? It's up to you.....You are arguging for the sake of arguing because this clearly should not be used to support faith alone.
And yes, still the same reward even if he comes on the last day because God is generous and He is just. Do we need to be jealous about that or feel cheated (because we come earlier) because our rewards are the same?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
seems for the same reward, some don't need to work too hard. The focus are the pay (the reward) - which is the same, and the work to be done (which varies from worker to worker)....
.... but the crux of the matter is verse 15: God can do and whatever he wants, and if by that it means that just having faith is sufficient, who are you to argue with it? And if you want an answer to the question of how faith without works can save.... the answer is: as long as God is happy about it, what are you going to do? To paraphrase: Not happy? Too bad!
it has nothing to do with early Christians or later Christians, our lifespan is about the same. If it is, then i sure pity the catholics, the early Christians, because first will be last (verse 16)....
It merely says that those who came early or later given the same reward, the agreed reward...it does not says about one working harder than the other.....maybe one work longer hours than the others.....not work harder work less hard....etc.... (still trying how to measure and quantify?)
Faith without works cannot saves (we - maybe except you have agreed) and are you suggesting that God is not being fair to everyone and that God is not just?
Or are you suggesting that salvation is about claiming to have faith and leave it up to God's fancy (if He is happy or unhappy) if He wants to save you or not?
Then what about the part of your salvation theory (since you claimed yours the same as dumbdumb and vince69) that it will lead to good works ? Or that faith that is true in Christ will bear fruits?
Or perhaps you are saying that Paul is teaching just say it (or just claimed to have faith) and you are saved and then you don't even have to care if your faith is real or not.....?? Or do you think he preaches that we have true faith in God?
Who is first and who is last is not about Catholic or non-Catholics....go read who this parable is for....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
so after all these, "proven faith" is still something intangible that can only be proven in the face of God????
isn't that what i've been saying all along, that the conclusion of all these is - God is the judge?
till then, prove what?
prove to each other? can't be done now.... in heaven? no point, we are not privy to the final meeting, even if we are so what?
prove to God? no need, God knows.
prove to self? too late....
so still, what's this "proven faith" all about....?
Intangible? Doing good work is intangible? Giving up your seat to a child, helping an old lady cross the road and helping your colleague carry heavy stuff is intangible?
"till then, prove what?" - Answer is so simple isn't it? To prove that one is a true Christian and that one is doing Jesus commandment......then why you claim you are doing good works then?
Even if God knows, are you saying that since He knows that you have true faith in Him, you don't have to do good works? God will know means it does not need to lead to good works? And what are these good works for? Good trees bear good fruits lah.....how would a good tree (if taken care properly) not have good fruits to show? I think inside your bible got something like that also......
Jesus has told us how He will judge us at the last judgement (not privy to final meeting?) .....and what are His commandment and we are simply doing that (His commandment) because we have true faith in Him and we do good works because we love Him....from our hearts. Good works is no hair splitting chores if you have true faith in Christ. No need to ask for discount - the more you do, the happier you are because the more you love Him.....and the more you are blessed.
So, you can go on about this "proven faith" thing to try distract attention to questions that you still have no answers to......and again, you don't have to answer if you can't and you don't need to try distract away from it......
And since you agreed that God makes the judgement on our last day, then how can one claimed to be saved when professing one's faith and who made that judgement?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
For your side, professing of faith is enough to saves....and one is saved simply by doing that. I accept that as your view.....no problem.
What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?
Again, I am not making personal attack or the theory.......I am only trying to make sense and logic out of this....perhaps, something is missing that will piece them up.....and that is why I am asking.
You are still beating round the bushes, I will repeat my questions again so that if you wishes to, you can try reply straight to the point......
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
As in your church doctrine:
"The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."i already ask you to contact the Methodist church if you are interested to clarify the Methodist discipline.... but you already said you are not interested..
for a guy who does not really wish to learn about the Methodist discipline you sure like to quote it a lot....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Intangible? Doing good work is intangible? Giving up your seat to a child, helping an old lady cross the road and helping your colleague carry heavy stuff is intangible?
"till then, prove what?" - Answer is so simple isn't it? To prove that one is a true Christian and that one is doing Jesus commandment......then why you claim you are doing good works then?
Even if God knows, are you saying that since He knows that you have true faith in Him, you don't have to do good works? God will know means it does not need to lead to good works? And what are these good works for? Good trees bear good fruits lah.....how would a good tree (if taken care properly) not have good fruits to show? I think inside your bible got something like that also......
Jesus has told us how He will judge us at the last judgement (not privy to final meeting?) .....and what are His commandment and we are simply doing that (His commandment) because we have true faith in Him and we do good works because we love Him....from our hearts. Good works is no hair splitting chores if you have true faith in Christ. No need to ask for discount - the more you do, the happier you are because the more you love Him.....and the more you are blessed.
So, you can go on about this "proven faith" thing to try distract attention to questions that you still have no answers to......and again, you don't have to answer if you can't and you don't need to try distract away from it......
And since you agreed that God makes the judgement on our last day, then how can one claimed to be saved when professing one's faith and who made that judgement?
hmmm.... did i say good works is intangible?I said "so after all these, "proven faith" is still something intangible that can only be proven in the face of God????"
"proven faith" is intangible because inspite of ALL THE GOOD WORKS (which you already said, is tangible, you cannot measure the heart, which only God knows.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You are still beating round the bushes, I will repeat my questions again so that if you wishes to, you can try reply straight to the point......
but you had already said that you don't think i will or can answer those questions, so why keep repeating it....
but also, i think i have already answered them, however satisfaction is not guaranteed...
but in case you wish for me to do likewise, repeat, i can: God can reward and give to anyone anything he pleases, if it pleases him that salvation is through faith, it's good enough for me.
Matt 20: 9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
on the same passage, it is obvious that those who got employed early thinks that they were doing more than those who were hired at the last hour.
It merely says that those who came early or later given the same reward, the agreed reward...it does not says about one working harder than the other.....maybe one work longer hours than the others.....not work harder work less hard....etc.... (still trying how to measure and quantify?)
it is quite clear that those who were hired first feel that they had work harder than those hired at the last hour..... otherwise complain for what?
again, i still don't understand "proven faith"....
just explain how does it work: ie how to prove and prove to who.... you need to prove it to somebody... otherwise why is it "PROVEN faith"?
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nobody has said that works is unimportant.... i think all have agreed that good works important in the life of a Christian.
does it offend some people that there are others who feel that good works is not part of salvation?
you think good works is part of salvation - you do good works.
you think good works is NOT part of salvation - you also do good works...
at the end of the day, everybody does good works....
so how important is it to each other as to where we position "good works", in the grand scale of things, does it matter? if it does matter, why does it matter?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i already ask you to contact the Methodist church if you are interested to clarify the Methodist discipline.... but you already said you are not interested..
for a guy who does not really wish to learn about the Methodist discipline you sure like to quote it a lot....
I said I am not interested in whay one man says or define but never said I am not interested in Methodist disciple.......
My quote was firstly to enlighten your load for doing good works and now to show you how this can be applied in the case of the thief....whom I think you have not been fair to....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
hmmm.... did i say good works is intangible?I said "so after all these, "proven faith" is still something intangible that can only be proven in the face of God????"
"proven faith" is intangible because inspite of ALL THE GOOD WORKS (which you already said, is tangible, you cannot measure the heart, which only God knows.
Aiyah...."proven faith" is a classic example of not wanting to read in context and picking on words to play with......It is not that you don't undertsand but you just don't want to .......
Already said that faith is one proven by the fruits / works and proven faith = true faith lor....
So, how can it be intangible when works are tangible and that proved that you have true faith?
And again, no one ask you to measure what...........? And cannot measure does not means can forget about it.....That's God's commandment and part of life as Christians....(maybe not for you?)
If you want to measure, how to measure the faith when one profess their faith in order to be "saved"?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
I said I am not interested in whay one man says or define but never said I am not interested in Methodist disciple.......
My quote was firstly to enlighten your load for doing good works and now to show you how this can be applied in the case of the thief....whom I think you have not been fair to....
since the methodist discipline was based on John Wesley works, you are not interested in what one man says or define, but you never said you are not interested in the methodist discipline.... so you are you interested in the methodist discipline or not???wait a minute.... you never said you are not interested in Methodist DISCIPLE? which disciple????
i don't think the thief cares whether i am fair to him or not. anyway he's already in heaven....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
but in case you wish for me to do likewise, repeat, i can: God can reward and give to anyone anything he pleases, if it pleases him that salvation is through faith, it's good enough for me.
Matt 20: 9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
on the same passage, it is obvious that those who got employed early thinks that they were doing more than those who were hired at the last hour.
it is quite clear that those who were hired first feel that they had work harder than those hired at the last hour..... otherwise complain for what?
Aiyah, people feel jealous and God tell us it is wrong.....No matter what, as long as you are given what you have been promised, it is fair. God is fair to all.....
So if you want to be clever and thinking work more or less still same rewards, then work less is better deal....then it is your choice....
To me that's one way to tell apart if one's heart is truely with Christ....why should you want to work less (and love Christ less) if you are a true believer? If one loves God, one wants to serve and do more...........not less.......(see can prove what....)
And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
I have said many times that I agreed that salvation is by faith but only true faith that has works to show.......Faith with works is dead!
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Aiyah...."proven faith" is a classic example of not wanting to read in context and picking on words to play with......It is not that you don't undertsand but you just don't want to .......
Already said that faith is one proven by the fruits / works and proven faith = true faith lor....
So, how can it be intangible when works are tangible and that proved that you ahve true faith?
And again, no one ask you to measure what...........? And cannot measure does not means can forget about it.....That's God's commandment and part of life as Christians....(maybe not for you?)
If you want to measure, how to measure the faith when one profess their faith in order to be "saved"?
you know, i just googled...
immeasurable faith - got lots of stuff....
immeasurable works - got zilch.
you might wish to check with your priests.... can you measure faith and can you measure works...
yeah, i know what you are saying: Already said that faith is one proven by the fruits / works and proven faith = true faith lor....
i am asking how is this executed: who proves it, who to prove it to, who validates it?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
it this the "proven faith" you are talking about? -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
but you had already said that you don't think i will or can answer those questions, so why keep repeating it....
but also, i think i have already answered them, however satisfaction is not guaranteed...
You never answered the questions lah.....you keep going at things we already agreed upon.
Question 1
What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
Question 2
Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?
You keep talking abour proven faith and nothing about who made the judgement for those who claimed to have been saved.....(since you agree God will judge on our last day) and how can faith without works yet saves.....when we (maybe except you) agrees that only true faith in Christ proven by works saves......
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
you know, i just googled...
immeasurable faith - got lots of stuff....
immeasurable works - got zilch.
you might wish to check with your priests.... can you measure faith and can you measure works...
yeah, i know what you are saying: Already said that faith is one proven by the fruits / works and proven faith = true faith lor....
i am asking how is this executed: who proves it, who to prove it to, who validates it?
For you try ISO or something like that ..................
for me, it is about being a Christian and love for God (who loves me more). God executes it (because He touches me).....I prove that I have faith in Him and loves Him.......I proved it with my faith (that bear works / fruits) that I am sincere and truely converted in my hearts (not merely claimed to be) and God will validates it on my last day......
Again, you are the one that keeps talking about "how to measure and quantify"......and you will go on talking about it..........because you missed the point that it is about living our life as true Christians (true disciple of CHrist who listen to His words and act on it) and it can only comes from the heart of a true disciple.......
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
it this the "proven faith" you are talking about?No lah......quote correctly as below.....
"Aiyah...."proven faith" is a classic example of not wanting to read in context and picking on words to play with......It is not that you don't undertsand but you just don't want to .......
Already said that faith is one proven by the fruits / works and proven faith = true faith lor....
So, how can it be intangible when works are tangible and that proved that you have true faith?
And again, no one ask you to measure what...........? And cannot measure does not means can forget about it.....That's God's commandment and part of life as Christians....(maybe not for you?)
If you want to measure, how to measure the faith when one profess their faith in order to be "saved"?"
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
since the methodist discipline was based on John Wesley works, you are not interested in what one man says or define, but you never said you are not interested in the methodist discipline.... so you are you interested in the methodist discipline or not???wait a minute.... you never said you are not interested in Methodist DISCIPLE? which disciple????
i don't think the thief cares whether i am fair to him or not. anyway he's already in heaven....
"Pai say" typo error......and now I will change words.....should be discipline....
I am interested in the methodist discipline as in the faith they teach......
But now, you seems to tell me that methodist dsicipline is based on John Wesley works alone, then maybe I think twice.....
Of course the thief don't care but at least we know now something more........a little more truth.....
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you know, for someone who's going on about being quite sure i cannot answer them, is sure persistent in getting an answer...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You never answered the questions lah.....you keep going at things we already agreed upon.
Question 1
What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
you assume that there is no works to show... how can you be sure that there is no works to show. as you'd said, quantity is not the issue, so even someone as vile as the thief (who's sentence to death) you deem that he has good works to show. reality is, is it possible for one to live his entire life without good works to show... Christ had already said to those who don't even know they had done good deeds that He knows who had done such good deeds...
in the first place, who are you to determine what's "proven" and what's "unproven"? all we have is the our different stand as to whether we think works is part of salvation or not.... as i'd said, we all do good works regardless of where we stand....
if you think that just because i don't see good works as part of salvation, i don't do good works, then you are really judgemental.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Question 2
Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?
You keep talking abour proven faith and nothing about who made the judgement for those who claimed to have been saved.....(since you agree God will judge on our last day) and how can faith without works yet saves.....when we (maybe except you) agrees that only true faith in Christ proven by works saves......
actually the proven faith thing was, i believe, raised by you. prior to you introducing this new concept, i have not heard of it before. it is something that i don't understand and i hope you can explain it.... but it seems you had just recently said: And God is fair and He knows our hearts.......no need to prove to anyone but must be true to ourselves and God.
yes only God can judge.... who does God judge? what is the criteria for God's judgement?
some say it's between believers and unbelievers,
others say it's believers on their deeds that will determine their rewards (not their salvation),
there are probably other opinions too...
my opinion? i believe God will judge between the believers and unbelievers, within the believers, God will judge the deeds I have done and determine my reward.
there are various explanation in the "difference" between what Paul wrote in Ephesians and what James had written.... because neither side can prove that they are 100% correct, it is useless to counter each other.... you have your James and I have my Paul.... I can only share on the passage that is relevant to me, just like how you can share on the passage that is relevant to you....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
"Pai say" typo error......and now I will change words.....should be discipline....
I am interested in the methodist discipline as in the faith they teach......
But now, you seems to tell me that methodist dsicipline is based on John Wesley works alone, then maybe I think tiwice.....
Of course the thief don't care but at least we know now something more........a little more truth.....
seeing that John Wesley is the founder of the Methodist movement.... you think that the Methodist discipline is based on him? but you seem to add the word "alone", which i had never claimed....i have found typing a little slower helped, plus try to remember to check before posting.... dsicipline?
what more did we know about the thief? he is a sentenced to death, he admitted that his crime deserved to be sentenced as such.... there were no records of him doing good works.... aside from voicing out against the other thief.... we know Christ promised him a place in heaven....
we know nothing more....