faith & works
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
just wondering.... if God is the judge....
the proving of the faith (with works) is for whom to see? who is to say that because a guy did some real nice good work today, is deemed to have proven faith....
if a faith is unproven, it also for whom to validate?
is there a body of theologians and bible scholars to conduct this validation process?
who are we to say who has proven faith and who does not have proven faith...
if at the end of the day God is the judge.
If you are thinking that you need to do (good works) and prove for others to see......then it's up to you.
To me, this is how I know that I am living a correct Christian life that will be pleasing to God......and to know that I strive to love Him more and more each day......
You seems to be obessed with if a guy do some good work today, not tomorrow etc.... perhaps, you never will comprehen that being a Christian is a life long thing and not a one off issue. Doing good works must come from the heart who love Christ and part of being a Christian (so that it is not hair splitting chore). So what if someone do one today and none yesterday? How does it affect? God judge your life based on a day? Or are you saying do or not is ok because one is already saved anyway?
If faith is unproven, it is just that - uproven and no fruits......yet. Therefore, cannot save yet as only true faith (that bear fruits) saves - something we agreed (maybe not you). If you need validation, try ISO...(hope this is not another attemp to go back to measure and quantify good works.....)?? I think most of us don't need....
We know that we have proven faith if we have good works (done with our heart) to show....
Yes, at the end, God will judge and does that means we do nothing.....?? How does it change (that in the end God judge) with the fact that we must have faith in Him?? True faith that is....one with fruits or works.....
If you agree only God judge, then how can you claimed to have been "saved" ? Did you pass this judgement yourself or your pastor? Should it not come from God? This is not a personal attack but something that I really wonder..... and that is why I have the next question below......
Still, you did not answer how can a faith (unproven by works yet) can save and how one can claimed to have been saved by such faith?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i am not in the habit of attacking of other churches' doctrinal stand even if such stand disagrees with my personal conviction. Note too, that i have not used a single anti-catholic link in any of my replies.but you did try to paint a negative picture of the Catholic Church with your "creative contract and fine print" thing.....
Of course the impression you try to create is false.....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
but you did try to paint a negative picture of the Catholic Church with your "creative contract and fine print" thing.....
Of course the impression you try to create is false.....
nope.... it was an analogy.... like the car and petrol thing, the singaporean and ic thing...we ARE talking about works and faith aren't we not? the analogy was not targeted at your church, stop being so sensitive. as a matter of fact, the image in my mind when i wrote that was a protestant evangelical rally. i have no idea how a catholic rally is conducted.
can you quote something that i'd said that was explicitly negative to the catholic church... ?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Yes, at the end, God will judge and does that means we do nothing.....?? How does it change (that in the end God judge) with the fact that we must have faith in Him?? True faith that is....one with fruits or works.....
If you agree only God judge, then how can you claimed to have been "saved" ? Did you pass this judgement yourself or your pastor? Should it not come from God? This is not a personal attack but something that I really wonder..... and that is why I have the next question below......
Still, you did not answer how can a faith (unproven by works yet) can save and how one can claimed to have been saved by such faith?
hmmm... did i say we do nothing? where in the world did you come to this conclusion? i am saying, which ever way we swing, whether we think works is part of salvation or not... the end is God is our judge....
hmmm... i am not question my own belief nor am i question yours..... in my belief, i am saved. my pastor never said that i am saved... because when i converted, i was NOT from this church.... in fact, i don't even remember the pastor who presided that event... point is.... i don't think i need to prove to anyone that i am saved. if you think that i am not saved, it is ok with me, because to me, my salvation is between me and God.i am just asking a question: what is "proven faith"??? let me lighten the burden for you, i am not asking YOU specifically....
when the term is PROVEN FAITH, i'd assume that there is someone to prove, and someone to provide the validation...
so to whom do we prove to? who can validated if one has proven faith? what are the criteria? is it a self declaration - kinda like: i got proven faith because i do good deeds.
as i'd said, i wasn't asking YOU specifically....
so if anyone one else who can help me understand, please do so.
Still, you did not answer how can a faith (unproven by works yet) can save and how one can claimed to have been saved by such faith?
hmm, i thought i had answered this one....
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
actually gramatically speaking, quite clear.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
nope.... it was an analogy.... like the car and petrol thing, the singaporean and ic thing...we ARE talking about works and faith aren't we not? the analogy was not targeted at your church, stop being so sensitive. as a matter of fact, the image in my mind when i wrote that was a protestant evangelical rally. i have no idea how a catholic rally is conducted.
can you quote something that i'd said that was explicitly negative to the catholic church... ?
sensitive? No lah....I never said that your car and ic thing is trying to piant a negative picture but your "creative contract and fine print" thing did.....to me and is not the first time I voice this out.....but first time you denying it.....
If you said you are refering to "a protestant evangelical rally" and not the Catholic Church, then ok.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
hmmm... did i say we do nothing? where in the world did you come to this conclusion? i am saying, which ever way we swing, whether we think works is part of salvation or not... the end is God is our judge....
hmmm... i am not question my own belief nor am i question yours..... in my belief, i am saved. my pastor never said that i am saved... because when i converted, i was NOT from this church.... in fact, i don't even remember the pastor who presided that event... point is.... i don't think i need to prove to anyone that i am saved. if you think that i am not saved, it is ok with me, because to me, my salvation is between me and God.i am just asking a question: what is "proven faith"??? let me lighten the burden for you, i am not asking YOU specifically....
when the term is PROVEN FAITH, i'd assume that there is someone to prove, and someone to provide the validation...
so to whom do we prove to? who can validated if one has proven faith? what are the criteria? is it a self declaration - kinda like: i got proven faith because i do good deeds.
as i'd said, i wasn't asking YOU specifically....
Talking about sensitive? I stated clearly that this is not a personal attack so read the reply in context.....
I am not attacking you saying that you are saved etc.....
I am asking about the logic and trying to understand how faith that is yet proven true can saves......and how can one claimed to be saved by such faith.
We did agree (again, maybe not you) that only true faith in Christ (that has fruits or works to show) that saves....
I am not asking you to prove you are saved......I am asking you if that is not a judgement that will be done by God as you agreed?
You can read balance of the my reply (which you did not quote in your reply) to answer the balance questions.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Talking about sensitive? I stated clearly that this is not a personal attack so read the reply in context.....
I am not attacking you saying that you are saved etc.....
I am asking about the logic and trying to understand how faith that is yet proven true can saves......and how can one claimed to be saved by such faith.
We did agree (again, maybe not you) that only true faith in Christ (that has fruits or works to show) that saves....
I am not asking you to prove you are saved......I am asking you if that is not a judgement that will be done by God as you agreed?
You can read balance of the my reply (which you did not quote in your reply) to answer the balance questions.
where did i say you were being personal.... you asked a question about my conversion, and i thought it is only polite to answer, otherwise you think i am avoiding your question... you obviously are thinking about my spiritual standing, afterall you had asked this about me a few times.... so i said, it does not matter what you think (i am not being arrogant, but being a matter of fact)
the text in red above.... we agreed....
so what's the point with the "proven faith" thing?
how to prove? by works, right?
but the proof does not show the heart (the attitude), so it remains unproven, because only God knows the heart, right?
so what's "proven faith", how to prove, to whom to prove to, and who can validate that it is proven....?
footnote: i am not questioning catholic beliefs and practices.... in case i am misunderstood again.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
hmm, i thought i had answered this one....
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
actually gramatically speaking, quite clear.
Of course it has not been replied...I agree with what you have quoted but it does not answer the question.
In simple terms, the Eph 2:8 tell us that we are saved by the grace of God through faith. This grace comes about because of Christ sacrifies on the cross. We all agreed on that and there was never a dispute here. There is nothing we can do (any works) to replace this grace as a result of Christ sacrifies......a gift from God.
I think you must have mistaken that we think good works is used to replace the fact of Christ sacrifies on the cross.....or to replace grace. It is not ........
Salvation is freely avaiable to ALL HUMAN who desires to have them and possible only because of Christ.
To attain salvations, there are conditions (which never changes the fact that it is free and by grace of God) - for you faith alone .... and for me faith and works (which makes that true faith in Christ).
Good works is the fruits of true faith and only such faith (with good works) can saves....
Basically, I agree we are talking about the same thing - that we are saved by our faith in God. The only difference is that we believed that we are saved by true faith (that has works to show) on judgement day.....a process that start when we profess our faith. Or simply, I define what is faith...the true faith that saves....
For your side, professing of faith is enough to saves....and one is saved simply by doing that. I accept that as your view.....no problem.
What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?
Again, I am not making personal attack or the theory.......I am only trying to make sense and logic out of this....perhaps, something is missing that will piece them up.....and that is why I am asking.
So, my questions remained and I have yet to get an answer .......hope this is clearer now to you.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
where did i say you were being personal.... you asked a question about my conversion, and i thought it is only polite to answer, otherwise you think i am avoiding your question... you obviously are thinking about my spiritual standing, afterall you had asked this about me a few times.... so i said, it does not matter what you think (i am not being arrogant, but being a matter of fact)
the text in red above.... we agreed....
so what's the point with the "proven faith" thing?
how to prove? by works, right?
but the proof does not show the heart (the attitude), so it remains unproven, because only God knows the heart, right?
so what's "proven faith", how to prove, to whom to prove to, and who can validate that it is proven....?
footnote: i am not questioning catholic beliefs and practices.... in case i am misunderstood again.
Understanding problem again and comprehenion problem again.....I said I told you that I am not personal and not attacking anyone in my answer that you response to....
and I think you do get agitated in your reply cause you think I am questioning your personal convictions. I am not.
You agreed that God makes the judgement and so how can one claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
so what's the point with the "proven faith" thing?
how to prove? by works, right?
but the proof does not show the heart (the attitude), so it remains unproven, because only God knows the heart, right?
so what's "proven faith", how to prove, to whom to prove to, and who can validate that it is proven....?
What's the point? No point to you.....but Jesus said in the last judgement that these are citeria to get into sheep or goats.
To me, it is a motivation and inspiration to go on doing good works (loving God) and living a Christian life to the fullest.
Are you doing good works from the heart or is it hair splitting chore to you? If it is hair splitting chore, you will try to avoid them and thus denying Christ.....you may still do perhaps when people are around.....or out of obligation to the church, company whatever....but it is not from your heart. And yes, God will know....
And people around can tell the difference...... like you tell the difference between a sincere person and one that is not.
Why is there a need to validate? Why is there a need to have someone to prove to? Isn't doing good works a commandment of Jesus and isn't that something we need to do as true disciples of Christ? Isn't Christ going to save His true disciples? And isn't doing good works a proof that we have true faith in God? And isn't true faith that saves?
What is so frightening about living a Christian life as true disciple of Christ? Doing good works means sacrifies, pain and discomfort. It means giving (both time and money) and it takes committment. But can it even come close to what Christ has done for us?
And why should works (that will prove true faith) not be a necessary part of salvation?
footnote : you does not necessary means Chin Eng, so read in context.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
What's the point? No point to you.....but Jesus said in the last judgement that these are citeria to get into sheep or goats.
To me, it is a motivation and inspiration to go on doing good works (loving God) and living a Christian life to the fullest.
Are you doing good works from the heart or is it hair splitting chore to you? If it is hair splitting chore, you will try to avoid them and thus denying Christ.....you may still do perhaps when people are around.....or out of obligation to the church, company whatever....but it is not from your heart. And yes, God will know....
And people around can tell the difference...... like you tell the difference between a sincere person and one that is not.
Why is there a need to validate? Why is there a need to have someone to prove to? Isn't doing good works a commandment of Jesus and isn't that something we need to do as true disciples of Christ? Isn't Christ going to save His true disciples? And ins't doing good works a proof that we hav true faith in God? And ins't true faith that saves?
What is so frightening about living a Christian life as true disciple of Christ? Doing good works means sacrifies, pain and discomfort. It means giving (both time and money) and it takes committment. But can it even come close to what Christ has done for us?
And why should works (that will prove true faith) not be a necessary part of salvation?
footnote : you does not necessary means Chin Eng, so read in context.
you seem to like to mimic my style, i take that as a compliment.there's scientifically proven,
there's clinically proven.....
both of these phrases mean that there are methods to verify any claims...
The word proven itself mean: Having been demonstrated or verified without doubt
so what is "proven faith"???
And people around can tell the difference...... like you tell the difference between a sincere person and one that is not.
base on your own perception? is that how so many priests were found guilty of sexual sins? or that some people hero-worship some pastors and give all the money they have to them?
and did you also say that only God knows our hearts? so if ONLY God knows our hearts, how do you really tell if someone is TRULY sincere? how accurate is such perception....
and it goes back to "proven faith" - prove to who? what yardsticks are we using to proclaim such proofs?
you said,
What's the point? No point to you.....but Jesus said in the last judgement that these are citeria to get into sheep or goats.
i beg to differ, it means a lot to know how to prove
.... but seriously, i don't really want to GET INTO SHEEP OR GOATS.... quite kinky....
Understanding problem again and comprehenion problem again.....I said I told you that I am not personal and not attacking anyone in my answer that you response to....
and I think you do get agitated in your reply cause you think I am questioning your personal convictions. I am not.
if i didn't accuse you of being personal, why bring it up in the first place... like you need to MAKE A POINT that you are NOT being personal....
and did i say you are questioning my personal convictions....?anyway, you keep saying that i did not answer your question, fact is i'd given you a passage that i base my belief on.... if you don't want to understand it.... it's ok...
at the end of the day, Jesus told the thief at his side that he is saved.... and in the parable where a rich guy hired workers throughout the whole day and paid them the same amount, and those who work most complained, the rich guy said something like, too bad, that was the agreement, some of these workers hardly did any work but got paid anyway....(forgot which passage, and too tired to search, sorry)... anyway, to me it does not matter. i have long decided that i will do all within my means for God, if at the end of the day he is still not satisfied, too bad.... He's God, He can do whatever He wants with me....
maybe God's plan is for the catholics to work your butt off, and for the protestants, everybody come in.... (just kiddin' - don't get too offended
)... but at the end of the day, i still don't know what's "proven faith". i still don't know how to prove (one man's good deed is another man's kaypoh), who to prove to (do people really care?), who is to declare that your faith is proven, and do you need to continue to have this faith proven?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng: you seem to like to mimic my style, i take
that as a compliment.
there's scientifically proven,
there's clinically proven.....
both of these phrases mean that there are methods to verify any claims...
The word proven itself mean: Having been demonstrated or verified without doubt
so what is "proven faith"???
base on your own perception? is that how so many priests were found guilty of sexual sins? or that some people hero-worship some pastors and give all the money they have to them?
and did you also say that only God knows our hearts? so if ONLY God knows our hearts, how do you really tell if someone is TRULY sincere? how accurate is such perception....
and it goes back to "proven faith" - prove to who? what yardsticks are we using to proclaim such proofs?
mimic your style? ha..ha..ha...
Keep repeating unrelated stuff so that everything get distracted?
If you cannot, or do not know how to answer simple questions, it's ok....I am not forcing answers from you.... if you can help clarify - great, if you cannot, it's ok too.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
The word proven itself mean: Having been demonstrated or verified without doubt
so what is "proven faith"???
You have answered yourself that proven faith is one that has been demosntrated (by works) and verified without doubts (that it is from the hearts) which Christ is the only judge on our last day.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
if i didn't accuse you of being personal, why bring it up in the first place... like you need to MAKE A POINT that you are NOT being personal....
and did i say you are
questioning my personal convictions....?anyway, you keep saying that i did not answer your question, fact is i'd given you a passage that i base my belief on.... if you don't want to understand it.... it's ok...
Why? Because you are getting too personal and I make it clear to you........
I also explained in details why your answer did not answer my question in the first place. If you cannot undertsand (or perhaps don't want to) and / or cannot provide an answer, ... don't....it's ok.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
at the end of the day, Jesus told the thief at his side that he is saved.... and in the parable where a rich guy hired workers throughout the whole day and paid them the same amount, and those who work most complained, the rich guy said something like, too bad, that was the agreement, some of these workers hardly did any work but got paid anyway....(forgot which passage, and too tired to search, sorry)... anyway, to me it does not matter. i have long decided that i will do all within my means for God, if at the end of the day he is still not satisfied, too bad.... He's God, He can do whatever He wants with me....
maybe God's plan is for the catholics to work your butt off, and for the protestants, everybody come in.... (just kiddin' - don't get too offended
)... but at the end of the day, i still don't know what's "proven faith". i still don't know how to prove (one man's good deed is another man's kaypoh), who to prove to (do people really care?), who is to declare that your faith is proven, and do you need to continue to have this faith proven?
To say that the theif have no good works is simply being judgemental.
The parable about the workers is simply to tell us that the rewards from God is the same....for those who came to Christ first (as Christians) or those who come later (convert Christians) - same salvation. There is no point in evagelising if converts do not get the same rewards as early Christians.....It is not about doing works....
God's plan for all Christians are the same..........
maybe except methodist who needed a doctrine that says "The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."
maybe because He knows that they are too lazy and need to be reminded or they may just end up as goats? Kinky or not is up to your imaginations.....(just kiddin' too - don't get too offended
)At the end of the day, proven faith are faith that has works.....simple.
To make it simpler, Christ will save Christians (those who live their lifes as Christians like some social responsiblity doctrines says one should) and not those who claimed they are Christians but whose life does not reflect that of a Christian.
If one does good works and is worried about what others says or thinks....then I cannot help. If it is done from one's heart with the love of God, all these burden will be lighten....When will one need to go on proving their faith? Hmmmmmm maybe that today got and tomorrow don't have attitude again.......
But being a Christian is not a one off event or a one day affair....it's a life long affair. If one live their life as Christians should, on their last day, Christ will see their proven faith with works (done with the heart) and will be rewarded.....
But all said and done, my question is still unanswered.............perhaps never will but "funny stuff" will be repeated over and over again....have fun!
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
footnote: i am not questioning catholic beliefs and practices.... in case i am misunderstood again.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:footnote : you does not necessary means Chin Eng, so read in context.
actually you too have been repeating unrelated stuff too.... or haven't you noticed?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:mimic your style? ha..ha..ha...
Keep repeating unrelated stuff so that everything get distracted?
If you cannot, or do not know how to answer simple questions, it's ok....I am not forcing answers from you.... if you can help clarify - great, if you cannot, it's ok too.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You have answered yourself that proven faith is one that has been demosntrated (by works) and verified without doubts (that it is from the hearts) which Christ is the only judge on our last day.
so from this statement may i conclude that Christ is the only judge on our last day?
at this point in time, can i safely say that no one is able to verify "proven faith" until the last day?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually you too have been repeating unrelated stuff too.... or haven't you noticed?
aiyah...forget to include " in case i am misunderstood again" .....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:at this point in time, can i safely say that no one is able to verify "proven faith" until the last day?
Why not?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i have long decided that i will do all within my means for God, if at the end of the day he is still not satisfied, too bad.... He's God, He can do whatever He wants with me....
Here's how you can...
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
What I am seeking to understand is how can faith that is unproven yet (i.e. with no works to show yet) saves when we (again maybe not you) agrees that only true faith in Christ saves? And we (again maybe not you) agrees that the way to tell them apart is from the fruits or works....
Then, you agreed that only God can judge and how can one then claimed to be saved? Who made that judgement ?
Again, I am not making personal attack or the theory.......I am only trying to make sense and logic out of this....perhaps, something is missing that will piece them up.....and that is why I am asking.
Is what I am seeking......
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
To say that the theif have no good works is simply being judgemental.!
so the other thief didn't do any good works...
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. "
43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
seems to me both criminals were sentenced to death for crimes they have commited... and it was because of the plea of second criminal to Christ to remember him when he enter his kingdom that was the saving grace for him..... nothing here mentions good works whatsoever.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:The parable about the workers is simply to tell us that the rewards from God is the same....for those who came to Christ first (as Christians) or those who come later (convert Christians) - same salvation. There is no point in evagelising if converts do not get the same rewards as early Christians.....It is not about doing works....
God's plan for all Christians are the same..........
what's (as Christians) and what's (convert Christian)? Everyone's a convert Christian nowadays. Yeah, same salvation.... some don't need to do too much....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:maybe except methodist who needed a doctrine that says "The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."
well, here's another look at the Methodist discipline:
The official United Methodist doctrine is this:
When a person repents of sin and trusts in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, that person is forgiven of sin and receives the gift of eternal life (right relationship with God). The Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person, teaching and equipping him or her to he a disciple of Christ, and confirming that the person is indeed a child of God.Article IX, The Articles of Religion, The Book of Discipline:
“We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only, is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.”Article IX, The Confession of Faith, The Book of Discipline:
“We believe we are never accounted righteous before God through our works or merit, but that penitent sinners are justified or accounted righteous before God only by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.”We believe regeneration is the renewal of man in righteousness through Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, whereby we are made partakers of the divine nature and experience newness of life. By this new birth the believer becomes reconciled to God and is enabled to serve him with the will and the affections.
“We believe, although we have experienced regeneration, it is possible to depart from grace and fall into sin; and we may even then, by the grace of God, be renewed in righteousness.”
http://www.bethany-umc.com/AboutUs/methodistbeliefs.htm
Q: How do Methodists understand the grace of God?
A: The following information from reflects a Methodist understanding of grace, from The People Called Methodists: The Heritage, Life and Mission of The Methodist Church in Singapore.
One of the distinctive insights which the Methodist Church inherited from its founder, John Wesley, is a comprehensive view of the grace of God. Pervasive in all of creation, grace reveals God’s purpose to heal and restore humanity from the disorder of sin.
John Wesley defined grace as that free and undeserved love and mercy which reconciles the sinner to God, through the merits of Christ. By grace, estranged sinners are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, enabling the pardoned and reconciled sinner to do what would otherwise be impossible.
But grace also transforms, and for Wesley, this expresses the essence of the Gospel of salvation that was the heartbeat of his preaching ministry. The God of grace is love and the grace of God is the demonstration of that indescribable love freely showered upon all humanity.
While the grace of God is essentially undivided, the saving activity of grace can be seen in these five phases of the work of the Holy Spirit:- Prevenient Grace – that comes even before the sinner has full knowledge of God, drawing him to repentance and healing;
- Justifying Grace – initiating the first stage of salvation, in which God pardons the sinner who trusts in Christ and begins a healing process;
- Sanctifying Grace – whereby the pardoned sinner is restored to the image of God;
- Perfecting Grace – initiating a further stage of salvation, by which Christians are so enabled to love God that they are free from accidental sins; and
- Triumphant grace – the power of God to glorify believers who, by faith, receive the Kingdom of God.
http://www.methodist.org.sg/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=206&Itemid=145#god
if you have any issue with understanding the methodist discipline, i encourage you to write to the the Methodist Church in Singapore for their learned answer. as far as i can see, my views echoes the fundamental beliefs of the methodist discipline. in the meantime, i believe i am going through the 5 different phases....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:At the end of the day, proven faith are faith that has works.....simple.
To make it simpler, Christ will save Christians (those who live their lifes as Christians like some social responsiblity doctrines says one should) and not those who claimed they are Christians but whose life does not reflect that of a Christian.
If one does good works and is worried about what others says or thinks....then I cannot help. If it is done from one's heart with the love of God, all these burden will be lighten....When will one need to go on proving their faith? Hmmmmmm maybe that today got and tomorrow don't have attitude again.......
But being a Christian is not a one off event or a one day affair....it's a life long affair. If one live their life as Christians should, on their last day, Christ will see their proven faith with works (done with the heart) and will be rewarded.....
but at the end of the day, "proven faith" can only be proven in the face of God.... by then, we are not able to look at each other and say "naa naa naa po po", see i told ja so..... (sorry, more funny stuff)
so what "proven faith" are we talking about while we are roaming the earth?
as i said, everything hinges on what happens in front of God.... and by then, it does not matter to each other which way it swings....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Why not?
then please share on how one can have "proven faith"..... if not in the face of God.... -
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Is what I am seeking......
the thief.... but then again, i believe catholic doctrine considers that as an unique case. -
reality of the matter is:
if anyone truly wish to learn about salvation with or without works, one can always google.... there are plenty of websites promoting both views.
i tried to google "proven faith" and mostly the hits are about a book written by one guy... so i still don't know what "proven faith" is....
can anyone else comment on this?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
so the other thief didn't do any good works...
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. "
43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
seems to me both criminals were sentenced to death for crimes they have commited... and it was because of the plea of second criminal to Christ to remember him when he enter his kingdom that was the saving grace for him..... nothing here mentions good works whatsoever.....
Nowhere did the story tell us that the theif did not do any good works......and to says he has not done any (in his life) is just being judgemental. What you quoted in red is to says that the thieves desrve to die but Christ have done nothing wrong and should not even be at the cross.....
And the fact that he stood up for Jesus and speak out on what is right is already a good deed in itself............